So it appears JMS has taken down B5 scrolls

[Republibot 3.0]

From what JMS wrote in the first Crusade: What the Hell Happened book, the original idea was to be along the lines of the Knights of the Round Table going out and building the Interstellar Alliance's empire.

Never read it. So does he let slip any more nuggets about what Crusade was *supposed* to be like?

For instance: was it ship-based (Which has been done to death), or was it team based (such as, say, Justice League Unlimited) where the team-of-the-week just grabs whatever White Star is available and heads off to solve that week's problem?

The second is FAR more interesting to me. I've grown to hate ship-based shows.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Regarding the 5 year countdown clock, I thought was just JMS' way of making it a five year/five season series JUST LIKE B5.


....and by that, I DON'T mean that JMS would've strung out finding the cure to the plague for five seasons. The false cure, and then the REAL cure were to be found before Season 2 was completed. After that, it probably would've got into the things like Galen's pursuit and destruction of leftover Shadowtech, maybe Galen teaching the other Technomages how to eliminate the Shadow programming in their internal Shadowtech and how to live in harmony with their Shadowtech, and possibly the return of the Technomages.

Well, he's basically said the cure would have been found in season 2. He never liked the idea, and wanted it off the boards as soon as he could. We don't really know what Crusade was about any more than we would have known what B5 was about if we'd only gotten 13 episodes of it. What we saw was all setup. The 'real' story hadn't started yet, and it would doubtless have ended far before the end, when some other major plot would have replaced it.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Maybe in the years since everyone has just forgotten about that, the way people only remember Gene Roddenberry and forget Bob Justman. But being there at the beginning it seems strange to me that people would argue that JMS was taking all the credit when that clearly wasn't the case.

There's a very clear difference here: Roddenberry was a glory-whore. He took credit for everything. Anything good on the show he took credit for. Anything bad he blamed on someone else. Did it constantly, and did it publicly. And when caught in a lie (As he frequently was), he just would say he misremembered, apologize, take it back, and a week later he'd be telling the same story. Basically from the time of the first Trek Convetion until the day he died, Roddenberry's only mission was to convince the world that Roddenberry was great, and no one would ever have been able to do crap without him. So it's not like people *forgot* Bob Justman, or Herb Solow, or John Black, or the rest, it's that Roddenberry deliberately retconned their contributions out of existence to feed his own ego.

JMS never, never, never, never, never, EVER did that. Never.

JMS: basically a good guy
Roddenberry: basically a horrible guy.

I base this opinion on my friendship with people connected with TOS and TNG who had dealings with him, and accounts written by others who have no reason to lie

That said, there was an interview recently with JMS that JMS linked to on his Facebook page that in the introduction said he'd won the two Emmys for B5, when of course it was Optic Nerve and Foundation Imaging that won the Emmys. So for someone coming late to B5 I can see how they might think it was all JMS from reading things like that.

Yeah. Well, coulda' been shorthand. "I" for "We" or a misquote, or whatever.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Tom says:

As you can probably guess from Jan’s comments that whole idea of me making up a straw man argument has haunted the website ever since it started (assuming you saw what she said before I finally banned her ass after 6, or so, years of her following me round the net saying I’m making stuff up).

.
Jan

Wait, wait, wait: Jan is a woman?!?!?!

I in no way intend this to sound insulting, but I always assumed I was speaking to a Czech. I have no idea how I got that impression in my fool head.

 

[Jan]

The point was that WB didn't care until JMS informed them. So JMS went out of his way to get them taken down after an argument.

If they go back up as long as there is proper copyright credit then no harm no foul.

Actually, there's been no indication whatsoever that JMS informed anybody about anything. Believe me, there's no attorney around who'd have taken such quick action even if JMS did go to WB to report the site. And JMS simply couldn't have gone any route except through Warner's.

Remember, all this came down in the wee hours of Sunday morning Eastern) and Tom/Triple F took the site down before 5 PM on Tuesday.

Tom seemed to think that the artists whose work he was displaying had some right to do so. The fact is, that WB allowed them to keep originals was pretty much a gift to them and quite a number of pieces have been sold by the artists. But the work they did was 'work for hire' which meant that whatever they created belongs to WB as the creator for copyright purposes. They have no rights at all to share any of it or to 'give permission' to Tom to post it.

Face it, he had *years* to do the right thing and failed to do so. He squandered any possibility of goodwill from WB long ago.

LOL! Yes, I'm female. Here in the States, Jan is a female name, usually short for Janet or Janice whereas outside of the US it tends to be a male name with a different pronunciation. And just to get a little more weird, my full name is Jan M. Schroeder - initials JMS.

Jan

 

[Republibot 3.0]

LOL! Yes, I'm female. Here in the States, Jan is a female name, usually short for Janet or Janice whereas outside of the US it tends to be a male name with a different pronunciation. And just to get a little more weird, my full name is Jan M. Schroeder - initials JMS.

Jan

Perhaps the initials are why FFF doesn't get along with you:guffaw:?

I never used an emoticon before. Cool!

