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Sheridan Question.
- Thread starter kingfish
- Start date
sleepy_shadow
Regular
Since the observable properties of "soul" appear to mainly represent way of thinking, frame of reference, identity, knowledge, direction and goals... I would doubt.
Before everything else... I encounter some difficulty in properly deciding what a Minbari soul should look like. Even after forming a fuzzy outline of properties which might occur among Minbari... I cannot equate. Most properties of Minbari thinking are general properties -- probably common among sentient life.
The only firm difference is background knowledge. Delenn remains Minbari in origin, despite change of genes. She has background knowledge and life experience from Minbar -- highly specific and unlikely to be obtained elsewhere.
But just like she took her experience into a different body... another location may offer experience identical to her homeworld. Also, a different person can learn from Minbar quite different things, and form a quite different personality.
The only relatively firm connection between all Minbari would be genes and background knowledge of their home/history. Delenn's presence and companionship will surely offer Sheridan chances to learn of Minbari ways... but that will occur over time.
Unlike Sinclair, whose ways get incorporated into Minbari ways... Sheridan neither initially shares or recursively creates a significant number of Minbari ways. So I would say no. Sheridan does not have a significantly more Minbari soul than countless more people.
He may gain understanding of Minbari ways... but that is hardly his defining feature.
Before everything else... I encounter some difficulty in properly deciding what a Minbari soul should look like. Even after forming a fuzzy outline of properties which might occur among Minbari... I cannot equate. Most properties of Minbari thinking are general properties -- probably common among sentient life.
The only firm difference is background knowledge. Delenn remains Minbari in origin, despite change of genes. She has background knowledge and life experience from Minbar -- highly specific and unlikely to be obtained elsewhere.
But just like she took her experience into a different body... another location may offer experience identical to her homeworld. Also, a different person can learn from Minbar quite different things, and form a quite different personality.
The only relatively firm connection between all Minbari would be genes and background knowledge of their home/history. Delenn's presence and companionship will surely offer Sheridan chances to learn of Minbari ways... but that will occur over time.
Unlike Sinclair, whose ways get incorporated into Minbari ways... Sheridan neither initially shares or recursively creates a significant number of Minbari ways. So I would say no. Sheridan does not have a significantly more Minbari soul than countless more people.
He may gain understanding of Minbari ways... but that is hardly his defining feature.
I suspect it looks a lot like a human soul...except with ears on its neck and a bone pokin' out of its head!
Since we now understand that Sinclair did not really have a Minbari "soul" but that Valen actually had a human "soul," I think it fair to rationalize that what the Minbari were looking for and what they were detecting with their triluminary were two different things. A soul is essentially intangible and undetectable by mechanical means. To use someone else's analogy...one's soul is like the wind. You can't see the wind, but you can see the effects of the wind - moving clouds, debris, and sailing ships from place to place. In the same way, I can't see the soul of a person, but I can see what kind of soul that person has through his words, actions, and personality.
The triluminary glowed because it detected something human in those Earthforce pilots that were scanned with it and because it detected something human in Delenn (later revealed to be a child of Valen). I don't think it detected her soul, but I do think it detected the truth...a part of who Delenn really was...a part she didn't know about.
The Soul Hunter who captured Delenn was trying to steal intangible things and encapsulate them. Her thoughts, ideas, emotions, personality...everything that makes Delenn distinct from all other Minbari. He wasn't taking biological material like DNA (from what I understand about his process), but that which is intangible and is based on energy instead of matter.
So, does Sheridan have a Minbari soul? No. Sheridan has Sheridan's soul, Delenn has Delenn's soul, and Sinclair has his own soul (whichever name you apply to it). My soul is me. No matter what kind of outward physical appearance I may take on, what is on the inside remains.
Sheridan definitely has a human soul. And in regards to the story, perhaps the quintessential one. In SiL, he lives on Minbar, but still does not stray from his human sensibilities - case in point, the flat bed. And at the end of the story, his soul transcends death with the aid of Lorien. This leads me to believe that even though Minbari and many humans believe in reincarnation, Sheridan has a unique soul that was born with him. That's part of the reason the Vorlons, and the Shadows, were so intent on keeping an eye on him.
