Season 5: List of grievances

[Republibot 3.0]

While I was sorry to see Lennier's momentary betrayal, I wasn't surprised at all and didn't feel that it came out of the blue, either. When you see Sheridan appear on the catwalk in 'The Summoning', there's a clear shot of Lennier and he's *not* happy to see Sheridan alive at all. All the emphasis later on about how you have to do things for the right reasons or it becomes corrupted is a signpost that Lennier joining the Rangers wasn't at all the 'calling of his heart' but running away from having to see Delenn and Sheridan together.

Yeah, but he was also all about the self sacrifice. It was an inherent part of who he was. To break that so abruptly in Season 5 right at the end seemed as forced as if The Terminator stopped to pick a daisy and then took Sarah Connor's hand and the two of them went skipping off into the sunset, happily ever after.

Breaking character for a character is a bad thing. Gradually changing character is a good thing. If we'd seen Lannier gradually change that'd be one thing, and I'd be on board for it. what we got was slapdash.

 

[Springer]

While I was sorry to see Lennier's momentary betrayal, I wasn't surprised at all and didn't feel that it came out of the blue, either. When you see Sheridan appear on the catwalk in 'The Summoning', there's a clear shot of Lennier and he's *not* happy to see Sheridan alive at all. All the emphasis later on about how you have to do things for the right reasons or it becomes corrupted is a signpost that Lennier joining the Rangers wasn't at all the 'calling of his heart' but running away from having to see Delenn and Sheridan together.

I'd forgotten about that moment in The Summoning. I interpreted it as a look of resignation on Lennier, but in hindsight it could come across as something much darker, wishing Sheridan were dead.

Lennier's journey was much like Franklin's in season three really. There's something he can't deal with in his life so he leaves to try and find himself, only to realise at the end that he's just running away. But maybe you need to actually run away first before you can realise what it is you are running from. Franklin found that he had always had the answers; I'm not sure Lennier's fate means he can say the same thing.

 

[Springer]

The Drakh/Centauri thing works better, and I genuinely enjoy most of it, but I found it rather annoying that WE knew more than the cast did. Generally we and the cast were figuring things out at the same time. Us being given the answer, and them taking FOREVER to catch up made them look tediously slow on the uptake.

That's interesting, I'd not looked at it that way before. I remember when watching it the first time around having a distinct feeling that it was like watching a car crash - you knew what was going to happen, and there was nothing you could do to save these characters from what was going to happen. I felt desperately sorry for Londo and for the Alliance - they'd come through so much together and just when it looks like everyone might finally be getting on with one another, Centauri Prime falls apart. It was hard to watch because we knew what was coming and we cared for these characters and didn't want it to happen. A proper tragedy. But you have a point, perhaps a tad more mystery might have held more viewers' interest.

 

[Jan]

It shouldn't be about someone teaching Lyta to be a leader, she should have already figured it out on her own by then.

Not wanting to sound combative but...really? How?!? One doesn't simply go from being a doormat to a resistance leader without some catalyst, some defining moment. Babylon 5 is always about process and there had to be something that would bring Lyta to the point where she could break all of her conditioning, not just by the Psi Corps, but by the Vorlons. And, typical of Lyta, it had to be something outside of herself.

Jan

 

[JonFrain]

I agree that it would have been better to show clear hints of Lennier's jealousy over the years. It did seem out of character to me at the time that he would let Sheridan die over his envy. He had to know that Delenn would never see him as a potential mate.

Season 5 was mostly a mess in retrospect. Even the Centauri/Drakh arc didn't feel as well produced or written as past seasons. Everything felt rushed and not well thought out. The effects seemed cheaper as well.

I actually enjoyed the tie in book series (Centauri, Techno Mage ...) more than the 5th season itself.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Not wanting to sound combative but...really? How?!? One doesn't simply go from being a doormat to a resistance leader without some catalyst, some defining moment. Babylon 5 is always about process and there had to be something that would bring Lyta to the point where she could break all of her conditioning, not just by the Psi Corps, but by the Vorlons. And, typical of Lyta, it had to be something outside of herself.

