S1 Review and Image Problems at tvshowsondvd.com

[Charly]

A review of the "Signs and Portents" DVD set has been posted at tvshowsondvd.com, and it has some interesting comments about the video quality of the discs.

In almost every episode there were one or two scenes that looked extremely poor. I'm talking worse than VHS here, and they stand out like a sore thumb. I started paying attention to these scenes, and came to this conclusion: the prints for some scenes must have been damaged so badly that they couldn't be used, so they were forced to use footage from a tape source. Since the tape would have a 1.33:1 image, it must be blown up and cropped for the 1.78 aspect ratio. Starting with an footage from a tape is going to result in a poor image, but blowing it up is going to make it worse.

The complete review also has some images to back up this theory.

 

[Recoil]

I wonder what others would have to say on this. I have only seen 2 episodes of it so far since I wont get my set until Christmas, and my widescreen TV till the 21st, but I suppose its possible. If it had to happen to any season, Season 1 would be the best bet. Later seasons so much seemed to change in picture quality just watching it on TV --- at least that was my perception.

 

[hypatia]

I'm more bothered so far by the pops and strange oddities on the soundtrack. I have not gotten to the episodes yet that have the biggest visual problems.

 

[Scouse Rob]

In almost every episode there were one or two scenes that looked extremely poor. I'm talking worse than VHS here, and they stand out like a sore thumb.

Not on my 28" widescreen TV they didn't! /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Sporadically, across a few of the first 5 or 6 episodes, there was a noticeable grainy effect on certain shots (no doubt for the reasons the reviewer gives) but the only times this ever reached a distracting, "extremely poor", level was in two episodes:

1) 'Soul Hunter': Scatchtastic! (There was a large blue line running down the screen for certain shots.)

2) 'And The Sky Full Of Stars': In which the picture quality was terrible as a result of the numerous shots that are stretched horizontally from fullscreen to widescreen. This is the only episode that uses chubbycam. Thank goodness. (I noticed that the reviewers 'thorough explanation' of the picture problems does not make this point. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif)


The reviewer must have a fantastic VHS player to suggest that the picture quality consistently dropped below the standard of VHS. /forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

I'm more bothered so far by the pops and strange oddities on the soundtrack. I have not gotten to the episodes yet that have the biggest visual problems.

I didn't notice any soundtrack problems at all. (Though I only use the built in speakers of my TV.)

If you're past 'Soul Hunter' (Ep 2) then the chubbycam stretching in 'And The Sky Full Of Stars' should be the only thing worse than what you've already watched. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Kribu]

'And The Sky Full Of Stars': In which the picture quality was terrible as a result of the numerous shots that are stretched horizontally from fullscreen to widescreen. This is the only episode that uses chubbycam. Thank goodness. (I noticed that the reviewers 'thorough explanation' of the picture problems does not make this point. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif )

You have R2 DVDs, right? I suppose the reviewer was American, having/watching R1 discs. This problem was only on the R2 and R4 (PAL) set. If he didn't see it, since it wasn't on his discs, he can't have made this point either.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

This is the only episode that uses chubbycam.

what is "chubbycam"?

i thought that the show was filmed in widescreen ratio. there wouldn't have been any fullscreen stretching involved.

i have a region 1 and a medium high level panasonic dvd player. on our 28" tv they only eps that had any noticeable visual glitches were MotFL and SH. otherwise, it had great quality. in fact, because a friend of mine was complaining about the quality, i went through just about every eps pausing to check the image.

i don't know how DVDs are produced, but i do know they get produced in batches. maybe some batches were better than others (e.g. the end of evangelion DVD fiasco).

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

The "chubbycam" line refers to a glitch on the PAL version of the DVD for "And the Sky Full of Stars". The CGI composite shots were taken from 4:3 masters and just "stretched" horizontally to fill the frame. This shouldn't have been done.

i thought that the show was filmed in widescreen ratio. there wouldn't have been any fullscreen stretching involved.

Not quite. The show was shot in Super35, with both the 1.33:1 and 1:78:1 live action frames being extracted from the oversized S35 frame. Thus both versions are "cropped". James Cameron is fond of the S35 process and used it in films like Terminator 2 and Titanic. The CGI and CGI composite shots were rendered only at 1.33:1 for various reasons. These are therefore cropped a bit at the top and bottom - as they were designed to be.

