Spread out s4 into s5?

[Droshalla]

Do you think Babylon 5 would have benefitted overall if they knew they were going to get a fifth season early on? Do you think it would have been better to spread out the arcs and end s4 with "Intersections in Real Time"?

I can see this having advantages and disadvantages. It would probably have diminished s4, but would have given the chance to legnthen the Shadow War for a few more eps (but would that have been better?). It would probably have improved s5, giving it a kick start to the season by ending the civil-war threads and then moving on.

Would Claudia Christian still have left? Who knows. But if she did and SiL was not filmed early, she would probably not have been in the finale.

What do you think?


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"If it isn't then it's not;
and if it is, well then there you are."

 

[Ranger One]

Although I really liked the fast pace of Season 4 (it was great knowing every episode was going to be an event), simply for the sake of Season 5 (and the overall show), it would have been better had JMS known he was getting the full 5 years. I can't answer the Claudia Christian question, but I would like to think she would've stuck around if they had a guaranteed 5th season.

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To alcohol, the cause of, and solution to, all life's problems. -Homer Simpson

 

[PsiProne]

I think the early episodes of S5 would have greatly benefitted if some of s4 was in s5, especially the telepath arc and the Earth civil war arc. I think it would've great to see Byron and Susan in a relationship, JMS did afterall have all this emotional baggage with her just waiting to explode. Now we'll never see it. I mean that WAS the original plan anyway. I think Claudia would have stayed, but I also think the biggest factor with her leaving also involved the whole moving to TNT thing.

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"You cannot stop someone who's been touched by Vorlons!"
"I tried so hard and got so far, in the end it doesn't even matter."

 

[Ninja_Squirrel]

If there had been a guarantee for s5 and s4 had been stretched out, the quality could have gone either way. Season 4 might have moved more slowly, risking a drag effect; or it could have opened up opportunities for more character/plot development and maybe even some storythreads that were taken out altogether that we don't even know about.

Stretching out s4 into s5 would have given more meat to s5 and may have helped condense the telepath thread which definitely dragged on too long. It also would have been nice the see the Earth Civil War end just a few episodes into a season the way the Shadow War end a few eps into s4.

However, one thing I definitely like better about the way it turned out was that s4 did not end with Intersections in Real Time as it's season finale. As I've mentioned here before, I didn't like that episode, so I would not have found it a very fitting end to the season.

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An Old Egyptian Blessing: May God stand between you and harm in all the empty places that you must walk.

Thoughts & prayers to soldiers fighting overseas and to their families.

 

[bakana]

From What JMS posted, he only dropped about 4 episodes from his original plan for season 4.

And, he didn't "stretch" the telepath arc in season 5.
I believe the stand alone episodes like "View From the Gallery" and "Day of the Dead" were what was added to make up for what got shifted around.



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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

 

[PsiProne]

Well the telepath arc may not have been stretched, but the extra story coming from S4 would have made for more meatier s5 teep episodes. Not to mention, Ivanova's latent telepathy would have been a breakout while she and Byron made love. Who knows what other meatier Ivanona plots could have added to the telepath arc.

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"You cannot stop someone who's been touched by Vorlons!"
"I tried so hard and got so far, in the end it doesn't even matter."

 

[A_Ranger]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Droshalla:

Would Claudia Christian still have left? Who knows. But if she did and SiL was not filmed early, she would probably not have been in the finale.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

--------------------------------------------
From JMS

On GEnie, 11 April 1992:

A few days ago, I sat down with our line producer, John Copeland, and production designer John Iacovelli, and we were talking about the need to move quickly on some stuff, and how painful the process is to have the whole story in your head, already told, really, and then have to make it all over again so we can put it on film. "You think you've got it bad," I noted, "I've already worked out the last scene in the last episode of the last season (#5)...and I've still got to make Movie #1." They called me on it and asked what that scene was. Just to see their reaction, I told them. They looked at me as if I'd suddenly sprouted three heads and feathers. It was worth it. (Happily, they're sworn to secrecy.) It was also good because I think that, even without filling in the beats in between, it gave them a good sense of where the series was going to go.
--------------------------------------------

He had it all planned out. There's no reason why Ivonova wouldn't have been in the last ep. Just curious, what the hell gave you that idea anyway?