Jan

No combat taken. Sheridan simply went from loyal Earthforce officer to Grand Rebel Leader. DeLenn went from genocidal rage-monkey to the bridge between worlds. G'Kar and Londo had more gradual transitions, however. There were a number of points that changed them. Arguably Lyta had a number of those points herself, where she was treated like crap, used, abused, thrown away. Basically, if she'd walked in at the start of Season 5 and said to Sheridan, "Mr. President, I want a homeworld for Telepaths. Consider it payment for services rendered. You owe me." Sheridan logically should have said "Yes." Her behavior woudln't have seemed out of character, as we repeatedly saw she resented her treatment.

"Sure thing, Lyta, but it'll take me a while to find a suitable world. I'll give you temporary facilities, and you can bring in as many rogue telepaths as you want. I don't know how long the process of buying a world from the member nations will take, but as soon as it's done, the ISA will start moving you there."

That's an acceptable deal, and reasonable for both sides. And you can keep her on the station and still do a lot of the stuff that needed to be done that season for her arc. She could make some mistakes, she could make some victories, alienate Sheridan in the process, and it ends with her (Possibly with G'kar) heading off to "Psiworld," which we take as a victory, but she's already let out that a war is coming in two years.

Conversely, it seems late in the game to drop 2 characters, demote 2 others to recurring status, and then bring in some new guy to be teaching Lyta to do crap she should already have been learning on her own. It makes her look weak and passive, and it honestly waters down the whole show.

 

[Springer]

Sheridan, Delenn and G'Kar were already in positions of leadership before they came to B5. Sheridan was a war hero and starship captain; Delenn was part of the Grey Council, G'Kar was a resistance fighter on Narn. Even Londo led military campaigns if you believe his bragging in Voice in the Wilderness. They also all had their mentors: Sheridan had his father, his academy teachers and Kosh; Delenn had Dukhat; G'Kar had his father. Lyta needed someone to give her the inspiration and the vision for a homeworld for telepaths. She carried on Byron's work after he died, but I'm not sure she would have thought of it herself if Byron had never been around. The Vorlons changed her capabilities, but it was Byron who changed her mindset and gave her the confidence to use her powers to get what she wanted. Compare the Lyta in Epiphanies that got scolded by Sheridan for sending the self-destruct signal to Z'Ha'Dum to the Lyta in Wheel of Fire who Sheridan literally has to point a gun at to get her to stop. Between those two points was a big change in her character, and that change was Byron. She learned how to bully others with her powers, just like Byron and the telepaths did by scanning the ambassadors and getting all their secrets.

 

[Jan]

No combat taken. Sheridan simply went from loyal Earthforce officer to Grand Rebel Leader.

Over a span of 2.5 years.

DeLenn went from genocidal rage-monkey to the bridge between worlds.

During the course of a 3-year war.

Arguably Lyta had a number of those points herself, where she was treated like crap, used, abused, thrown away. Basically, if she'd walked in at the start of Season 5 and said to Sheridan, "Mr. President, I want a homeworld for Telepaths. Consider it payment for services rendered. You owe me." Sheridan logically should have said "Yes." Her behavior woudln't have seemed out of character, as we repeatedly saw she resented her treatment.

Gotta disagree there. Logically, Sheridan should have laughed at her and said 'Yeah, sure. Where did you get the impression I have access to habitable planets to just give away?' Sheridan headed up an alliance, he didn't take over any of the sovereign governments.

Conversely, it seems late in the game to drop 2 characters, demote 2 others to recurring status, and then bring in some new guy to be teaching Lyta to do crap she should already have been learning on her own. It makes her look weak and passive, and it honestly waters down the whole show.

She *was* weak and passive, that's the whole point. She never would have joined the Mars resistance if she hadn't been obsessed with Kosh and chances are, she never would have come back to the station if he hadn't been there. She was a doormat throughout the whole show until Byron gave her a mission and helped give her some self-esteem and a backbone.

Drop 2? Demote 2? Not following you there.

Jan

 

[Republibot 3.0]

No combat taken. Sheridan simply went from loyal Earthforce officer to Grand Rebel Leader.

Over a span of 2.5 years.

Actually, more like a year and a half. From January 8, 2259, and secceding around June of 2260. (I can't remember the exact date)

DeLenn went from genocidal rage-monkey to the bridge between worlds.

During the course of a 3-year war.