I've watched the whole season several times now on a 56" widescreen set and as far as I'm concerned it has never looked and sounded better. The minor film scratches and the slight softness of some of the CGI do not outweigh the more "movie like" composition of the rest of the 90% or so of the show that does not consist of CGI or CGI composite shots. (And which makes the whole notion that we're getting "half widescreen" so ludicrous. If the show were made up of half CGI and have pure live action this idea might have some merit, but the show isn't and the idea doesn't.)

Regards,

Joe

 

[KoshN]

<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino: </font color>
I've watched the whole season several times now on a 56" widescreen set and as far as I'm concerned it has never looked and sounded better. The minor film scratches and the slight softness of some of the CGI do not outweigh the more "movie like" composition of the rest of the 90% or so of the show that does not consist of CGI or CGI composite shots. (And which makes the whole notion that we're getting "half widescreen" so ludicrous. If the show were made up of half CGI and have pure live action this idea might have some merit, but the show isn't and the idea doesn't.)

The show consisted of Live Action and CGI/Composite CGI. So, the term "half & half" is appropriate. It's Live Action 16:9 and Cropped 4:3 CGI/Composite CGI. They're calling it "Widescreen" but it isn't all widescreen. The only thing that's ludicrous here is the assumption that "half & half" is only appropriate is half the frames are Live Action and the other half are CGI/Composite CGI. B5 was groundbreaking in it's use of CGI, and those frames are very important to the look of the show. If there's anything that should have been protected from being messed with, it's the CGI/Composite CGI. The Live Action never suffered from 4:3 treatment. The CGI/Composite CGI does, and that stuff CAN'T be re-rendered.

Oh, and I wasn't reading this thread. I came across that little slam by accident. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[FlipperPA]

Not quite. The show was shot in Super35, with both the 1.33:1 and 1:78:1 live action frames being extracted from the oversized S35 frame. Thus both versions are "cropped". James Cameron is fond of the S35 process and used it in films like Terminator 2 and Titanic. The CGI and CGI composite shots were rendered only at 1.33:1 for various reasons. These are therefore cropped a bit at the top and bottom - as they were designed to be.

I've watched the whole season several times now on a 56" widescreen set and as far as I'm concerned it has never looked and sounded better. The minor film scratches and the slight softness of some of the CGI do not outweigh the more "movie like" composition of the rest of the 90% or so of the show that does not consist of CGI or CGI composite shots. (And which makes the whole notion that we're getting "half widescreen" so ludicrous. If the show were made up of half CGI and have pure live action this idea might have some merit, but the show isn't and the idea doesn't.)

You know Joe, you have the patience of a saint. I've only been posting / hanging on here for about half a year now, and have seen you give the same exact explanation of the film transfer, 4:3 versus widescreen, and process about 20 times. And you manage to not flip your lid!

That being said, I've got a pretty good set up as well; good DVD player, 57" 16 by 9 Toshiba, composite cables, etc, etc... and I agree Bab-5 has *never* looked this good. That includes digital cable directly to TiVo at highest quality, widescreen VHS taped, full screen VHS taped...

-Tim

 

[Scouse Rob]

You have R2 DVDs, right? I suppose the reviewer was American, having/watching R1 discs. This problem was only on the R2 and R4 (PAL) set. If he didn't see it, since it wasn't on his discs, he can't have made this point either.

He mentions it as a fault at the bottom of his review. What I meant was that he didn't make it clear that this 'chubbycam' horizontal stretch only happens in one episode (And not at all in Region 1 apparently). From the review:

There's also this shot which is a 4:3 image stretched to the side; probably just one they forgot to crop the tops and bottoms off.

So it seems that it is in fact a region 2 (or 4?) review (although this is also not made clear, as far as I can see!), either that or he is using rather dubious 'proofs' to make his points.

The review appears to me to be overly critical and the lengths to which the reviewer goes to 'justify' his views appear to infer that the problems were much greater than they actually were, even in the region 2 release. That's why I slated it a little.

Its good news if the horizontal stretch problem has been eradicated from the region 1 release.

A friend of mine with a multi-region player has not bought the S1 set yet, so perhaps the region 1 release may be a better for him, and other people in region 2,4 with multiregion players?

Too late for me though. Not that I'm too bothered, only one episode with a major distraction and that in the quick cuts during the final chase scene. I'm content enough with that. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

(And yes I've also seen poor Joseph DeMartino having to explain the screen ratio/clipping process ad infinitum and making a very good job of it.

