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Reflections on the Vorlon

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This is developing into an interesting conversation. One thing that JMS said that struck me is that Kosh had, in a sense, "gone native". I can't find the quote, but it is an important part of his character. He came to view the Younger Races in a way that was very different than any other Vorlon - and Sheridan, not Sinclair or Valen, was the real catalyst for his change of heart

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Kosh gone native sounds like commentary from the Techno-mage books.
 
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It did greet "Sinclair" (the Minbari assassin) by partly or fully dropping its defenses, with a gesture which Lyta subjectively perceived as handshaking. The words, true, were never verbally said, but the greeting was unusual and indicated a high degree of trust.

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I am gathering from this, and previous comments, that Kosh didn't know from Valen that he was going to be the target of an assassination attempt?

I always assumed that the reason Kosh goes to Sinclair as he does, and exposes a 'hand' to 'Sinclair' is that he was aware what was going to happen to him, that Valen told him 1000 years ago (as he told the Vorlons that the humans would be important in the future - cf 'In The Beginning', where the Vorlons told Dukhat to seek them out - this could only have come from Valen).

Does this seem right?

Oatley1
 
He certainly did tell something.
The difficult part: how much did he tell?
There is pretty much no way to deduct that.
 
Well, Valen couldn't have told Kosh too much, or been too specific, or Kosh wouldn't have been surprised at who he saw upon coming aboard - and I think the thought "Entil'Zha Valen" (not, "Ah, Sinclair, whom I've been briefed about") is an indication that he was surprised. On the approach from space he would certainly have recognized the design of B5, if Delenn had not already gotten word to the Vorlons about that, but I don't think he - or they - knew Valen's Human identity until he arrived in the airlock. (And then he was out of commission for the rest of the movie, and in no position to tell anybody, which may explain why the Vorlons decided to extradite him.)

As for the Vorlons letting someone reach their homeworld, and the problem of witnesses and so forth - had Kosh died I don't think the Vorlons planned to try Sinclair under the U.S. or EarthGov constitutions, or the British Common law. I think they planned to get the hearing transcript from G'Kar, find Sinclair guilty and execute him. No witnesses needed, thank you very much. (Except possibly Lyta, whom they certainly would have wanted if they found out that she'd scanned a Vorlon.)

Regards,

Joe
 
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As for the Vorlons letting someone reach their homeworld, and the problem of witnesses and so forth - had Kosh died I don't think the Vorlons planned to try Sinclair under the U.S. or EarthGov constitutions, or the British Common law. I think they planned to get the hearing transcript from G'Kar, find Sinclair guilty and execute him. No witnesses needed, thank you very much. (Except possibly Lyta, whom they certainly would have wanted if they found out that she'd scanned a Vorlon.)



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A telepath's trial like in "The Corps is mother, the Corps is father"! A quick scan to determine guilt and then straight to punishment.

I suspect that the Vorlon's did know who Sinclair was, but what they did not know was what his pre-Valen brain signature felt like. Any human or Minbari would have gotten through that test but say a Drazi would have been spotted.
 
There is also an nice parallel here...

Vorlons come to Babylon 4 and are greeted by Valen.

Vorlons come to Babylon 5 and are greeted by Valen.

As well as recoginsing him as Valen, Kosh may have also thought that Sinclair was presenting Babylon 5 to the Vorlons for use in the up coming Shadow War, as he had done with B4.
 
I have a pet theory about the Kosh/Valen friendship, one which is probably hideously at odds with JMS's vision. I'll tell it anyway.

Back before we met Lorien, JMS was continually telling us that Kosh was "old enough to have been friends with Valen." We then find out that Valen was only a thousand years back and Kosh is far, far older than that. So why'd JMS say what he said? To surruptitiously tell us about the Kosh/Valen relationship. This is pretty well known, I think, but I restate it as background.

Why, then does Kosh become friends with this vastly younger being? I think it is because Valen sees as the Vorlons see. The Vorlons apparently have some insight into the future ("If you go to Z'ha'dum, you will die," among other hints) and Valen is, of course, a mine of information about what's going to happen. So Valen is a bit closer to the Vorlons in his mindset than the rest of the younger ones are, and this forms the basis for the relationship.

Just an idea, but one that makes sense to me.
 
I don't think Kosh knew the future he just knew that if anyone goes to Zahadum and doesn't join the shadows that they will die.

about their friendship I suppose it has to do with seeing the best of the humans who are not like any other race kosh has ever met. You just can't help yourself liking Valen.
 
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I don't think Kosh knew the future he just knew that if anyone goes to Zahadum and doesn't join the shadows that they will die.

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And Kosh wasn't so sure Sheridan was going to die anyway. He thought he could keep him alive if they went together (though Kosh may have thought that he himself would have to die to save Sheridan.) Remember this conversation?

KOSH
But there is a price to pay. I will not be there to help you when you go to Z'ha'dum.

SHERIDAN
You already said if I go to Z'ha'dum, I'll die.

KOSH
Yes, now.