Or five year, or however long it was. We get conflicting info. In any event, Delenn's shift is more a case of "I've made a horrible, horrible mistake,and must spend the rest of my life fixing it." Sheridan was more an, "It's gotta' stop!" kind of thing.

But your point is made.

Gotta disagree there. Logically, Sheridan should have laughed at her and said 'Yeah, sure. Where did you get the impression I have access to habitable planets to just give away?' Sheridan headed up an alliance, he didn't take over any of the sovereign governments.

Habitable planets aren't particularly uncommon in the Fiveiverse. We saw several abandoned ones in Crusade, the Markab homeworld is empty, there are doubtless others. Given Sheridan's resources - and remember, the ISA worlds owe him BIGTIME - I'm sure someone could find a world for them. He'd have to ask real nice, perhaps get a few polite 'no's, but eventually somethign would turn up. Politically, the situation isn't unlike the creation of the modern State of Israel.

Drop 2? Demote 2? Not following you there.

Jan

Oh. Ok, we lost Marcus and Ivonova from the cast. That's two dropped. Vir and Lannier were demoted from principle cast to recurring. This isn't reflected in the opening titles, but in terms of useage, they're getting far less screen time. I think Byron gets more screen time than either of them, honestly.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Sheridan, Delenn and G'Kar were already in positions of leadership before they came to B5. Sheridan was a war hero and starship captain; Delenn was part of the Grey Council, G'Kar was a resistance fighter on Narn.

True. Good point.

Even Londo led military campaigns if you believe his bragging in Voice in the Wilderness.

I don't buy his bragging. It's never entirely clear what he's talking about. Could be something from his youth, could be a big deal from a hundred years ago that he just thinks is cool, and always aspired to something similar. If he had any military history - unlikely, given he's a mid-ranking noble of no great account - then he would have been a comissioned paper-pusher. Which is kind of what he was sent to earth to do.

They also all had their mentors: Sheridan had his father, his academy teachers and Kosh; Delenn had Dukhat; G'Kar had his father.

That's a very good point. Personally, I always saw Kosh as her mentor.

 

[Springer]

I don't buy his bragging. It's never entirely clear what he's talking about. Could be something from his youth, could be a big deal from a hundred years ago that he just thinks is cool, and always aspired to something similar. If he had any military history - unlikely, given he's a mid-ranking noble of no great account - then he would have been a comissioned paper-pusher. Which is kind of what he was sent to earth to do.

Yeah, although I think Londo is meant to be a little older than the others – I think they de-aged him after the pilot to make him more of a match for G'Kar – so it is possible that he had a more swashbuckling youth and has since just got old and decadent. He clearly comes from an important House on Centauri Prime, but was maybe considered the black sheep of the family. He also obviously had some skill – not anyone could have flown that shuttle through the space battle and then down the crevasse into Epsilon 3, though whether he actually led the raid on Frallis 12 in his youth or whether he was just a part of it and exaggerating his position, is open to debate!

"Landing thrusters... landing thrusters... hmm, now if I were a landing thruster, which one of these would I be?"

 

[Republibot 3.0]

, though whether he actually led the raid on Frallis 12 in his youth or whether he was just a part of it and exaggerating his position, is open to debate!

"Landing thrusters... landing thrusters... hmm, now if I were a landing thruster, which one of these would I be?"

Of those two options, "Just been a part of it" is more likely. Londo's military service is never mentioned, nor alluded to again insofar as I can recall. So if it existed at all, it probably wasn't extensive. Also, young men are generally not in charge of battles. Old men who survived batltes as young men are. So he definitely wouldn't have been in charge.

 

[Ragzus]

, though whether he actually led the raid on Frallis 12 in his youth or whether he was just a part of it and exaggerating his position, is open to debate!

"Landing thrusters... landing thrusters... hmm, now if I were a landing thruster, which one of these would I be?"

Of those two options, "Just been a part of it" is more likely. Londo's military service is never mentioned, nor alluded to again insofar as I can recall. So if it existed at all, it probably wasn't extensive. Also, young men are generally not in charge of battles. Old men who survived batltes as young men are. So he definitely wouldn't have been in charge.

Ah but you forget that you are thinking about current military practices, the Centari are somewhat based on the English from the periods before WW1 and the start of WW1 in terms of.
Nobles = Generals - if they can lead themselves to water or not.
Land owners = Nobles.