Jade Jaguar
Regular
I think that we don't have the information to answer this question, on anything other than an emotional level. We know Minbari souls are being born in humans. Never in the series is Sheridan tested to see if he has a Minbari soul, but it is possible one was reborn in him. I am of the opinion that it is the fact that Sinclair was transformed into Valen, a Minbari, that started, or opened the door if you will, to Minbari souls being born into humans. But even with him, we don't know for sure. The tri-luminary identified him as a "descendent" of Valen, but of course, he WAS Valen, or at least would become Valen, so that doesn't positively identify the source of his soul. My opinion: Sinclair had a human soul, but when he became Valen, it became a Minbari soul, and since he went back 1,000 years, it opened the gate for humans to recieve Minbari souls from then on, by linking the two races. I should think that human souls would be reborn in Minbaris from that date onward as well. But about Sheridan, we can't know.
Jade Jaguar
Regular
True, the Minbari couldn't have used a triluminary to identify a Minbari soul in a human, nor did I say they would/could. But, since they are certain that Minbari souls are born into humans, they must have some other way of telling. Or, they don't know what the're talking about. I am assuming they do know.
Not necessarily. It just means that they're using the wrong test to try to prove it. Just because they can't detect it with a triluminary (even though they think they can) doesn't mean it's not happening. I don't really believe that "soul migration" is what's happening, but the one does not necessarily negate the other.
The Minbari belief in soul migration is just that...a belief. It falls into the category of other religious beliefs. It may be provable by scientific means or historical evidence, or it may not be. I don't think that the soul migration aspect is a literal phenomenon in the B5 story. We hear about the religious beliefs of some of the non-aligned races and we don't take all of them as cold, hard fact. Why do we do that with Minbari religion? Like the other races, the Minbari are still trying to learn all the mysteries of the universe. I think the soul migration theory was just the best thing their religious scholars could come up with to explain why there were fewer Minbari born in each generation AND why their triluminary detected a Minbari "soul" in a human being.
Bester
Regular
In order to conduct a test you must be doing it for a reason. Therefore, this would imply that the Minbari had already suspected that their souls were migrating to another race. This isn't the case. Don't forget that they inadvertantly made this discovery when interogating Sinclair. Their intention was interogation, not testing. If the Triluminary had not glowed during the interogation of Sinclair the Minbari would not have believed that Minbari souls were migrating to another race.
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
You also need to consider the reverse. The triluminary doesn't glow for the vast majority of Minbari, either. Only descendants of Valen set it off. With that said, it's a pretty piss-poor Minbari soul detector, so it's not really a good proof for soul migration. When coupled with other aspects of their society and belief system, however...Valen's Prophecies, the declining birth rate, the seeming malaise of the current generation, heightened tension between the castes, belief in reincarnation, etc...so-called 'soul migration' makes a good scapegoat for explaining why the Minbari of the B5 era don't consider themselves as great as their predecessors. It's far easier to say 'our greatest souls have left us' to justify the decline than it is to admit that their civilization has already culminated for purely societal reasons.
V/R
John
V/R
John
sleepy_shadow
Regular
I personally like to think the triluminary glowing... is a simple confirmation given by a computer, which presumably directs the transformation.
"Integrity check complete. I am functional.
Genome scan complete. You are suitable."
Pieces of soul certainly migrate... how could I deny this, when I am picking up an discarding such pieces on every moment? They migrate fastest... when people interact.
By this logic, I should say that when Sinclair became a Minbari... it was his Human properties which started appearing among the Minbari -- not Minbari properties among Humans. That became easier only a thousands years later.
From that perspective, the Minbari have it backwards. In relation to Humans, they have been on the receiving side -- without taking anything away from the Humans.
"Integrity check complete. I am functional.
Genome scan complete. You are suitable."
Pieces of soul certainly migrate... how could I deny this, when I am picking up an discarding such pieces on every moment? They migrate fastest... when people interact.