The implication is that Sheridan would not have died at Z'ha'dum if Kosh was not about to sacrifice himself by directing the Vorlon fleet to give the Younger Races a victory. And it is clear from "Interludes and Examinations" that Kosh had no foreknowledge of his own death - he only made his plans after his conversation with Sheridan in the corridor, and even then didn't commit until later because he was afraid of the consequences he knew would follow. (As he admits to Sheridan in the guise of Sheridan, Sr.)

As for Valen, he didn't know anything about "the future" beyond the events that Sinclair witnessed up through his time jaunt in "WWE Pt. 2" He was hardly Vorlon-like in any respect.

However, I do think that Kosh was already beginning to look at the younger races in a different light by the time of Valen's war, and that his relationship with Valen reinforced his new thinking. This made possible his later, much closer relationship with John Sheridan.

Regards,

Joe
 
Hmmm. We have totally different takes on that scene in "Interludes," in association with a few others.

I always thought that Kosh knew that he would die at the hands of the Shadows, but that he didn't really want to admit it and tried to avoid it. When he spoke to Sheridan about Z'ha'dum the first time he was acting on his foreknowledge, knowing that eventually he, Kosh, would die to help build the alliance. The second time he gave a hint as to why Sheridan was doomed to die all along.

JMS wrote something about this. It's on the Lurker's Guide under JMS Speaks for Interludes and Examinations. He said something about how Kosh just didn't want to admit that it was his time to die, and was trying to fight it until Sheridan made him realize what it was he was doing. At that point he resigned himself to death. He knew the Shadows were coming for him; he could have fled (the Shadows would never have gotten him on the Vorlon homeworld) but stayed to ensure the Shadows didn't try for Sheridan or Delenn instead.

This may be totally wrong, I don't know. But I find it odd that the Centauri would have knowledge of the future and the Vorlons not. Unless the Centauri were altered in some way by their old contact with the Shadows, long ago . . . .
 
Interesting theory but I think Kosh just knew that it was inevitable that Sheridan would go to Z'ha'dum and since it was unlikely he would join the Shadows then he would die.

If you remember when Delenn & Lyta try to persuade Ulkesh to join them on a rescue mission, he says that Sheridan has "Opened an unexpected door" implying that the Vorlons didn't really know what would happen when Sheridan went there.

I also think that the Vorlons give the appearance that they are confident in their knowledge of the future for a few reasons:

1. They know a lot of things. I have noticed a few times that Kosh was 'hovering' in the background when important conversations were going on and remember that they are also telepathic (but to what degree we don't really know).

2. They manipulate the younger races so in many ways they are architects of their own 'prophecies'. Saying that Sheridan will die if he goes to Z'ha'dum & then steering him on a course to fight the Shadows will ultimately end up with Sheridan wanting to go there and fulfilling the prophecy!
 
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If you remember when Delenn & Lyta try to persuade Ulkesh to join them on a rescue mission, he says that Sheridan has "Opened an unexpected door" implying that the Vorlons didn't really know what would happen when Sheridan went their.

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I disagree. Ulkesh's statement about the unexpected door pretty clearly refers to the fact that Sheridan had just nuked the Shadow's capital city, a kind of direct assault probably never attempted before. It changes forever the rules of engagement and allows the Vorlons (and the Shadows) to strike for outright victory, instead of their traditional stalemate.

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2. They manipulate the younger races so in many ways they are architects of their own 'prophecies'. Saying that Sheridan will die if he goes to Z'ha'dum & then steering him on a course to fight the Shadows will ultimately end up with Sheridan wanting to go there and fulfilling the prophecy!

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I don't think Kosh intended for Sheridan to go to Z'ha'dum, I think he accepted the fact that Sheridan was going to go, regardless of what he and Delenn told him. I think the original Vorlon plan was the same as it always was - find a charismatic leader or two, a place to rally resistance, put together an alliance and drive the Shadows back.

Sending Sheridan, the new Valen, to Z'ha'dum to get killed could not have been a part of this plan. I think Kosh hoped to postpone the trip indefinitely (like until the final fleet assault the drove the Shadows from their world.) Later he thought that he could save Sheridan (to continue the war along the old lines) if he went with him to Z'ha'dum. Ultimately he saw the wisdom in letting Sheridan fight the war his own way, and stepped aside in the most dramatic way possible. Kosh, paragon of order, decided to roll the dice and take the consequences because he saw the possibility of finally ending the war.

But I don't think any of this crystalized for Kosh until Sheridan rebelled against him and confronted him in "I&E". It was only then that Kosh understood that Sheridan was right, and that the only way to really get to the goal that Kosh now wanted was to stop manipulating, and let one of the Younger Races start to guide their own destiny. (This is also why he cooperated in destroying Ulkesh later.)

I still don't think the Vorlons had any kind of precognitive ability. It doesn't even seem to be universal (or entirely reliable) among the Centauri. "A vision that comes true is a prophecy, one that doesn't is a metaphor" As for why an advanced race would lack a power an "inferior" one has, why should evolution work that way. There are plenty of "inferior" species on Earth that have abilities - like flight, or the ability to breathe water or re-grow limbs - that Humans lack.