So its possible the centari gave command to younger nobles who wanted glory and to take part in wars, since it wasn't conscripted everyone *must* fight like world war one when the english learnt that having noble men lead men into a war they know nothing about is only a great way to make a bunch of jam.


Anyway i don't like the 5th season very much but i stick with it most times, i agree the telepath arc was poorly handled and very slow and boring, i felt like it needed to be a longer sub story before anything happened, it had too much focus on a subplot.

Marcus/Susan gone was just UGH! They should've at least attempted to try to fill marcus's shoes Lennier(sp) *said* that is what he was going to do by joining the rangers but really only leaves another hole in the cast.

I also felt like the good guys took/take far too long to click onto the "omg the bad guys, they're bad!" i mean john has seen the future its all glazed over.

I liked the micheal taking back his life arc very much it felt so right after what happened in season four, I'm not sure about the love interest though i felt like he had more of a connection with captain replacement than with his current sugar momma(sp? lol)

Byron was a verrrrrrry bland character, the reason they went under was a really BLAND and stupid reason, They could've given the telepaths a homeworld a colony it wouldn't have been that hard, Though they didn't give them much chance to consider the option before the black mailing.
I think the series as a whole made enough hints and leading into a telepath war before this entire arc happened as i said, i feel it should've been longer more of a sub plot with less focus and had ended with the telepath war result, otherwise your planting tomato's in land your going to concrete over.

I think a view from the gallery was my favorite episode of that season with the second being the last sleeping in the light(?) because while sad it was a good close to the series and cast.

I guess Claudia didn't want to but she could've done a miniseries/season on her shake down about the new warlock destroyer which isn't that kind of weird?

They got the gravity tech from the IA in 4x21 if they got it right away, so they then built a hull and lets say for the fast way took a pre-made minbari gravity system and she took that ship during season 5?
Or did she wait while they developed the hull of a ship that didn't need to rotate?
I guess they could've been producing a ship with some shadow tech that wasn't going to have gravity and just retrofit the system in which might then only take months for the prototype to be ready for launch.

But then if they had shadow tech didn't they have gravity? on their smaller cargo ship in 3x14 they would've had a harder time transporting goods if they didn't have gravity to keep those telepaths from bouncing around.
But i could see shadow vessels and the fighters not having gravity or even oxygen in large supply as if you watch their very not boom explosions.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Ah but you forget that you are thinking about current military practices, the Centari are somewhat based on the English from the periods before WW1 and the start of WW1 in terms of.
Nobles = Generals - if they can lead themselves to water or not.
Land owners = Nobles.

So its possible the centari gave command to younger nobles who wanted glory and to take part in wars, since it wasn't conscripted everyone *must* fight like world war one when the english learnt that having noble men lead men into a war they know nothing about is only a great way to make a bunch of jam.

Well, being a noble meant you were an officer. Becoming more than that was a matter of merit, generally. No pun intended. But, yeah, could be. Certainly they lost their empire in like a century, so clearly bad leadership and an inability to change were part of that. :guffaw:

Anyway i don't like the 5th season very much but i stick with it most times, i agree the telepath arc was poorly handled and very slow and boring, i felt like it needed to be a longer sub story before anything happened, it had too much focus on a subplot.

They could have shown the entire telepath war in the season if they wanted to, but JMS had other plans. Which will never be realized.

Marcus/Susan gone was just UGH! They should've at least attempted to try to fill marcus's shoes Lennier(sp) *said* that is what he was going to do by joining the rangers but really only leaves another hole in the cast.

Agreed. JMS also said there'd be a lot of consequences to Marcus' death, but they never even mentioned it until Sleeping in Light.

Byron was a verrrrrrry bland character, the reason they went under was a really BLAND and stupid reason, They could've given the telepaths a homeworld a colony it wouldn't have been that hard, Though they didn't give them much chance to consider the option before the black mailing.

Yeah, it's just bad writing all 'round.

I think a view from the gallery was my favorite episode of that season

Ugh. No offence, but I hate that one. That one and "Day of the Dead" are the lowest ebbs of the season, I think.

I guess Claudia didn't want to but she could've done a miniseries/season on her shake down about the new warlock destroyer which isn't that kind of weird?

I don't think the option of doing such a thing ever came up.