By this logic, I should say that when Sinclair became a Minbari... it was his Human properties which started appearing among the Minbari -- not Minbari properties among Humans. That became easier only a thousands years later.
From that perspective, the Minbari have it backwards. In relation to Humans, they have been on the receiving side -- without taking anything away from the Humans.
KoshFan
Regular
As I recall, "other tests" were performed. Now, this could mean other Humans were tested, or it could mean that the Minbari have more than one way of recognizing souls.
But even if they didn't, and therefore had no evidence for the soul migration whatsoever, it still doesn't mean that they were wrong.
But even if they didn't, and therefore had no evidence for the soul migration whatsoever, it still doesn't mean that they were wrong.
RedHariedChick
New member
You are right on the money, Bester. Delenn even states in one episode (insufficient circulating levels of caffine to pull the name out right now) that the Triluminary responds to Human DNA and that the Minbari, unfamiliar with humans as a species, mistook this response as an indication of the presence of a Minbari soul.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
The only reason that the Minbari ever believed that their souls were being reborn in Humans was that the Triluminary reacted to Jeffery Sinclair and other Humans. No other method is ever posited as their reason for believing this, and Lennier explicitly says that they confirmed their theory by testing it with other captives and that this was the sole reason for the Minbari surrender.
Delenn tells us that they were wrong, that the Triluminary was reacting to Sinclair's Human DNA (99.999% of which he would share with every other Human being.) It also reacts to Valen's descendents for the same reason. But that doesn't mean that the Triluminaries were "bad soul detectors" per se because according to Minbari belief the souls of previous generations are reborn "in whole or in part" into each new generation. A "child of Valen" could thus be understood to be one who has inherited part of his soul rather than his DNA. And it may be that according to Minbari belief you primarily inherit your soul from your own biological ancestors, in which case the two would go together anyway. (Given their clan structure and the importance of family in Minbari culture I suspect that this is the case.)
The show doesn't tell us enough to be sure how the Minbari view these issues but there is certainly nothing that contradicts the idea, and a fair amount of indirect evidence to support it.
So I'd say the whole "did Sheridan have a Minbari soul" issue is moot, since there was never any transmigration of souls to begin with.
On the question of how much of a Minbari Sheridan became - that's more complicated than everyone seems willing to allow. The bed business is a red herring. Even on B5 Sheridan and Delenn alternated between an angled Minbari bed and a flat human one. Perhaps they did the same on Minbar. The only time we ever see Sheridan on Minbar is when he is preparing for his last party, and his last visit with his non-Minbari friends. So he's "acting" Human, but it is hard to say if he's reverting to this behavior at the end or if this is how he's been living for the past 18 years. We don't know.
What we do know is that he's chosen to live on Minbar for the past 18 years, accepted Minbari culture been accepted by the Minbari. For the past couple of years he's been Entil'Zha. He's worn the robes, conducted the rituals, learned the language and the history. Probably a more interesting question is how much more like Humans Sheridan and the non-Minbari Rangers have made Minbari society as a whole. I suspect that they have to a fairly great degree, starting with the hints we saw in the Rangers movie a mere three years after the formation of the Interstellar Alliance, and that this transformation would have been a major theme of a Rangers series had that happened.
Regards,
Joe
Delenn tells us that they were wrong, that the Triluminary was reacting to Sinclair's Human DNA (99.999% of which he would share with every other Human being.) It also reacts to Valen's descendents for the same reason. But that doesn't mean that the Triluminaries were "bad soul detectors" per se because according to Minbari belief the souls of previous generations are reborn "in whole or in part" into each new generation. A "child of Valen" could thus be understood to be one who has inherited part of his soul rather than his DNA. And it may be that according to Minbari belief you primarily inherit your soul from your own biological ancestors, in which case the two would go together anyway. (Given their clan structure and the importance of family in Minbari culture I suspect that this is the case.)
The show doesn't tell us enough to be sure how the Minbari view these issues but there is certainly nothing that contradicts the idea, and a fair amount of indirect evidence to support it.