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We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it

 

[Droshalla]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by A_Ranger:
He had it all planned out. There's no reason why Ivonova wouldn't have been in the last ep. Just curious, what the hell gave you that idea anyway? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I know he had it all planned out. As for Ivanava, look at what I wrote. I'll explain it:

If there was definately going to be a s5, there would be no need to film SiL at the end of s4 would there. If everythings confirmed, then you just leave it back to the end of s5 and film IiRT at the end of s4, as was planned. So lets say Claudia Christian still decided she wanted to leave the show for whatever reasons (she may not have done but lets just say she did), then she would not have been in s5. Therefor, when it comes to filming SiL as 522, you can't have Ivanava in it because you haven't got an actor to film the scenes. That leaves you three options:

1) Film the planned scenes with a different actor playing Ivanava (which I would rather be decapitated by a zarg than have to watch)
2) Write some different scenes for the character of Lochley (or whoever might have replaced her)
3) Forget about the Ivanava scenes completely and write around them somehow (thus changing the story)

That is also presuming that no amount of money thrust Christian's way would have persuaded her to come back for 522, and that the team weren't willing to spend a fortune on one actor anyway. (and for the sake or discussion that is what I'm presuming, and as the entire topic never happened, it is all for the sake of discussion).

So that's the reason I'm saying Ivanava wouldn't have been in the last ep (presuming she would still leave, which is what I said in the first place). No actress, no character; that's "what gave me that idea".



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"If it isn't then it's not;
and if it is, well then there you are."

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>He had it all planned out. There's no reason why Ivonova wouldn't have been in the last ep. Just curious, what the hell gave you that idea anyway?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JMS wrote those words in 1992. He didn't have "the whole thing planned out" except in broad outline, because he knew that'd he have to make adjustments for real-world events. That's why he had his famous "trap doors" for various characters.

In 1992 Ivanova didn't exist yet and Sinclair was still the "last commander" of Babylon 5. So there is no way that "SiL" as it finally appeared was "all planned."

He has since said that the "last scene" he mentioned to Netter, et. al. in 1992 was the destruction of the station, which would be foreshadowed throughout the series. So yes, he knew where the series was ultimately going (the hero would acheive his goals, then mysteriously vanish - an echo of the elderly Odysseus' last journey, as well as King Arthur.) But he didn't know the exact path that would lead to the end, and has said so repeatedly over the years.

Re: S4 and S5. JMS said that the first thing he did was pop out all the stand-alone episodes that usually occupy the first five or six episodes of each season. That got him down from 44 episodes needed to 32. Then he collapsed one two- or three-parter into a single episode ("Into the Fire") and moved the bulk of another ("Atonement") into the TV movie In the Beginning, which TNT had just signed for. That's another 6 episodes saved, so he's down to 26. Take out all the late season "C" stories that would have introduced Byron and the Teeps, and "Presto!", you can finish the major arc in 22 shows.

Once the TNT deal was made, some of the stand alones went back into S5, and some threads got moved over to ACtA and Crusade. Then Claudia quit, which required major adjustments to the Teep arc at the last minute. (Badly wounding it, in my view.)

Hard to say about Claudia. She was unhappy about the salary and residual changes that came with the move to basic cable, and she said she was bored with the character and didn't think she had enough to do in S4 or would have enough in S5. (Odd, given that they had already filmed a scene in which she was given command of the station.) So she may have left anyway.

The thing about a hypothetical like this is that you have to decide which variables are going to change. Things would have been different in a scenario where PTEN is doing OK and just renews the show for S5 than in a scenario where TNT picks up the show, but does it before the start of S4. And different yet again if either network renewed the show during S4. The fact that everyone was certain that S4 was it, and that TNT only becamse interested in S5 after "SiL" was produced creates one situation and one set of options. An earlier move by PTEN or TNT would produce different ones.

For instance, if the show had stayed in syndication, the difference in union rules between syndication and basic cable wouldn't have been an issue, and CC may have stayed.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

 

[RW7427]

Well, I do think that season 5 might have more resembled seaons 3 and 4 action-wise if JMS didn't have to cram everything he wanted to do with the show into season 4. I think he was planning to have the Shadow War go longer than the first 6 episodes of season 4, and probably push the EA Civil War into season 5. But since he wasn't sure if there would even be a season 5, he tried to get as much as he could into season 4, shortening some storylines to do it.

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Dulann: You don't solve your problems by hitting them.
David Martel: Yeah, well, it made me feel better.

 

[Kribu]

I think both seasons would have benefitted if the certainty of having a S5 would have been there earlier.

As it is, I must be one of the few people who actually prefer S5 to S4, even though I think the telepath storyline dragged on a bit. But most of it, especially the latter half, was great, unlike the latter half of S4 that almost made me give up B5 on the first viewing.

