so did sheridan actually die @ z`ha`dum ??

[Infested Londo]

I just don't get one thing


Sheridan fell
His face must have smashed down into little pieces
Or at least get several hundreds nasty scarrs

Doesn't make sense he'll be back looking good as new...

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"If I don't see you again here... I will see you, in a little while... In a place where no shadows fall."

Babylon 5, my dear dear fellow fans, is the greatest thing on this earth. Understand how lucky you are for knowing it.

Live For The One
Die For The One
Eat At Joe's
Etc, etc.

 

[Galahad]

You know this topic is beginning to sound like the conversation between two Goldfish in a Goldfish bowl.

Fish 1: Nice Day for a swim, ooh look what's that over there?

Fish 2: It's a castle, stupid!

Fish 1: What's a castle?

Fish 2: I dunno.

Fish 1: Nice Day for a swim, ooh look what;s that over there?

Fish 2: It's a castle, stupid!

Fish 1: What's a castle?

Fish 2: I dunno.

Fish 1: Nice day....


(Based on the premise that a goldfish attention span lasts approx 6 seconds, though I have heard that it may be an old wives tale)

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Back when I was a kid in Sunday School, Father Minkowski once said: "Given the crucifixion was a terrible thing for anyone to endure, if you could go back in time 2200 years, would you prevent the crucifixion of Christ?" Well after a heated debate, we all agreed the answer was no. The crucifixion was necessary to redeem the world. - Lt. John Matheson "The Needs of Earth"

"We live for the One. We die for the One!"

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Infested Londo, Lorien repaired Sheridan's body. It was the repair system running out of energy that caused Sheridan to stop in "Sleeping in Light". Any scares will have been cured during the time on Z'ha'dum.

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Andrew Swallow

 

[Jomar]

Lorien says "I caught you before" which seems to answer the question why Sheridan wasn't smashed to bits after a 2-mile fall. So he could be near death when he meets Lorien, i.e. between tick and tock. Once Sheridan accepts the fact, then Lorien can revive him for a period of time, 20 years. However, I do think JMS left this for us to think about and each accept in his or her own way.

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I always seem to be diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

 

[GKarsEye]

Like many things in B5 (soul hunters, religions), it's left vague on purpose. Remember, B5 makes no attempt to preach us its world view (thank god), just to get us to think and examine our own beliefs. Whether or not Sheridan physically died and was resurrected, or "almost dead" and kept alive, or something else, is besides the point.

Kosh knew Sheridan would be alright, or at least figured he had a good shot at coming out alive. Lorien "caught" him, either physically or in a more ethereal plain.

It all depends on what you're willing to accept. I figure that a Christian, for example, may be more inclined lean towards the death/resurrection concept, since it's an important part of belief in Christ. I think of Sheridan's situation as being right before death, with Lorien entering his mind. I figure the conversation took place in a very short time, more like thought than verbal speech.

See, it's all subjective. As an atheist, I'm going to have a hard time accepting that someone died and "came back" to life.

It's the same with soul hunters: some would say that they actually "take souls." Some would use Dr. Franklin's explanation.

The point is, it could work either way without conflicting with the story.

Life is ambiguous. B5 is ambiguous. The show's "life-likeness" is why it's so good. Also it has Narns. Narns is good.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

 

[Jade Jaguar]

This question is certainly open to interpretation, and I don't think definitive answers are possible. If I were to make the most plausible answer given our understanding of science, without involving metaphysics, I would say Sheridan WAS dead, as someone who has just drowned, or had a heart stop in a heart attack, or any one of a number of ordinary ways in which someone is clinically dead, but still revivable. But I think he was just a little further gone than this, not brain dead, but with more physical dammage than our, or B5 human, science could cope with, but Lorien's little life energy donation brought his body back, while his mental conversation lead his mind back.

I do believe that Lorien caught him, as quoted, but even if Lorien could stop him without further harm, he could have been harmed in other ways, by the blast, as noted, or by hitting the walls of the pit. It is worth noting that theoretically he could have survived the two mile fall. I believe it was back in the 70's when a Czechoslovakian airline stewardess was sucked out at 20 or 30,000 feet, and survived, but with practically every bone broken. Once you reach terminal velocity, it doesn't matter how high you are!

