Shadows, Vorlons, and... math?

[NorrinRadd]

In "Interludes and Examinations," the two (or so) Shadows that always accompanied Morden were able to assassinate Kosh.

In "Into the Fire," two Centauri guards are able to kill Morden's two Shadow guardians by shooting them with what appeared to be PPG rifles.

In "Falling Toward Apotheosis," a small cadre of B5 security personnel fire PPGs at Ulkesh with no effect at all. Later, a much larger group fire PPG rifles at him, AND he is hit by massive electrical discharges from the station's power grid. This only manages to break his encounter suit's headpiece and piss him off.

So...

2 Shadows > 1 Vorlon

2 PPG rifles > 2 Shadows

1 Vorlon > multiple PPG rifles and more

The math doesn't work out. It's worse than Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock.

 

[Springer]

Presumably the Shadows had knowledge about how to hurt Kosh (we didn't see how the Shadows killed Kosh, but they don't seem to carry guns so they must have some other method). They also managed to damage his suit in Signs and Portents. I also always felt that to some extent Kosh submitted to his execution, because they were the rules that the Vorlons and Shadows agreed to play by.

But the Vorlons certainly seem stronger than the Shadows – at least while they are inside their encounter suits, which may have extra shielding. The Shadows are 'naked' in comparison. Sheridan was able to, if not kill one, hold his own against one of the Shadows with his little PPG on Z'Ha'Dum.

Then again, a little poison almost killed Kosh. I guess they had different strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Looney]

WELCOME NORRINRADD!!!!!

I hate to say this without going back and watching the scene, but I feel like it was more than just Morden's two guards. I'm sure I am wrong, but it seems like I remember a hint that there were more than just the two.

But points to NorrinRadd for giving my brain a workout...

(And can we all agree that the words math, spelling, and science should never be used around me. :wtf:

 

[NorrinRadd]

WELCOME NORRINRADD!!!!!

I hate to say this without going back and watching the scene, but I feel like it was more than just Morden's two guards. I'm sure I am wrong, but it seems like I remember a hint that there were more than just the two.

But points to NorrinRadd for giving my brain a workout...

(And can we all agree that the words math, spelling, and science should never be used around me. :wtf:

I just re-watched the 3-minute clip on YouTube. It's not clear, because of the way the Shadows usually shimmer and cloak themselves. It appears to be 2, maybe 3.

I haven't been able to find a clip of the scene where Ulkesh scans the room where Kosh died. There are scorched images on the wall. It's very brief, so I'm not sure it would be possible to get a good count even if I found the clip.

 

[NorrinRadd]

Presumably the Shadows had knowledge about how to hurt Kosh (we didn't see how the Shadows killed Kosh, but they don't seem to carry guns so they must have some other method).

In "Walkabout," Lyta accidentally makes brief contact with the part of Kosh still living in Sheridan and discovers that the Shadows "tore him apart."

They also managed to damage his suit in Signs and Portents. I also always felt that to some extent Kosh submitted to his execution, because they were the rules that the Vorlons and Shadows agreed to play by.

It's weird. He knew it was coming, which was why he was reluctant to do as Sheridan requested. But there was no reason he could not have safely left the station on his ship and escaped or delayed his fate, unless he figured they would then target Sheridan or something. But I believe I recall JMS long ago saying that he put up a good fight.

But the Vorlons certainly seem stronger than the Shadows – at least while they are inside their encounter suits, which may have extra shielding. The Shadows are 'naked' in comparison. Sheridan was able to, if not kill one, hold his own against one of the Shadows with his little PPG on Z'Ha'Dum.

Even though the Shadows are older, it does seem like the Vorlons have (slightly) better tech. But even without their suits, they seem to be crazy powerful. In Falling Toward Apotheosis, Lorien says, "[SIZE=-1]The Shadows were able to kill Kosh because they are alike. Both First Ones. For you this will be much more difficult. You've never seen a Vorlon enraged. They are more powerful than you can imagine."

But that just makes it more confusing. Like you said, Sheridan's little PPG pistol was at least somewhat effective, and the Centauri PPG rifles were deadly, even though the Shadows were First Ones. Even out of his encounter suit, the PPGs had no effect against Ulkesh.
[/SIZE]

Then again, a little poison almost killed Kosh. I guess they had different strengths and weaknesses.

