Speculate: A New Galactic World Order under the Shadows?

[Trollheart]

Assume, just for a moment, that something happened. Sheridan went to Zha'dum and didn't jump, and was killed. Or Delenn never met Sinclair, and so Babylon 4 never went back in time. Or Sheridan, Delenn and Ivanova spontaneous combusted at the same time.

Whatever. The point is that the war was lost, and the Shadows kicked the Vorlons out, or destroyed them. Lorien never came into the picture, as Sheridan never met him to bring him back with him to Babylon 5 and marshall the First Ones.

So...

In a New World Order throughout the galaxy, under the Shadows, what would have happened? We know from Lorien and from Kosh, and from Jeremiah (was it?) that the Shadows did not want to destroy the galaxy, just shake things up a bit, make the strong come to the fore.

So who would have profited, and who would have lost? Which races would have become dominant, and which gone under? Would the Centauri have continued, and expanded, their war of agression against their neighbours, and how would that have played out? Would the Narns even exist, without a place like B5 as sanctuary? How would Earth fit in to the New Order, remembering the influence the Shadows had with Psi Corps and EarthGov?

And without Sheridan to lead the rebellion against Clark, could he have been deposed, after the war, or would his alliances with the Shadows and Psi Corps have made him invincible?

In other words, what if ... the worst had come to pass? How bad would it have been?

 

[KoshFan]

I'll tell you one thing right now: it wouldn't be called "Order."

 

[vorlonlovechild]

Would it have been any different?

Take for example Delenns words in War without End to Sheridan - that there are always battles to be fought against the darkness - only the names change.

Maybe this would apply to the Vorlons as well - someone would take their 'position' in the grand scheme of things and everything would remain the same. The shadows would have done their bit and disappeared. Earth & Centauri Prime would become powerhouses in intergalactic politics and warfare, Humanity's 'normals' would be slaves to a police state run by telepaths and probably used in biological weapon research, the Narn would be crushed and disappear, the minbari would become isolated and take up the ideals of the Vorlons - thus becoming the most powerful race to oppose any earth / centauri alliance or shadow influence. Another 1000 years on and it would all kick off again.

There must be balance.

 

[Galahad]

I think one problem here is that you are looking at it from the younger race point of view pre Z Day.

The Vorlons themselves weren't in danger from the Shadows... as Sheridan realised, so it's wrong to assume that losing the Shadow War = ultimate defeat for the Vorlons.

The only thing that was in danger was there investment in that particular generational conflict.

Remember there have been countless Shadow Wars, we are only aware of the outcome of the last one. Who is to say that the Vorlon supported factions have won every single one?

If Sheridan or Sinclair's fate had been different it would have by no means been the last Shadow War.

In the case of Sinclair:

The Shadows would eventually be driven back 1,000 years ago or make it look like they were driven back haven achieved their objective. They in all likelihood didn't too significantly affect the Minbari population (although their culture would have been unrecognisable as there would have been no Valen and no Rangers), as in the alternate time line B5 was still created... therefore there was an Earth-Minbari war or at least something akin to it, I'm guessing the latter as without Sinclair going back there would have been no reason for the Minbari to surrender... so either it's a different conflict or something else halted their onslaught. The status of the other races is not knowable as the previous history of this time line would only have been visible if B4 didn't go back. Without B4, B5 goes up and this Shadow War ends in a similar manner to the previous one.

In the case of Sheridan:

A lot more interesting as we know of several people the Shadows were worried would take over and rally the Army of Light (Garibaldi, Delenn or Ivanova). This is why they kidnapped Garibaldi of course, in order to subvert the chances of that happening. It would be very interesting to see how this would have played out, as when the three players are reintroduced to one another... it comes at a time when Delenn and Ivanova had turned a corner and were preparing to strike back following their grief.

My guess is that either Ivanova and Delenn were successful enough in rallying support for an assault on Z'Ha'Dum... driving the Shadows back for 1,000 years but pretty much annihilating themselves in the process, or Garibaldi's dissension would have destabilised the Alliance leaving the way open for the Shadows to accomplish their goal.

I would assume that in either case, the Shadows I assume would consider their objectives complete with the instigation of a second Earth-Minbari War. Earth and Minbar would be the last two major players standing in the way of an interstellar free for all. I think that after this started happening, the Shadows would disappear. Presumably the vorlons would either disappear and regroup 1,000 years later or try to restore order and then disappear. Either way it would be considered a Shadow victory because the collapse in galactic order would be sufficient to achieve their goals this time around.

 

[Trollheart]

Excellent answer, Galahad: well thought out indeed.

I do wonder though what would have happened with Psi Corps, assuming Sheridan was out of the picture? The Shadows knew telepaths could harm them, but of course no-one else (assuming Garibaldi had died/not discovered the scret/not been able to pass it on), so when Psi Corps made its eventual grab for power, woudl the Shadows have been in their way? Would, in fact, the Psi Cops and the other teeps have turned to battling the Shadows (and maybe the Vorlons), purely for their own survival, and would, in a weird, turnabout way, Psi Corps have become the last, best hope for Earth?

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Excellent answer, Galahad: well thought out indeed.

I do wonder though what would have happened with Psi Corps, assuming Sheridan was out of the picture? The Shadows knew telepaths could harm them, but of course no-one else (assuming Garibaldi had died/not discovered the scret/not been able to pass it on), so when Psi Corps made its eventual grab for power, woudl the Shadows have been in their way? Would, in fact, the Psi Cops and the other teeps have turned to battling the Shadows (and maybe the Vorlons), purely for their own survival, and would, in a weird, turnabout way, Psi Corps have become the last, best hope for Earth?

I suspect that the telepaths would have been wiped out by the virus. The spider ships would not find destroying the antidote factories difficult. That may have been how the Shadows won. Doubly so if the virus had automatically adapted to kill non-human telepaths.

 

[Trollheart]

Interesting... but surely if the labs on Mars were destroyed, the virus itself would be too (assuming Bester hadn't been able to get to it/know if it as he wouldn't have been in a position to enlist Garibaldi), so making the point somewhat moot?
In fact, without Michael's intervention, who would even KNOW of the virus, much less the antidote?

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Interesting... but surely if the labs on Mars were destroyed, the virus itself would be too (assuming Bester hadn't been able to get to it/know if it as he wouldn't have been in a position to enlist Garibaldi), so making the point somewhat moot?
In fact, without Michael's intervention, who would even KNOW of the virus, much less the antidote?

By the time the Shadows attacked the virus would have been released so every telepath would have been infected.

 

[KoshN]

I believe that the proper Kosh Naranek reply to this whole thing is "No."