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You're speaking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Maid Marian
Fluently! Errol Flynn as Robin Hood
You're talking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Arabella Bishop
I trust I'm not obscure. Errol Flynn as Dr. Peter Blood

Pallindromes of the month: Snug was I, ere I saw guns.
Doom an evil deed, liven a mood.

 

[jnk5y]

i think it's been said but i'll say it again... this is open ended leaving it to the viewer to decide for himself what to think. I like this about movies, books, tv shows, art (abstract). Instead of telling the person what to think it makes the viewer use their imagination as to what happend which is a great thing. Too many times shows try to make the viewers either feel dumb by explaining everything to them or dumb by leaving out way too much (xfiles IMHO) but b5 gives just enough to make you wonder but not too much to make it unfun (can't think of another word). My beef with the xfiles is that they never answer anything and leave it way to open for anyone to rationally discuss like we are doing now. Thank you JMS and i can't wait to see LotR.

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[MOmega]

The problem is that all of us can have on that question different opinion and may be all of us are right.
So my answer is: YES. He died, but truth is out there

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[whitestar90]

To me it was the death of his old personality.Because Dr Franklin once told Lyta that the "old" Sheriden would never have told him like this one did....

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"When it is time, come to this place, call our name, we will be here" -Walkers of Sigma957

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

My interpretation:

Sheridan was certainly the same person when he came back. He had retained his principles, preferences, customs, memories and way of understanding life. There had been remarkable changes, but their extent had been limited.

But Sheridan's body, the storage media for his essence... it had failed. It may have failed in a number of ways, including radiation, heat and collisions.

But no matter how his body failed, Lorien was able to prevent final failiure -- the loss of his soul/personality. This could have been done by either keeping his body sufficiently alive or somehow "removing" his essence from it for the time of their conversation (the tick & tock stuff).

Point of comparison:

Soul Hunters are believed to "remove" the soul from a dying body. The Minbari consider it a horrible crime for two reasons. Firstly they believe that there is more to soul than simply information. Imprisoning it and preventing it from re-joining the universe is against their views.

Secondly, even if a Soul Hunter only removes information, this information is removed in the form of a whole pesonality, capable of thought and feelings. To that personality, such eternal imprsonment is the most horrible form of torture, leading to complete insanity either sooner or later.

Back to my rambling:

So, either Lorien kept Sheridan alive enough for the information not to be lost... or stopped his essence from being destroyed by temporarily capturing it and starting their conversation.

In their conversation, Lorien learned interesting things about Sheridan and also determined that this person had something (or to be more exact someone) to live for. Thus Lorien tried to heal his body and get his essence fully restored to it. They were lucky and it succeeded, although it needed energy in some form from Lorien to be left in Sheridan to sustain him.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

My previous post also lead me to another long rambling, one which might be called an alternative way of explaining some Minbari beliefs -- without assuming the existence of a "soul" consisting of anything but organised information.

So, let us for instance assume that what we call a "soul" is simply information stored in matter. This information directs its own development, tries to understand itself and interacts with the world -- but it is information nevertheless.

It starts assembling itself as we form, grow and learn. It accepts new information, pieces of data from the world and pieces of other persons, interprets them and gives them meanings, engages in searches for understanding and at the same time reflects new information back to the surrounding world.

If the information is gradually altered by everyday life, a personality changes slowly. If it is altered abruptly, the change is noticable. If the storage media is destroyed, the information is lost... and the exact same personality will never come back again.

There are cases when a body can be resurrected but the memory, the experiences and the personality are gone -- erased. The media functions, but is void of personality and a new personality will start building itself. This would be the case after a complete "mindwipe". All that is left of the old personality/soul resides in memories of other people, thoughts committed to fixed form or other media from which it couldn't be erased.

In this light, one could piece together both the belief of souls being reborn... and that of them being unique. Each person, each soul would leave an echo of itself circulating in the world. Thoughts, deeds, ideas, opinions, impressions, memories, appearaces, everything the world can accept in one form or other.

These pieces, themselves based on the world and other "souls", would participate in forming new personalities which we might also call souls. They would live in the world their predecessors created, be new and yet also very old. Some would be a loose combination of many sources, some strikingly similar to a single person who has existed before -- or a seeming continuation of that person.

Perhaps this is the approach the Minbari take towards reincarnation and the soul being "a non-localized phenomenon".

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited November 17, 2001).]

 

[GaribaldisHair]

Having already embarrassed myself once in this thread by repeating what someone else had already said (better than me), it is with some trepidation that I venture out into the light again.