Yeah. That's a whole other can of spoo. Apparently 1000 years in the past, Valen didn't warn Kosh to not shake "his" had on arrival at B5.

 

[Springer]

I've just re-watched the scene in Interludes... , and we see three Shadows materialise in Kosh's quarters. There are two Shadow images, as well as Morden himself, on the wall in Walkabout. According to JMS on the Lurker's Guide, Kosh didn't take any of the Shadows down with him. JMS also describes their fight as being "on another whole plane", whatever that means, and that Kosh allowed himself to be targeted because if it wasn't going to be him, it would be someone else instead – and Vorlons don't run, according to JMS! He draws a comparison with the thematic narrative in Passing Through Gethsemane – Kosh was going to stay and face what was coming.

And yes, welcome NorrinRadd!

 

[Looney]

Did we lose a conversation? I am getting to old for this. Swear I responded to a conversation yesterday that I don't see today. :wtf: :wtf:

 

[Kraig]

I've just re-watched the scene in Interludes... , and we see three Shadows materialise in Kosh's quarters. There are two Shadow images, as well as Morden himself, on the wall in Walkabout. According to JMS on the Lurker's Guide, Kosh didn't take any of the Shadows down with him. JMS also describes their fight as being "on another whole plane", whatever that means, and that Kosh allowed himself to be targeted because if it wasn't going to be him, it would be someone else instead – and Vorlons don't run, according to JMS! He draws a comparison with the thematic narrative in Passing Through Gethsemane – Kosh was going to stay and face what was coming.

And yes, welcome NorrinRadd!

Kosh had an exit plan, he left his encounter suit so a piece of his mind could go to Sheridan. That way he was able to go to Z'ha'dum with Sheridan. But Kosh being out of his encounter suit left him vunerable to the Shadow attack. I think that was Kosh's strategy, and he was willing to pay the price in order to be with Sheridan at Z'ha'dum.

 

[Looney]

I often think about how things would be different if the show were made today. What are some opinions here ......

Who thinks there would be pressure to show the scene in its entirety?

Who thinks it would just be allowed to play out as it originally did?

I think in this world of CGI there would be a strong push to show the battle. I have no clue where JMS would fall in the debate because I don't know if his decision to not show exactly what happened was based on creative license or budgetary restraint.

 

[Jan]

I often think about how things would be different if the show were made today. What are some opinions here ......

Who thinks there would be pressure to show the scene in its entirety?

Who thinks it would just be allowed to play out as it originally did?

I think in this world of CGI there would be a strong push to show the battle. I have no clue where JMS would fall in the debate because I don't know if his decision to not show exactly what happened was based on creative license or budgetary restraint.

JMS has said in the past that often *not* showing something makes it even more effective since our brains fill in the gaps. I guess the question would be whether it would serve the story in some way to show it? I'm not able to think of much use for showing it.

 

[Looney]

JMS has said in the past that often *not* showing something makes it even more effective since our brains fill in the gaps. I guess the question would be whether it would serve the story in some way to show it? I'm not able to think of much use for showing it.

I agree, BUT I feel people who might be new fans to the show seem to be about defining things, as has been discussed in this thread. I know MANY fans are all about which race could defeat which race and who was stronger. They want to know who might have actually won the war if it played out until a definite victor could be proclaimed. And could humans defeat the Centauri and blah, blah, blah. Point - people would like to be able to define which race, as individuals, was physically superior - Shadows or Vorlons. So showing said scene might have given them some guidance.... and completely taken away all the nuance of what happened. If it had been shown to us then we probably wouldn't still be talking about it today. It wouldn't be one of those great things they did with the narrative; it would just be something that happened. Plus if we saw it and didn't see how Kosh ended up with Sheridan then we would be asking how did that happen and so on.

Okay so after saying all of that about why not showing it was better I think if it were happening today JMS would be getting some pressure to show it from external forces. Someone would say "You have to show what happens because people won't understand. Plus people like fight scenes."

Any other opinions?

In case it hasn't become clear, I am in perfect as it is camp.

 

[Looney]

Hmmmmm.... it was a promising topic, but then everyone's opinions went away.