They got the gravity tech from the IA in 4x21 if they got it right away, so they then built a hull and lets say for the fast way t[...]ls and the fighters not having gravity or even oxygen in large supply as if you watch their very not boom explosions.

Some of this would have been touched on in Crusade, such as the "Shadow Omegas."

Fannon on the Warlocks is that they were intended to be a cheaper, faster, more efficient replacement for the Omegas, and that they were simply going to do without gravity entirely (As the Hyperions and Drednauts had done). When the IA gave them artificial gravity, it was quickly retrofitted into the Warlocks.

Although honestly, we have no indication in the show that the Warlocks have gravity. Yes, JMS mentions it in one of his stories, and I know his stories are canon, but I don't place a lot of stock in them.

 

[Ragzus]

I think i liked view mostly because it was a bit of a change up from the rest of the bleh being the only episode where byron portrayed a human being (imo at least)

That's true about warlocks i didn't really have any info to know they have gravity it just seemed like that would considering they are the choice of cruiser verses the centari in the extra episodes could mean they were more high tech but that is as likely as any other guess.
Could've been easier to get those cgi models, could've wanted a weaker ship for the centari to step over, i could go on with theories.

Yeah from my understanding which i don't know if its true of not Claudia left and didn't want to come back, i don't know any back story.


The consequences to Marcus' death in my opinion *is* the fifth season. lol

 

[Republibot 3.0]

I think i liked view mostly because it was a bit of a change up from the rest of the bleh being the only episode where byron portrayed a human being (imo at least)

Yeah, a lot of people like it. I just find the acting so bad, and the dialog so stilted. It doesn't do much for me.

That's true about warlocks i didn't really have any info to know they have gravity it just seemed like that would considering they are the choice of cruiser verses the centari in the extra episodes could mean they were more high tech but that is as likely as any other guess.
Could've been easier to get those cgi models, could've wanted a weaker ship for the centari to step over, i could go on with theories.

Well, they seem to be holding their own against the Centauri in "Lost Tales." And Gideon is impressed by them in Crusade.

Yeah from my understanding which i don't know if its true of not Claudia left and didn't want to come back, i don't know any back story.

Now that I think on it, he probably didn't kill her off offscreen as she was in "Sleeping in Light," which was already in the can. If not for that, someone would have mentioned that she died of runaway impeteigo in between seasons.

The consequences to Marcus' death in my opinion *is* the fifth season. lol

I'd buy that more if they ever even mentioned his name.

 

[Ragzus]

I know not techincally season 5 but the final episode where they blew up babylon 5.
UGH!
I know it was symbolism john is gone the ISA is active but the story for the most part is done, but i felt it was too final.

I mean why wouldn't the ISA buy b5? and just leave it operational with a couple of sentimental rangers on-board?
It seemed a huge waste, and "a trouble for navigation" WHAT? how? they'd have to jump into the system first before it became a problem and the great machine below can keep an eye on it, or you could keep a probe in system to alert people to where it currently is!

I'm not sure if you could but i imagine it is possible to attach thrusters or tow ships to it, and move the space station from the area of space, Could've even put it into hyperspace to float into the unknown still having a chance to be found later.

It just urks me lol

The lack of new *real* characters added to the cast also helped finish the series Byron was new but his story started and ended in the season the *new* captain was only a replacement for susan and the new narn guy was a tiny side story and already a character before it started minor as he was, he should've had more of a part imo. (in s5)
and "Number 1(is that right? lol)" just comes in to finish up a story line very cheap and nasty way to let Micheal go.

Lyta also went crazy too quickly imo, I get major events change people but she went from one extreme to another, in season 3-4 she was almost like a dog; "come here do this, now this" and got walked all over without much objection they attempted to cover this in s5 but her personality just went wooooosh.
I would've rather seen her go to that side more slowly and if the telepath plot was more subplot it would've been smoother.


I think for me the real main problem was the lack of a single story to drive the season, too many sub plots if they would've picked one and ran with it for more focus.
Character problems when you have a decent cast would've been less of a focus if the story is driving you fast pace.
Last seasons of DS9 were good because of that story was dragging you around by the nose for the most part with characters your familiar with who might not be *great* characters but you don't notice everything that is going on if the story is paced enough.