Definitely overdue a saintly patience award. Or perhaps an upcoming trip to the loony bin, babbling about 4:3 Cropped CGI Elephants /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif)

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

So it seems that it is in fact a region 2 (or 4?) review (although this is also not made clear, as far as I can see!), either that or he is using rather dubious 'proofs' to make his points.

No, this is definitely an R1 review. The shot he's using isn't from "And the Sky Full of Stars", it is from "Survivors" and it is the only shot in the R1 set where they stretched a composite image rather than cropping it. (It lasts only a few seconds on screen, as Garibaldi crosses the casino in search of Londo.) This isn't something that happens on every CG/composite shot as it does on the PAL version of "Sky". In fact, this error exists in all widescreen versions of the show, including the broadcast master that airs on the U.S. Sci-Fi Channel. They either made a mistake in the original hi-def master or they found that there was no way to crop the shot without either cutting off the top of Garibaldi's head in the background or the expensive holographic game in the foreground. (In the still frame shown it looks like there's plenty of room, but I suspect the holograms move around a lot during the shot and that this would have been a problem) They just didn't plan it out right on the stage and in post, and when it came time to do the widescreen version I think somebody decided to cheat for the few seconds of this scene rather than damage it by cropping.

And thanks for the kind words all. I'm fairly even-tempered as long as I stay out of the political threads. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Regards,

Joe

 

[Scouse Rob]

No, this is definitely an R1 review. The shot he's using isn't from "And the Sky Full of Stars", it is from "Survivors" and it is the only shot in the R1 set where they stretched a composite image rather than cropping it.

Guess I should check my facts before assuming things. /forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

That shot in 'Survivors' must have got past me during the first run, so I assumed it was in 'And the Sky....'

I think I'll run away and hide. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[zantarous]

And thanks for the kind words all. I'm fairly even-tempered as long as I stay out of the political threads.

I too have seen Joe give the same answers again and agin and not only on this site. Come on Joe admit it you have a word doc at home which you just paste and copy from now or do you really type it out every single time?

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Come on Joe admit it you have a word doc at home which you just paste and copy from

Actually I used to have a couple of word docs for just that purpose, but lost them in a hard drive crash. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Besides, most of the time it was faster to type things from memory anyway, or the specifics of the discussion required substantial rewording, so it wasn't worth it. Besides, I'm a pretty fast typist. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Regards,

Joe

 

[GeoKuutio]

I know exactly what he means on that rewiev with those poor quality. I have noticed it myself too.. Those scenes with poor quality.. well.. they are not so "color rich" and they aren't accurate like other scenes. I'm watching DVD on my Computer with Samtron 51s. Maybe they aren't so noticable on TV, but certainly they are easy to notice on tft monitor.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

You know Joe, you have the patience of a saint. I've only been posting / hanging on here for about half a year now, and have seen you give the same exact explanation of the film transfer, 4:3 versus widescreen, and process about 20 times. And you manage to not flip your lid!

i'm a newbie to the board, so apologies for having to rehash this. i also appreciate the information because i didn't know about it.

i think some people will complain if the image/sound quality is not absolutely _perfect_. personally, i'm thrilled with just having them on DVD since my vhs copies (which i taped off the the air and are getting old and stretched) are dying. and, they don't have commercials and the PTEN symbol in the corner!

 

[Sinclair]

personally, i'm thrilled with just having them on DVD

I agree completely! As long as they are decent quality (they've been great IMO) and as long as I am able to watch them on my DVD player, I am a happy man. It took them this long to start making them but it was well worth the wait.

 

[Oatley1]

Finally got my hands on the R4 release.

The physical discs are fine, no scratches on them, and all within their holders.

With regards to the images themselves, they are much better than my VHS versions, so I am thrilled. Granted, my setup isn't the most "sophistimacated" (as Homer would put it), but it does the job.
/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[anlashok1]

So far I've not seen, or heard, any of the problems that has been posted here. I've gone throught the first twelve episodes so far and they've all been very good. Perhaps because I'm more interested in the story line, I've not seen the reported "blems."

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I've just watched "Survivors" again having read this review, and interestingly my R2 copy of the DVD doesn't have this scene stretched - it has been cropped properly to remove the space above Garibaldi's head and part of the table where the holographic knights are fighting. Just as Joe D said, there was plenty of room to crop it to widescreen aspect ratio.

I guess this is one instance where the R2 discs are better than the R1 version (woo hoo ! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif ), although whether it makes up for the mistakes in "Sky full of Stars" is a topic for debate. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif