Sleeping in Light question (SPOILER)

[RW7427]

Valen's fate is unknown, as his body was never recovered. Hence, many Minbari think he will come back. When Sheridan's body disappeared, they began to say the same thing about him.

Delenn's fate, as far as I know, is completely unknown.

Someone above raised the point that Sheridan alone of the One did not change. I think he did, but in a very different way. Sinclair/Valen and Delenn changed back and forth between Human and Minbari, but Sheridan was the first Human to reach the level of the First Ones. (You could argue that Jason Ironheart beat him to it, but I bet Sheridan's a step above Ironheart in insight, if not in raw power.)

As evidence for this, I offer three examples of Sheridan being more than Human:
-- One, simply vanishing beyond the Rim. Not many get personally ushered into the afterlife by the Eldest.
-- Two, Sheridan is the only one Lyta can't control. Sheridan says it's because he's been touched by the Vorlons, but that may not be the whole story; he's been touched by other beings, too.
-- Three and most significantly, Londo's dream. As they walk along the corridor, Sheridan changes repeatedly, and lastly he turns into a glowing ball of energy EXACTLY like the one in Deconstruction of Falling Stars.

Good points!

 

[Fas]

I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that Valen's body was never found (could have been one of the novels, or the "In Valen's Name" comic series).

mmm, i think i read that too in To Dream In The City of Sorrows.

As for Delenn, i think she probably died just like any other Minbari, Ivanova was there when she died, hence the "and every night for as long as she lived, Delenn woke up before dawn, to watch the sun come up". No mention of anything not natural.

To tell the truth i think Delenn would prefer living and dying rather than having her spirit "inmortalized" by Lorien, assuming thats what he did with Sheridan. She wanted to be reborn into the next generation of Minbari, being of the religious caste.

 

[Maagic]

I seriously doubt that Ivanova outlived Delenn... Her voiceover was more of a historical point of view, rather than a personal one.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Ivanova could have outlived Delenn. Although the Minbari have longer lifespans than Humans, Delenn was also considerably older than most of the other ambassadors. In purely biological terms it would not have been terribly surprising if Delenn died within a few years of most her B5 contemporaries because she had a "headstart".

However, I wouldn't rule out something mysterious about Delenn's end, either.

Here's an exchange between a fan and JMS on usenet from October 1999, about how much of the future was mapped out in advance. The question is in italics, JMS's reply in boldface.

Q: By the way, I note that SiL clearly does refer to 'events that had not yet happened when SiL was filmed '. For example, there's Lennier's death. (Remember that Lennier is toasted as one of the 'absent friends, in memory still bright'.) Franklin being the head of Xenobiology back on earth. Garibaldi being head of Edgar's Industries (although this is implicit in 'Rising Stars').

A: Exactly so. Franklin's situation even predates any thought at all about Crusade as a series.

Garibaldi's death (a much quieter passing than he would have imagined waiting for him), Franklin's final fate on a distant, unexplored planet, Delenn's final journey (a quest involving Valen, though no one else around her believes it), Lennier's sacrifice... it's all mapped out, on the theory that whether or not it ever gets used, I had to know it. - JMS

A buck says the Minbari never find Delenn's body, either, thus completing the Trifecta.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Wolfrat]

I doubt that Susan would have outlived Delenn. Susan was in her late 20's -early 30's on babylon 5 based on her age indicated (in the beginning and when she was talking to Sheridan). Delenn appeared a 100 years later in deconstruction of falling stars and it was indicated she was 140 years old. That would have made Susan around 130 at that time. Remember Delenn's statement after Sheridan returned from Za"Ha"Dum when Lorien indicated Sheridan had 20 years - She said that humans often lived to be a 100. There is quite a difference between 100 and 130.
Furthermore, Susan would not have been likely to know what Delenn was doing at this time since it was also stated she had been living in seclusion for quite awhile.
Possible but not likely.

 

[RW7427]

I agree. I don't think Susan could have outlived Delenn. She'd have to be as old as a dinosaur.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

That would have made Susan around 130 at that time. Remember Delenn's statement after Sheridan returned from Za"Ha"Dum when Lorien indicated Sheridan had 20 years - She said that humans often lived to be a 100. There is quite a difference between 100 and 130.

There is also quite a difference between 2262 and 2362 - as there is between 1903 and 2003. Why does everyone assume that medical science won't advance at all between 2262 and 2362, whereas it advanced by leaps and bounds between 1903 and 2003? At least in the advanced industrialized countries it is no longer at all remarkable for someone to live to be 100. (To cite a trivial example, Today show weatherman Willard Scott only wishes an on-air "Happy Birthday" to people 102 and over these days. He used to do it for anyone 100 or more, but there were so many of them for every broadcast day that the segment started to run overtime and he'd have to drop people from the list.) I have a great aunt who may get a greeting from Willard next she. She turned 101 this past April and is still going strong.