I think that is what movies are trying to do these days, pacing movies fast but they miss the point that the story must be engaging enough to be dragging you along by the nose at that speed, or its just a blurr of explosions.

And S5 was the last the end of it and the story had given up it just wanted to close a couple of doors on its way out.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

, though whether he actually led the raid on Frallis 12 in his youth or whether he was just a part of it and exaggerating his position, is open to debate!

"Landing thrusters... landing thrusters... hmm, now if I were a landing thruster, which one of these would I be?"

Of those two options, "Just been a part of it" is more likely. Londo's military service is never mentioned, nor alluded to again insofar as I can recall. So if it existed at all, it probably wasn't extensive. Also, young men are generally not in charge of battles. Old men who survived batltes as young men are. So he definitely wouldn't have been in charge.

It is quite normal for aristocrats to take a short commission in the military after leaving university. Then they either go home to run the family estate or take a job as a diplomat. (See Britain's Royal Princes.) That career path fits Londo.

If Londo reached the rank equivalent to full lieutenant he may have had a platoon of ~30 men under his command.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

No combat taken. Sheridan simply went from loyal Earthforce officer to Grand Rebel Leader. DeLenn went from genocidal rage-monkey to the bridge between worlds. G'Kar and Londo had more gradual transitions, however. There were a number of points that changed them. Arguably Lyta had a number of those points herself, where she was treated like crap, used, abused, thrown away. Basically, if she'd walked in at the start of Season 5 and said to Sheridan, "Mr. President, I want a homeworld for Telepaths. Consider it payment for services rendered. You owe me." Sheridan logically should have said "Yes." Her behavior woudln't have seemed out of character, as we repeatedly saw she resented her treatment.

"Sure thing, Lyta, but it'll take me a while to find a suitable world. I'll give you temporary facilities, and you can bring in as many rogue telepaths as you want. I don't know how long the process of buying a world from the member nations will take, but as soon as it's done, the ISA will start moving you there."

That's an acceptable deal, and reasonable for both sides. And you can keep her on the station and still do a lot of the stuff that needed to be done that season for her arc. She could make some mistakes, she could make some victories, alienate Sheridan in the process, and it ends with her (Possibly with G'kar) heading off to "Psiworld," which we take as a victory, but she's already let out that a war is coming in two years.
{snip}

Yes, the problem there was speed. Byron entered the meeting under false pretenses and started blackmailing the aliens. So a search that would probably take several years had to be done in 30 seconds. The answer can back, No.

Governments claim not to give in to blackmail. This is untrue but they do not like losing face by giving in publicly.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

I know not techincally season 5 but the final episode where they blew up babylon 5.
UGH!
I know it was symbolism john is gone the ISA is active but the story for the most part is done, but i felt it was too final.

There is no logical, rational reason for the destruction of the Babylon 5 station. I mean, we're still flying 50-year-old B52 bombers, and we have no plans to replace them within the next generation. Aircraft Carriers have a life expectency of about 50 years. You're going to tell me that a five-mile-long station has a life expenctency of only a quarter-century?

Nonsense!

And the idea that it became a navigational hazard? Again: nonsense. Space is really, really big. It wouldn't be a hazard for anyone unless they were possibly in orbit around Epsilon Eridani III. Which, I might add, it appeared nobody was. For a centrally-located nexus of trade kinda' solar system, it appeared abandoned.

And how is BLOWING SOMETHING UP supposed to make it LESS of a navigational hazard? You've traded one big hunk of easily-avoidable metal in for a hundred trillion bits of shrapnel.

The REAL reason B5 got blowed up is because JMS included all those scenes of B5 exploding in the early episodes of B5, then changed his mind as to where the story was going. But he'd had so many precognitions about it that he couldn't just handwave it away. So instead he came up with a cockamamie explanation and used it as the final scene in the series.

(The original concept was that there would be TWO TV series. Babylon 5 and Bablyon Prime. The space station would be blown up at the end of the B5 series, with all the surviving principle characters running for their lives. The end, thanks for watching. Have a nice life. Assuming that downer of an ending didn't drive away audiences "I watched this for five years....AND THEY LOSE?" then the "Babylon Prime" spinoff would have involved the surviving characters traveling back in time to steal Babylon 4, which they'd bring to the present to use as their base. It would be renamed "Babylon Prime.")