Anyway, yeah, I've known a few "Jans" in the US, too, including this guy
http://kevin-long.com/what.asp?who=kevin&id=136 I don't know why I immediately assumed you were a dude, but there you have it. I'm just wonky.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

I also found it hard to believe that he had never seen Starblazers before creating Crusade as it was the only strongly arc oriented cartoon I remember from the late 70's. But it's certainly possible as it was hard to get a channel with that show in certain areas.

As I said, I don't think JMS lies, but he has said he dissembles on occasion in order to protect stuff that needs to be protected for whatever reason.

What really strains credulity about the whole "I never heard of Star Blazers" thing, however, is that season 2 prominantly features a character named "Captain Gideon" who commands the most advanced and heavily beweaponed ship in the earth fleet.

I'm not even sure how one would calculate the odds against that kidn of coincidence happening, namewise, but I'd say it's *GOT* to be at the very least 1200:1 against. Why? 'Cuz there's about 1200 separate male names in the Bible. <G>

 

[Jan]

What really strains credulity about the whole "I never heard of Star Blazers" thing, however, is that season 2 prominantly features a character named "Captain Gideon" who commands the most advanced and heavily beweaponed ship in the earth fleet.

I'm not even sure how one would calculate the odds against that kidn of coincidence happening, namewise, but I'd say it's *GOT* to be at the very least 1200:1 against. Why? 'Cuz there's about 1200 separate male names in the Bible. <G>

The character's original name was Singleton.

Jan

 

[Republibot 3.0]

The character's original name was Singleton.

Jan

Why'd Joe change it?

 

[Jan]

The character's original name was Singleton.

Jan

Why'd Joe change it?

Unknown, but it may have been a clearance issue (read: The legal folks wouldn't let him for some reason). All I know is that the progression was Singleton, then Drake and then Gideon and JMS confirmed that there were biblical reasons for the name. A friend tells me that the name Gideon means 'Destroyer' or 'Mighty Warrior' or 'Feller of Trees'.

Jan

 

[Republibot 3.0]

The character's original name was Singleton.

Jan

Why'd Joe change it?

Unknown, but it may have been a clearance issue (read: The legal folks wouldn't let him for some reason). All I know is that the progression was Singleton, then Drake and then Gideon and JMS confirmed that there were biblical reasons for the name. A friend tells me that the name Gideon means 'Destroyer' or 'Mighty Warrior' or 'Feller of Trees'.

Jan

Drake, huh? Might simply be that it's been used ("John Drake: Secret Agent" and "Duck Drake" and Disney's "Drake Mallard," etc.). Or it might just be that the story of Gideon had more resonance for the Crusade story (Which has always been my assumption, though I have no idea what that might mean)

Here's the cliff notes version for people who aren't particularly Bible-readers

In the pre-monarchy days of Israel, the country existed as a loose confederation of 12 tribes. Periodicaly threats would arive, and a "Judge" would arise, lead the people to victory, then Judge the country (A rather vague description) until they died. The internal chronology is somewhat unclear, so it's possible some of the judges were at the same time, or overlapped or whatever. The only other particularly famous judge was Sampson.

In the mid-12th century BC, Israel had turned it's back on God (Which it did fairly reglularly) and was invalded by the Amalekites . He led a crusade to destroy all the shrines, altars, and temple of Ba'al and associated pagan gods from the land, then put together an army (Consisting of only members of 4 tribes interestingly), then defeats the Amalekites.

Gideon is noteworthy for two things:

1) Gideon displays a rather staggering lack of faith when called by God at the start of his story. He asks for sign upon sign upon sign, which he's granted.

2) Gideon is told by God to send most of his forces away so history will show this victory was the work of God and just just two armies whackin' on each other. Despite havint 22,000 able-bodied men, Gideon sends home all but 300 I believe.

The final battle is interesting. Gideon's forces surround the Amalekite camp at night, and on cue, they all smash a large clay pot on the ground in unison, light torches, and scream "The sword of the Lord and of Gideon!" The Amalekies are startled awake and thrown into utter confusion, and Gideon's army basically slaughters them.

And that's pretty much that. "Excalibur" is a sword...it's in the book of Judges if anyone wants to try to ferret out more clues.

 

[Jan]

Drake, huh? Might simply be that it's been used ("John Drake: Secret Agent" and "Duck Drake" and Disney's "Drake Mallard," etc.). Or it might just be that the story of Gideon had more resonance for the Crusade story (Which has always been my assumption, though I have no idea what that might mean)

Thanks for the Cliff's Notes version of the story.

I've always assumed (based on no evidence at all) that Drake may have just been a placeholder name. JMS tends to use some names regularly, such as Elizabeth, Mack and David and Drake seems to be one of those. Just off hand, we had Nelson Drake in Infection, Captain Drake in Severed Dreams, Drake in Brown Fourteen in Conflicts of Interest (okay, that wasn't an actual character) and Assistant Director Drake in The Corps is Mother, the Corps is Father and finally, Drake in A Call to Arms. It may not have been really intended to be the final name, just a placeholder while Gideon was going through clearance.