Sheridan cites 100 as a "typical" Human lifespan, as does Franklin in another episode. ("Around 100 years" is what he says.) In the middle of the 19th century the "typical" Human could expect to live to about age 50, although even then there were exceptions. By end of the 20th century that figure was a lot closer to 80 - an increase of nearly 30 years or roughly 62% in a century and a half. And many people live until well past the average, in all times of course. The longest documented Human life ended not too long ago after 122 years. That is little short of the 130 that some of you think will be impossible 360-some years from now.

BTW, am I the only one who found JMS's reference to Delenn's "final journey" more interesting than the relatively trivial question of who outlived whom?

Extract from an article published in SCIENCE (296(2002) 1029-1031), by J. Oeppen and J.W. Vaupel, two statisticians:
.
The idea that our lifespans, say, cannot exceed an average of 80 years, runs into a severe problem. So far, no less than 18 attempts to predict human maximum average lifespans have turned out false, usually after only 8 years. The earliest such attempt known to Oeppen and Vaupel happened in 1928, when Louis Dublin claimed that humans could not live on average longer than 64.75 years. He turned out to be already wrong on his prediction, for the average lifespan of non-Maori New Zealand females at that time reached 65.93 years. US average then came to 57 years. Not deterred by Dublin's failure, no less than 18 experts have made their own predictions, only to see increased human lifespans in the best country soon exceeding them.

Excerpt from an article by Bruce J. Klein of something called "The Longevity Institute". The paranthetical numbers refer to footnotes indicating sources:
.
"Over half the baby boomers here in America are going to see their hundredth birthday and beyond in excellent health," says Dr. Ronald Klatz, founder and President of the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine. "We're looking at life spans for the baby boomers and the generation after the baby boomers of 120 to 150 years of age." (4)
.
According to a longevity study conducted by John Wilmoth (5), a UC Berkeley associate, the "oldest age at death for humans has been rising for more than a century and shows no signs of leveling off." Wilmoth and fellow colleges from the United States and Sweden researched the national death records in Sweden and found an increase in the average maximum lifespan each year since 1861. This finding calls into question the 120 lifespan limit.
.
"We have shown that the maximum life span is changing. It is not a biological constant. Whether or not this can go on indefinitely is difficult to say. There is no hint yet that the upward trend is slowing down," writes Wilmoth.
.
Wilmoth's statements about maximum lifespan run counter to a commonly held belief that there is a natural limit. "Those numbers are out of thin air," said Wilmoth. "There is no scientific basis on which to estimate a fixed upper limit. Whether 115 or 120 years, it is a legend created by scientists who are quoting each other." says Wilmoth.

This is all very preliminary stuff, and it may certainly turn out that there is an absoulte, built-in limit to the Human lifespan. But it is significant that for most of Man's time on Earth the average lifespan would have seen most people dead and buried before they could take a legal drink in most of the industrialized world today.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Wolfrat]

Joe,
I said "Possible but not likely".
No disagreement that a some changes may have been made which made it quite possible. Furthermore, the avrage age as you mentioned does not apply to any one individual thus it is possible that Susan lived beyonf Delenn's passing.

I found your statement about Delenn's fate far more interesting than the trivia about whether Susan outlived Delenn or not. However, I have no comments on that issue.

 

[Nancy]

I wish JMS would write a book or a short story dealing with Delenn's fate. That would be sweet.

 

[Galahad]

Her quest to find Valen you mean?

I would like to think that the vision she had as a child was not just a hallucination, but that an ethereal Valen showed up to comfort her.

I would also like to believe that she went on a wild goose chase as she neared her death to find Valen, but seemigly failed, only to return to the same temple on Minbar where she had the vision as a child and be taken away by Valen ala Lorien and Sheridan, similar in some ways but different in others. Mind you, all this sounds a bit like the end to Watership Down!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Nancy]

Her quest to find Valen you mean?

Yes.

 

[Zathras]

[BTW, am I the only one who found JMS's reference to Delenn's "final journey" more interesting than the relatively trivial question of who outlived whom?

What strikes me as just as interesting as "Franklin's final fate on a distant, unexplored planet." Now that's a story I'd like to read.

 

[Nancy]

I'd like to see all the main characters' final fate.

 

[vacantlook]

Oh yeah. I think it's safe to say that most of us would take every last single drop of Babylon 5 that jms would give us.

Give us more.
Give us more!

 

[skyace]

>Oh yeah. I think it's safe to say that most of us would >take every last single drop of Babylon 5 that jms would >give us.

>Give us more.
>Give us more!

yea. knowing more is always good =) although, i wouldn't mind knowing about delenn's fate. we know that she lives past like 140 from Deconstruction. I dunno, but her going on a quest to find Valen when it's hard for her to walk is a bit iffy.

Personally, I'd hope that Lorien or Sheridan (or Sheridan convincing Lorien if Sheridan couldn't do it himself) come back to get Delenn. Otherwise Sheridan and Delenn wouldn't see each other in the place where no shadows fall =( and that wouldn't be cool now would it.