With all the "important stuff" crammed into S4, I felt that after the first six episodes (which were awesome) it became way too human-centered (the Earth and Mars events) apart from the Minbari civil war, and generally too much action and too little character stuff, especially in the G'Kar/Londo part.

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"Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't live anywhere else." - G'Kar, B5: Rangers
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I think he was planning to have the Shadow War go longer than the first 6 episodes of season 4<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Only by a few episodes. There would have been one of two "calm before the storm" stand-alones, to allow folks just discovering the show to get up to speed before cranking the arc back up. (He did this every season.) Then "Into the Fire" might have been part of a three-part "mini-arc" similar to the "Messages from Earth", "Point of No Return", "Severed Dreams" trilogy from S3 - with "ItF" itself probably a two-parter. But JMS himself has said that it was probably better the way it was filmed. Adding a second part would have just meant more space battles and stalling, not more drama.

But the Shadow War still would have wrapped no more than about 8 or 9 episods into the season, and the rest of it would have gone pretty much the same way as it did, ending with "Intersections in Realtime."

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

 

[A_Ranger]

First off, for some reason I thought Droshalla had said that if CC stayed on for the 5th season she wouldn't have been in SiL. Dont' ask me why I thought that. I guess I shouldn't read stuff so quickly at 2 in the morning.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:


In 1992 Ivanova didn't exist yet and


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, she did. She was goign to be in Corwin's place until they found out Laurel was the psi corp plant (Control/ bureau 13)

JMS did say this, but for the life of me, I couldn't find the quote.



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We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Actually, she did. She was goign to be in Corwin's place<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know that JMS said that Takishima would be replaced after she was exposed as having the artificial personality, and by "a dour Russian woman named Ivanova" at that, but I'm not sure exactly when he added that element to the story. For some reason I have the impression it wasn't until after the pilot was shot, but before the decision to lose Takishima immediately was made. Either that or late in pre-production, but not quite as early as April 1992. I may be mistaken on this point though, because I can't find the relevant messages on JMS News. Anyway, my point was that everything wasn't planned out in detail prior to the start of production, and many elements of the story were in flux. (Which is one reason that Kosh didn't arrive aboard the station with his wife, as originally planned.)

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

 

[BlackStar]

Those assassin Shadows would have cowered in fear if they would tried to attack Kosh with his wife. So you see, everything would have went well for our crew if JMS would have allowed the wife to stay.

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"I don't know why we are here, but I'm pretty sure that it is not in order to enjoy ourselves." -Ludwig Wittgenstein
blackstar@welivefortheone.b5lr.com | BlackStar's Gallery

 

[A_Ranger]

Hehe. Always fear a pissed off woman, Vorlon or not

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We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it

 

[bakana]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Who knows what other meatier Ivanona plots could have added to the telepath arc.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We do. JMS told us that the major point of the planned relatioship between Ivanova & Byron would be Byron's eventual Betrayal of her trust.
That was always Ivanova's fate:
Unlucky in love.

This was foreshadowed all the way back in the first season, when her old boyfriend showed up and tried to Use her as part of his assasination plot against the Ambassadors.

Then, she lost Talia.
Then Marcus.

Byron was going to be the Icing on the cake.

I doubt he latent Telepathy would have had much to do with it. She wasn't strong enough for it to be significant.

Except that Psy Corps would have wanted her to use as "Breeding Stock".

That could have been Byron's betrayal.
Revealing her secret.
JMS never gave us the details.



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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

 

[Chris Springob]

I agree with the first paragraph of Kribu's post. Both S4 and S5 would have been better if the war against Earth would have been spread out into early S5 (regardless of whether CC had been in S5 or not). The Earth Civil War offered a lot of story potential, and spreading it out over more than six episodes would have made it better (IMHO).


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[Jomar]

I didn't know Vorlons had wives

It brings to mind all sorts of strange ideas.

I can't remember all JMS posts but a lot of them are contained in the Lurker's Guide although not always word for word.

I am sure JMS said he had originally wanted to end season 4 with Intersections... which would have been a real cliffhanger. During the original series I taped IiRT and didn't watch it until the last four episodes were shown in the fall. There was a long wait between as I recall.

JMS also said he would have introduced Byron near the end of Season 4 so that would have allowed him to meet Ivanova and perhaps if she had known more about her part in Season 5 she would have stayed. However, I really think the money was the real reason she left.

Also there might not have been a need for Deconstruction of a Falling Star, which I always liked. The EA war would have been carried over into the first four episodes of Season 5 and allowed the Telepath arc to be shortened a bit. Otherwise I think Season 5 would have been pretty much the same.

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I always seem to be diagonally parked in a parallel universe.