Jan

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Drake, huh? Might simply be that it's been used ("John Drake: Secret Agent" and "Duck Drake" and Disney's "Drake Mallard," etc.). Or it might just be that the story of Gideon had more resonance for the Crusade story (Which has always been my assumption, though I have no idea what that might mean)

Thanks for the Cliff's Notes version of the story.

I've always assumed (based on no evidence at all) that Drake may have just been a placeholder name. JMS tends to use some names regularly, such as Elizabeth, Mack and David and Drake seems to be one of those. Just off hand, we had Nelson Drake in Infection, Captain Drake in Severed Dreams, Drake in Brown Fourteen in Conflicts of Interest (okay, that wasn't an actual character) and Assistant Director Drake in The Corps is Mother, the Corps is Father and finally, Drake in A Call to Arms. It may not have been really intended to be the final name, just a placeholder while Gideon was going through clearance.

Jan

Yeah, that makes sence. Captain Kirk's name was originally Robert April until someone told Roddenberry that hard-K sounds play better for character names, then we got Kirk, SpocK, McKoy, SKott, and CheKov.. Scotty's name was originaly "Lt. Engineer". Apollo's name from Galactica was originally "Skyler."

 

[Triple F]

Except that as creator/showrunner, JMS gets full credit from the Academy for any of the technical Emmys. At some point I think there was a post in one of the magazines where his certificates (not statues) were displayed.

Jan

I’d like to ask a question. Where do you get this from. That a certificate purchased at the ceremony gives jms the same credit (from the academy) as being a named recipient who is called up on stage to receive the statue.

And just out of curiosity. Supposing this certificate did allow him, or others, to refer to jms as an emmy award winner – under what category would that be. In the version of reality that you live in, is jms an emmy award winning FX artist, makeup artist, writer . . . . . . producer?

I’ll also ask for a third and final time. Will you please retract your claim that I’ve been fraudulently editing his wikipedia article - or at the very least highlight what it is I’m supposed to have done.

[edit]
You know the irony in this. You and jms have said I’m building a straw man argument that some fans are giving him a bit too much credit as they don’t know any better (since his name is the one most widely associated with most aspects of the show). The thing is all in my head, it doesn’t happen, so I built it just so I can pull it down while attacking him (for whatever reason), and in doing so I’m “Morally Bankrupt”.

And here YOU are trying to argue the point that the emmy awards won by FI and Optic Nerve means that jms can be called an emmy award winner . . . . . . . . My God your proving my point for me. Not only are you giving him awards he didn’t earn – but your making stuff up to justify *your* mistaken belief . . . . . while calling me a liar. Wow!

 

[Jan]

Not engaging any longer, Tom. I'm done with you.

Jan

 

[Triple F]

Well, since it's a word you used to describe me recently. Who is the coward afraid to discuss things now, Jan?

 

[Republibot 3.0]

I'll jump in 'cuz I'm curious.

What are the regulations on the recipients of Emmys? Is it awarded to the show, or the individual, or the team, or what? For instance, if I'm a cast member of "Guiding Light" (To pick a show quite literally at random) and I get "Best overweight middle-aged actor in a daytime drama" then obviously *I* won the award, right? But at the same time the *show* also won the award, or so they'll say in the PR from that point on ("Daytime Emmy Award-Winning series" or at the very least "Series featuring the Daytime Emmy Award-Winning performance by...") My point being it's the nature of the show to take credit for as many awards as possible. If three of us on the cast win awards, then the PR flacks will brag about the SHOW winning three awards that season. Furthermore, the production bosses will keep track of those things and say stuff like "The show won 27 Emmys during my tenure".

I'm not arguing, I'm asking a question: who can legitimately say they got the award, and who is allowed to say they got it as a form of conversational shorthand?

 

[Jan]

When I looked it up several years ago, there were very strict criteria as to who could get the Emmy certificates. Afraid I'm not able to look it up at the moment but there was a page that designated who could get commemorative duplicate statuettes, plaques and certificates. That would probably be a place to start.

Jan

 

[Republibot 3.0]

I’d like to ask a question. Where do you get this from. That a certificate purchased at the ceremony gives jms the same credit (from the academy) as being a named recipient who is called up on stage to receive the statue.

And just out of curiosity. Supposing this certificate did allow him, or others, to refer to jms as an emmy award winner – u[...]n be called an emmy award winner . . . . . . . . My God your proving my point for me. Not only are you giving him awards he didn’t earn – but your making stuff up to justify *your* mistaken belief . . . . . while calling me a liar. Wow!

FFF,

I'm new to this feud, and trying to catch up from context, which is murky going.

Could you tell me exactly what your stance is? I don't really have a dog in this race, so be as frank as you like, I won't get offended.

 

[Triple F]

What Jan said. Yes, I can agree with Jan . . . . . . on the rarist of occasions. Has something to do with lunar cycles, unicycles or something.

Here's a link, probably not the one Jan is referring to, but it covers the same sort of ground.
http://midwestemmys.org/about/order/