Spoilers for TechMage boks in here

[Cern]

Dangit that should have said BOOKS. Oh well...

Galens Spell of Destruction and Isabelles Shadow Communication Spell are both simple, One-term equations in Galens Spell Language.

Anybody want to guess what other horrible little 1 term spells the Mages have yet to uncover?

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Never start a fight, but ALWAYS finish it.

" The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate for the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise to the occasion. We can not escape history. We will be remembered, in spite of ourselves. The fiery trial through which we pass will light us down in honor or dishonor, to the last generation. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose our last best hope."

[This message has been edited by Cern (edited October 02, 2001).]

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

If there is a spell for collapsing an area into a separate universe... then there might also be an explosive and messy way to destroy something.

But there may be none -- as a technomage can't conjure spells over distance, messy ways of attacking would be dangerous for their user. Or there might be some spells which *can* be conjured from distance.

The spell for listening to Shadows might have an opposite - talking to them. A Shadow equivalent of Teep abilities -- if the Shadows considered mages important enough to talk to them.

If spells of healing are complex, spells of disease should be simple. Something that wreaks havoc with tissues and molecular structure, causing them to break down. Consider it the equivalent of advanced Teek abilities.

The latter would be a possibility if the mages actually use *spells* for healing - perhaps they only use the organelles their tech produces?

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

 

[Derian]

They do only use the organelles, but with their tech, they can control and stimulate those, to a certain extent. Jeanne posted a good bit on that over at ISN. I'll try and dig it up later.

There is something very odd going on. The spells are only so simple in Galen's language. Isabelle's version of the listening spell was incredibly complex, for example. However, Galen's spell language is perhaps the most organized and orderly, rule-abiding language of any of the mages. -- Anyone find it odd that he is then discovering spells that directly link him to the most chaotic and disorderly creatures in the universe?

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I'm lobbying for someplace more comfortable for our next gathering place. A nice resort with a beach. A bunch of pale skinned technomages in black robes would fit right in.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

If the tech was built by the Shadows... and Galen's spell language can most easily use it for what it was built for (destruction, receiving commands from Shadows) -- then can we assume that it somehow resembles the Shadow way of thinking?

Somehow I doubt that the Shadows would have an orderly way of thinking. Being First Ones they are certainly capable of it -- but they would probably find it inconvenient.

On the other hand, the Shadows didn't build the tech for themselves. They built it for the Taratimude, who might have thought in such a way. Given the nature of the Taratimude language, this might be more probable.

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

 

[Quagmire]

Perhaps a shield spell, similar to Isabelle's best work since Galen seems to suck at them.



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Bus

"Yeah, we could start our own game where people throw ducks at balloons and nothing's the way it seems."-Homer

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Perhaps the Shadows didn't incorporate the possibility of *easily* creating efficient shields -- for this might encourage defending, not attacking. A Shadow would certainly prefer the latter.

On another note, I have noticed very few details about how a flying platform is conjured. But I would guess that the most powerful spell of movement simply accelerates things. Can anyone say "mass driver"?

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

 

[Cern]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lennier:
Can anyone say "mass driver"?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

thats a good point. If the Destructo-spell is the basis for a fireball, then the Flying Platform could be related to a Mass Driver spell...

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Never start a fight, but ALWAYS finish it.

" The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate for the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise to the occasion. We can not escape history. We will be remembered, in spite of ourselves. The fiery trial through which we pass will light us down in honor or dishonor, to the last generation. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose our last best hope."

[This message has been edited by Cern (edited October 03, 2001).]

 

[Cern]

Alwyn has those Holodemons....Has anybody read the comic THE DARKNESS? maybe the basis for that spell is to conjure an army of holographic soldiers.

------------------
Never start a fight, but ALWAYS finish it.

" The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate for the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise to the occasion. We can not escape history. We will be remembered, in spite of ourselves. The fiery trial through which we pass will light us down in honor or dishonor, to the last generation. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose our last best hope."

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lennier:
On the other hand, the Shadows didn't build the tech for themselves. They built it for the Taratimude, who might have thought in such a way. Given the nature of the Taratimude language, this might be more probable.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can see your point there Lennier and I may be wrong here but the Shadows 'custom' made the tech to suit the recipient of the tech. It just so happened that the Taratimude were the first to ever receive it.
Since the Mages took delivery of both chrysalis's and the tech to implant apprentices and Full Mages respectively, wouldn't the tech be most useful if it were more in tune to the type of life form that was receiving the tech?
The tech may have been 'universal' to some degree but maybe some small things were adjusted within the structure of the tech.

The Mages had to train to use the tech effectively, and did this by developing their own spell language to control it properly, but I never really got the impression that they all had to think like a Taratimude.(If they in fact ever thought that way

)
Maybe the Shadows intended making spells of destruction and chaos to make it far easier to destroy than do good, but it seems to me that it was up to the interpretation of the individual Mage and his spell language to decide what was in fact the easiest and hardest spells to invoke.

Next Topic: Pro & Cons of Spell Languages

Well thats my $0.02

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[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Next Topic: Pro & Cons of Spell Languages

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And in the next thread we will present you our annual "Object Pascal versus C++" debate.

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

 

[jgsugden]

A few things:

The Shadows do use defense. Invisibility is their trademark ability. That is certainly a defensive ability.

Crusade fans will remember some abilities Galen used on the show. Some of those abilities have not been used by Galen so far in the books. I have not done so, but if we assume JMS & Co. thought things through, we may be able to figure out what new powers Galen might discover through viewing his 'future' Crusade self.