So I'd say the whole "did Sheridan have a Minbari soul" issue is moot, since there was never any transmigration of souls to begin with.
On the question of how much of a Minbari Sheridan became - that's more complicated than everyone seems willing to allow. The bed business is a red herring. Even on B5 Sheridan and Delenn alternated between an angled Minbari bed and a flat human one. Perhaps they did the same on Minbar. The only time we ever see Sheridan on Minbar is when he is preparing for his last party, and his last visit with his non-Minbari friends. So he's "acting" Human, but it is hard to say if he's reverting to this behavior at the end or if this is how he's been living for the past 18 years. We don't know.
What we do know is that he's chosen to live on Minbar for the past 18 years, accepted Minbari culture been accepted by the Minbari. For the past couple of years he's been Entil'Zha. He's worn the robes, conducted the rituals, learned the language and the history. Probably a more interesting question is how much more like Humans Sheridan and the non-Minbari Rangers have made Minbari society as a whole. I suspect that they have to a fairly great degree, starting with the hints we saw in the Rangers movie a mere three years after the formation of the Interstellar Alliance, and that this transformation would have been a major theme of a Rangers series had that happened.
Regards,
Joe
Bester
Regular
No such thing as \"Soul Migration\"
Personally, I believe that when a person dies in the B5 universe their soul travels beyond the rim of the galaxy (whilst retaining its individuality). The space they occupy beyond the rim can be considered as "heaven" or "the place where no shadows fall". A number of these souls return temporarily during the Brakiri Day of the Dead to visit the living. Sheridan was the first of the younger races to move physically beyond the rim, and as such was unable to return.
Personally, I believe that when a person dies in the B5 universe their soul travels beyond the rim of the galaxy (whilst retaining its individuality). The space they occupy beyond the rim can be considered as "heaven" or "the place where no shadows fall". A number of these souls return temporarily during the Brakiri Day of the Dead to visit the living. Sheridan was the first of the younger races to move physically beyond the rim, and as such was unable to return.
sleepy_shadow
Regular
Re: No such thing as \"Soul Migration\"
Technically more advanced civilisations must often pursue business beyond the Rim. They would sure notice stumbling into a "metaphysical galactic bit bucket". That would attract too much attention -- and generally be too unbelievable.
If anyone discovered either the means of storage... or actual storage of that much information... they might develop overwhelming urge to exploit it for their own purposes.
Discarding requirements for an explainable means of transmission and storage... maintaining such an amount of infomation against entropy... would probably consume more energy than the whole Universe readily contains.
Provided one somehow miraculously... spent all energy in the Universe to sustain lost information from one galaxy (even if one defined strict criteria for "soul" and threw away all information below a certain level of organisation)... what could reasonably exclude the zillion other galaxies?
So much information is constantly lost... that to summarize the total amount as anything but grossly vast... is beyond my ability. Thus I personally consider... the idea of such a vast accumulation of info (countless minds times billions of years)... too unbelievable.
In my opinion... not a good story idea. "Beyond the Rim" is more like ordinary space -- even if stars grow few and far between, while other galaxies still remain distant.
Technically more advanced civilisations must often pursue business beyond the Rim. They would sure notice stumbling into a "metaphysical galactic bit bucket". That would attract too much attention -- and generally be too unbelievable.
If anyone discovered either the means of storage... or actual storage of that much information... they might develop overwhelming urge to exploit it for their own purposes.
Discarding requirements for an explainable means of transmission and storage... maintaining such an amount of infomation against entropy... would probably consume more energy than the whole Universe readily contains.
Provided one somehow miraculously... spent all energy in the Universe to sustain lost information from one galaxy (even if one defined strict criteria for "soul" and threw away all information below a certain level of organisation)... what could reasonably exclude the zillion other galaxies?
So much information is constantly lost... that to summarize the total amount as anything but grossly vast... is beyond my ability. Thus I personally consider... the idea of such a vast accumulation of info (countless minds times billions of years)... too unbelievable.
In my opinion... not a good story idea. "Beyond the Rim" is more like ordinary space -- even if stars grow few and far between, while other galaxies still remain distant.