 

[JohnGaunt3.0]

Interesting math with flawed premises. Why assume Sheridan or the Centauri guards killed any Shadows? In The Long Dark the shadow warrior ate ppg fire from a half dozen weapons and came back for more repeatedly. My assumption is that the Shadows in both incidents responded to the weapons fire like we would to weak pepper spray - back away, blink it off and try again. Sheridan they wanted alive, so he gets kind words from Anna and the veiled threat of her escorts. As for the Morden incident - they had much bigger problems to deal with about one minute after the shooting thanks to Londo and his mushroom clouds.

But that's just my opinion.

 

[Looney]

(HEY SINCLAIR! Someone new from Indiana just showed up. LOL) Bet you are both sorry you don't have the pleasure of living here in Illinois.... :guffaw: :guffaw: :guffaw:

Welcome JohnGaunt3.0 - What have you done with 1.0 and 2.0?!?!?!?!

In The Long Dark the shadow warrior ate ppg fire from a half dozen weapons and came back for more repeatedly. My assumption is that the Shadows in both incidents responded to the weapons fire like we would to weak pepper spray - back away, blink it off and try again.

Interesting. I've always thought of The Shadow ally from THE LONG DARK as something physiologically different from The Shadows themselves, but I guess the visual spectrum aspect likely means they are probably very close in that regard.

 

[Karajorma]

I'd kind of expect for it to be possible that a shadow warrior might be tougher than a shadow though.

 

[JohnGaunt3.0]

Bigger certainly, tougher - maybe, but orders of magnitude tougher - i doubt.

It's not obvious to me that visible is a Shadow's natural state. Maybe they're hiding while escorting Morden, maybe they're only visible when they need you to see them. On the White Star during the final confrontation, the Shadow is visible and the Vorlon is suited - both projections of what they want you to see & hiding their true forms?

Either way, in terms of Vorlons vs Shadows, I don't think either side really KNEW which way things would go in a straight up fight. It's easy to talk bold, but you only put all your chips on the table when you're desperate (or stupid).

 

[Karajorma]

It is also worth remembering that Sheridan had been trained by Kosh in how to fight First Ones. He might not have realized at the time but it's possible that a lot of stuff clicked into place the first time he was confronted with one.



Doesn't explain how Londo was able to do it though.

 

[Moonface]

2 Shadows > 1 Vorlon

2 PPG rifles > 2 Shadows

1 Vorlon > multiple PPG rifles and more

The math doesn't work out. It's worse than Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock.

I know I'm new here and normally I wouldn't come storming in and starting correcting people on the internet, but as a statistician my heart bleeds reading this last line, so I have to say something about it:

Let's consider Rock-Paper-Scissors
Rock beats Scissors
Scissors beat Paper
Paper beats Rock.

now: lets replace Rock with Vorlons, Scissors with PPG technology and Paper with Shadows, then we get:
Vorlons beat PPGs
PPgs beat Shadows
Shadows beat Vorlons

So it's not "worse" than Rock-Paper-Scissors, it's the very definition of it.

One can even define a system where Rock does not win against Scissors all the time, but most of the time (and the same being true for the other combinations)

Let's take 3 dice, each having 6 sides, but no numbers on them.
Paint the first die with the numbers 2, 2, 2, 5, 5, 5
the second one with 1, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4
and the third with 0, 3, 3, 3, 6, 6

that yields the following behavior:
A beats B, but not always, only 58.3% of the time.
the same is true for B vs C, and again für C vs. A

So it is feasible to have a system, where everyone can win against everyone, if they are lucky enough, but "normally" A wins vs B, B wins vs. C and C wins vs. A

P.S.: Please don't take this as a criticism of your interesting analysis of the scenes, I just had a bone to pick with the line "worse than rock-paper-scissors"

 

[Looney]

:wtf::wtf:

Well Moonface you do win a medal for breaking Looney's brain this morning. But as you will learn if you keep posting or keep reading, that isn't exactly the most difficult thing to do. I am a simple man. :angel:

:guffaw:

 

[Moonface]

:wtf::wtf:

Well Moonface you do win a medal for breaking Looney's brain this morning. But as you will learn if you keep posting or keep reading, that isn't exactly the most difficult thing to do. I am a simple man. :angel:

:guffaw:

No worries, I can give you a simplified version:

If you play Rock-Paper-Scissors and you think of Vorlons as Rock. Then PPGs would be scissors and Shadows would be Paper, and everything works out.

(I added the complicated version with the dice for those who wanted to counter with "but PPGs did kill a Vorlon in the end...".)