However, I don't think this has been brought up so far.

In an episode shortly after the return of Garibaldi and Sheridan, I am sure I recall Dr Franklin making some comment about some mysterious cell regeneration doohickies constantly repairing Sheridan's cells. He said he had never come across anything like them before.

These presumably were the little gift from Lorien that kept him alive for those 20 years.

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DaveC
"The lunch has already started,
it is too late for the sandwiches to vote"

 

[Alai]

Okay, heres the only thing I can come up with. If Kosh was still in him, even in part. He would have most likly kept him safe(Remember, he can fly too). Lorien just helped Kosh. Kosh sent Sheridan to Lorien, even though Sheridan just thought it was out of luck he found him.

Lorien's gift didn't come until Ulkesh killed him (aledgedly the 2nd time i his life) so I believe that this means that he didn't die on Z'ha'dum, because Lorien could still give him the gift. And I took that whole conversation to mean that he could only give that gift once. So, in my opinion, he didn't die.

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[hypatia]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alai:
Lorien's gift didn't come until Ulkesh killed him (aledgedly the 2nd time i his life) so I believe that this means that he didn't die on Z'ha'dum, because Lorien could still give him the gift. And I took that whole conversation to mean that he could only give that gift once. So, in my opinion, he didn't die.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is generating some very interesting conversation! And Lennier's conversation sounds a lot like that film that Mira Furlan starred in that I'd like to find which discussed a kind of combined metaphysical/modern physics/environmental/philosophical attitude.

About all I'm going to say is: JMS will be happy that people are still talking about it. He admits, I think, that he leaves some areas open on purpose, just to make people think. You know, the whole "Lady or the Tiger" thing?

At least he didn't cheapen it, and make it all a dream sequence!

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"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

"I think I speak for Mr. Bloom and myself when I say: you are the only director in the World who can do justice to 'Springtime For Hitler' " - Zero Mostel, The Producers

 

[bakana]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Lorien's gift didn't come until Ulkesh killed him (aledgedly the 2nd time i his life) so I believe that this means that he didn't die on Z'ha'dum, because Lorien could still give him the gift. And I took that whole conversation to mean that he could only give that gift once. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What Lorien said was:


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> "He was gravely wounded at Z'ha'dum. He was dying. He was dead. I did all I could to help him, but I can not create life, only the universe can do that.
I can extend, enhance, there is no magic, nothing spiritual about it, only the application of energies, healing and rebuilding cells."

Lorien to Delenn in Babylon 5:"Falling Toward Apotheosis" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, no, he wasn't Quite Dead, but so close as to make almost no difference.

But, it clearly states that Lorien gave him the healing energies at Z'Ha'Dum.
After the fight with Ulkesh, Lorien had to Renew those energies because the Entity that fought Ulkesh was composed of equal parts of Kosh, Lorien AND Sheridan.
Kosh provided Knowledge, Lorien provided Power, Sheridan provided Will & Determination.


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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

 

[GaribaldisHair]

One other question springs to mind here.

Was it the case that Sheridan only had 20 years right from the encounter at Z'ha'dum, or was it the fight with Ulkesh (and further intervention from Lorien) that created that restriction?

The latter seems logical, but on the other hand Sheridan himself does not appear particularly surprised by the revelation which implies that he already knew!

Any thoughts anyone?

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DaveC
"The lunch has already started,
it is too late for the sandwiches to vote"

 

[Alai]

I always thought it was odd that Lorien guessed perfectly on how many years he had left. I think it would have been better if Sheridan had had say 21 years in the end.

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[bakana]

Lorien didn't guess "perfectly". He said "about" 20 years. Maybe more, maybe less.

He also included variables such as sickness, accident, war, etc. as possibly cutting that time Much shorter.

The fact that his estimate was very close isn't That surprizing.
He's had a billion years to practice guessing.

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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

 

[Jade Jaguar]

I hesitate to disagree with Bakana, because I'm not absolutely sure, but I believe that Lorien did say no more than 20 years, while leaving it inexact, that it could be shorter, as Bakana says.

------------------
You're speaking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Maid Marian
Fluently! Errol Flynn as Robin Hood
You're talking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Arabella Bishop
I trust I'm not obscure. Errol Flynn as Dr. Peter Blood

Pallindromes of the month: Snug was I, ere I saw guns.
Doom an evil deed, liven a mood.