The concepts and definitions used in the spell must be very simple. The listen spell can be described very simply - listen. The spell that removes things to a new unstable dimension can be described very simply - remove or destroy. I assume any other one symbol spell will be very simple as well ... not an illuionary army, not a woven wall, etc ... It will also be a simple ability that would benefit the shadows.

I guess we'll just have to wait a little longer to find out.

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The views expressed in this posting do not reflect in a mirror.

 

[bakana]

One way of looking at it is that the Additional symbols in Galen's spell language would be the Safety Instructions for the basic spell.

The, "oh, by the way, I just want to light a cigaret, not burn down Chicago" instructions modifying the "give me a Flame" spell.



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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Organized choas, an interesting idea Wyvern.

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Andrew Swallow

 

[whitestar90]

Perhaps they could develop shield tech that the shadows could not pass through...not a horrible little spell but one they could have done with..

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"When it is time, come to this place, call our name, we will be here" -Walkers of Sigma957

 

[bakana]

The Shadows were Not chaotic. Their actions Looked chaotic because we didn't understand the underlying Rules of the war. Or the Shadow's objectives.

Remember that, when Sheridan finally Did realize what the Objectives were, everything the Shadows had done suddely made Perfect sense.

Their belief was that races Evolve Better & Faster by Overcoming the Chaos of War. IOW, the ultimate goal Was Order. It is reflected in the fact that they had Servant Races, such as the Drakh, organized into a hierarchy.

You could also infer that the Shadows lacked Patience. They wanted the job to go more Quickly.

The Vorlons believed that races evolve inevitably and that Order evolves From Order.

The Vorlon POV probably was a natural consequence of the fact that the Vorlon language is based on Music. Music is Very Orderly.



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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?

 

[Cern]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bakana:
One way of looking at it is that the Additional symbols in Galen's spell language would be the Safety Instructions for the basic spell.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point.

I was just thinking of the part in Casting Shadows when the cloaked Shadow stuck his head into Galens Holographic (?) wall, and the two fields cancelled each other out. Doesn't this imply that they work on similar principals? In other words, the Shadows cloak is holographic in nature?

------------------
Never start a fight, but ALWAYS finish it.

" The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate for the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise to the occasion. We can not escape history. We will be remembered, in spite of ourselves. The fiery trial through which we pass will light us down in honor or dishonor, to the last generation. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose our last best hope."

 

[Wyvern]

As I understand the spell system, from Galen's point of view, you have the base, single-equation spell. Any alterations to that base equation would be modifiers, inverters, simplifiers, and the like. So, if there was to be a communication spell (communicating to the Shadows - which seems unnecessary since they seem to understand English (or whatever) just fine) it would be at least a 2-equation spell. But I believe that whoever said that a healing spell would be based off a single-equation disease spell is probably absolutely right.

So, you can probably figure out all the single-equation spells by breaking everything down to their base component, ignoring anything which would be a positive reverse of something negative. A shield spell, for example, would probably be based on the inversion of the Spell of Destruction. All communications spells would break down to the Shadow communication spell. The floating disk thing would probably just be gravity reversal over a large area... and so on.

I disagree with the idea that a single-equation spell was too "orderly" for the shadows. Chaos is simplicity. It's just the way things happen. A single-equation spell is simplicity, but the end results are chaotic. It requires a ton of extra equations to make the single-equation spell into something useful. The spell of destruction is simple - but uncontrollable. The spell of communication is simple - but its use is dangerous. A disease would be a single-equation spell - but who knows how it would spread. A weapon is simple, but it sure makes killing a lot easier... and I don't believe that the shadows are totally creatures of chaos, that's just their point of view. If they were purely creatures of chaos, I don't think that Morden would have been as effective. They promote chaos, but they aren't completely chaotic themselves.

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[Cern]

I think about this stuff too much.

I was thinking that if the healing spell uses Mage Organelles, maybe the basic postulate would use the Organelles to kill.

Could the Mages Organelles be related to the Drakh Plague?

Wouldnt it be cool if the cure to the Plague was the Blood of the Mages? Considering how the Drakh probably hate the Mages at this point, perhaps that would be an added benefit...the only way to save earth would be to kill the Technomages.

I doubt it...but the Drakh are very patient.

------------------
Never start a fight, but ALWAYS finish it.

" The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate for the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise to the occasion. We can not escape history. We will be remembered, in spite of ourselves. The fiery trial through which we pass will light us down in honor or dishonor, to the last generation. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose our last best hope."

 

[SamGadsby]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doctor Gonzo:
Perhaps a shield spell, similar to Isabelle's best work since Galen seems to suck at them.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree completely. When they talk about the shields, it isn't strength, it's integrity. Isabelle's shield was very tightly woven. In the series Galen was able to conjure a shield to block nanobots from infecting him. His shield has to be tightly woven.

Another could be the spell he used to bend light around him in the unproduced Crusade scripts.


I think he said he has 3 other one-term spells.

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2466614
"Gideon says we all have things to hide."
"Does he? How unfortunate, I was hoping he'd come further than that. Well not that it isn't true of course, it's just that one simply doesn't have to say it."

 

[Quagmire]

If the shield spell is a one term spell I think Galen would find this out when he gets around to translating her spells. The need for a shield to avenge her may be one of the few things that could motivate him to wade through the pain of examining her spells.

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Bus

"Yeah, we could start our own game where people throw ducks at balloons and nothing's the way it seems."-Homer