Regards,

Joe
 
I've always been fond of the notion that after a time Kosh decided to end the war by turning on his own people to an extent. So rather than trying to save a portion of himself for his own kind (which may have been something Ulkesh was looking for when *he* arrived on B5), he transferred over to Sheridan and went looking for Lorien. He probably knew that Lorien was on Z'ha'dum.

This is gonna get complicated, I'm afraid, so please, bear with me.

Kosh says two things in the episode "Z'ha'dum." The first is the famous "If you go . . . you will die" line. But observe closely. Sheridan has already decided to go, and has decided to go *because he thinks he's going to die.* WANTS to die, in fact. In his message to Delenn he tells her that he's going to try to prevent the damage done to Centauri Prime that he saw in his flash-forward. He knows several things from his trip through time: one, he apparently is alive during that time, as he and Delenn have had a son, and two, Centauri Prime is in a real mess. He also knows from Kosh that if he goes to Z'ha'dum, he will die. So, here's his plan: go to Z'ha'dum, take down as many Shadows as possible, and die in the process. Thereby guaranteeing that he will not be alive to go to Centauri Prime, and possibly ensuring that Centauri Prime will not get so wasted.

So what does all this mean? Kosh's first comment in "Z'ha'dum" is *reinforcement.* He's encouraging Sheridan to go. Why? Well, let's see . . . #2 comment is "Jump. Jump NOW!" Why jump? To fall into the pit . . . what's in the pit? Lorien.

It's a rather tenuous theory, I known, but there's some evidence here. Kosh finally decides that the time has come to end the war. He knows that Sheridan is pivotal ("You are the hand," in the famous Kosh-inspired dream sequence). He also knows that he can't trust any of the Shadows or any of his own kind to help Sheridan end that war. So he brings Sheridan to the one person who would want to help him, and the one being left who's older than either one of the bickering races.



(Pant pant pant) Okay, that took a while. To those of you who made it this far, thanks for putting up with me. Now start chewing it to pieces.
 
Hey just a second... no-one bothered to answer my question on the Narn image!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
Kosh was in all probability not the leader of the Vorlons, but he obviously was important considering the role he played in the Earth/Minbari war and on Babylon 5. He was obviously a key player in Vorlon circles considering that he was given such important assignments.

The reason why he was more sympathetic towards the younger races is due to the fact that he has spent quite a lot of time with them. We even see him developing a sense of humour in 'Matters of honour'. Also, Vorlons do have different personalities too just like humans. Ulkesh was obviously more aloof and had different beliefs as to how the younger races should be treated.

As for him getting the Vorlons to intervene directly , this could be because he has friends in high places, has a lot of power of his own or simply because the other Vorlons trusted him. This last option seems most likely, he has afterall had most hands on contact with the younger races and undoubtably knows the situation regarding the Army of Light much better than most other Vorlons, so it is reasonable that his government would listen to his advice.

As for why Kosh was killed, simple, the Shadows wanted to punish the Vorlons for breaking one of the last remaining rules of engagement and kosh, being on Babylon 5 was the most vunerable to attack. it would be very difficult for them to kill someone as high ranking on the Vorlon homeworld.

As for why the Vorlons attacked the Shadows when they did, this is not because kosh was their leader, or in retaliation for kosh's death, but because Sheridan bombed Z'ha'dum, thus crippling the Shadows defensive capabilities, at least for a short while and leaving them vunerable. ulkesh says as much to Delenn when he says that sheridan has "opened an unexpected door."

the answers are all there in the text if you look for them rather than making up wild, and unfounded theories.
 
IIRC Lyta specifically said that the Vorlons were very upset about Kosh's death, that it had been a long time since one of them had died.

I think this might have added to the momentum towards the final direct conflict.
 
All right, Galahad, I'll give your question a shot.

We have no idea who the Narn is supposed to be (other than Kosh) -- nothing was clearly stated, I believe. However, with the symmetry that runs through the whole show, I expect that it really is G'Quan's image. Think; we never see any pictures of G'Quan, and I imagine that his image in Narn society is rather like Jesus in ours -- a rough approximation, with many common themes but nothing really specific. So the Narns don't know what G'Quan looked like, I doubt the Shadows bothered to record his image, leaving one race who would remember the image of the great leader. It's even possible that only Kosh knows who G'Lan was -- the other Vorlons might not care!

As to why Kosh would use the image... well, Kosh likes symmetry as much as the rest of us. And it makes a nice transition -- G'Kar's father, G'Quan, G'Lan, on up the scale.

That seems rather long-winded... ah well. Hope it did something.
 
Perhaps simply... Kosh has played the part of G'Lan before?
 
I think the implication was that Kosh IS G'Lan -- just as he is Valeria, and all the other angelic types. Sheridan didn't give Kosh a name from human mythology, though. Too many to choose from? Kosh could be Gabriel and Ulkesh could be Michael (who was, as I recall, of a more violent cast).
 
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