Star Trek (SPOILERS)

[GKarsEye]

Well before I get into a super geeky Trek discussion, I just want to clarify my previous post was jokey. I assure you all I lose no sleep over the lack of space Jews.

"Courageous" as Trek was regarding stuff like race and war and the such, they were pretty chickenshit regarding religion.

Oh I think religion was deliberately left out of Trek*, to imply that progress includes the eventual phasing out of religion.

The only cultural/ethnic Jews I can think of in any Trek show would be Worf's adoptive parents.

I don't recall them identifying as Jews.

why are Jews in Space in the 2Xth century always Russians?

Well the only such example I can think of is Ivanova, and the reason she was made Russian Jewish is simply because the writer shares that cultural ancestry.


* Trek = original series Star Trek.

 

[Chilli]

Maybe I'm mixing something up. I remember thinking that Worf's mom was a blatant caricature of the Jewish mom clichee, but I guess it wasn't stated on the show. Though a quick check on google reveals that I wasn't the only person that thought this when watching "Family", hah. Link.

(Right .. TNG had Einstein in space, Einstein was Jewish --> Jews in Space!)

 

[Galahad]

Well before I get into a super geeky Trek discussion, I just want to clarify my previous post was jokey. I assure you all I lose no sleep over the lack of space Jews.

"Courageous" as Trek was regarding stuff like race and war and the such, they were pretty chickenshit regarding religion.

Oh I think religion was deliberately left out of Trek*, to imply that progress includes the eventual phasing out of religion.

You're quite right GKE. Nimoy once stated that he kept the origin for the greeting a little under wraps.

I always assumed that notion to be arrogant presumption on Roddenberry's part. I much prefer JMS's stance on the issue of religion and belief in the future... it's more realistic and sensible.

There was a reference to Christianity in the episode "Bread and Circuses", I have pretty vivid memories of it as a kid.

 

[KoshFan]

Yeah, the "no religion" thing struck me as Roddenberry playing wish-fulfillment. "I think religions are stupid, so I'll just have my rational human heroes be completely non-religious!" B5's take -- where religion causes its share of problems but also gives Delenn, G'Kar, and others such strength -- seemed a lot more realistic.

 

[GKarsEye]

"Wish fulfillment" vs "reality" is the key difference between the outlooks of Trek and B5. Sure, the absence of religion in the world of Trek is ridiculous. So is the absence of war, disease, and poverty.

A further conceit of Trek is that space exploration and social and technological progress can fill the cultural and philosophical space that religion currently holds.

 

[Galahad]

"Wish fulfillment" vs "reality" is the key difference between the outlooks of Trek and B5. Sure, the absence of religion in the world of Trek is ridiculous. So is the absence of war, disease, and poverty.

Sheridan: "Prejudice?"

Julie Musante: "No, we are just one happy planet."

 

[KoshFan]

Actually, exploring the universe would probably fill the religion space for some, but not for everyone, by far -- and heck, not everyone gets to be Captain Kirk.

 

[B5_Obsessed]

Actually, exploring the universe would probably fill the religion space for some, but not for everyone, by far -- and heck, not everyone gets to be Captain Kirk.

I think Trek's absence of religion was more of a result of Roddenberry's apparent atheism (or at least aversion to religion). Several stories depicted "God's" being debunked as merely alien vistors with advanced technology. The only glaring inconsistency was the Jesus reference at the end of "Bread and Circuses", which I'm betting aired and Christmas time and probably came from studio notes.

 

[Galahad]

Actually, exploring the universe would probably fill the religion space for some, but not for everyone, by far -- and heck, not everyone gets to be Captain Kirk.

I think Trek's absence of religion was more of a result of Roddenberry's apparent atheism (or at least aversion to religion). Several stories depicted "God's" being debunked as merely alien vistors with advanced technology. The only glaring inconsistency was the Jesus reference at the end of "Bread and Circuses", which I'm betting aired and Christmas time and probably came from studio notes.

Well I read up on Roddenberry and he was apparently reknowned for claiming credit for many Star Trek epsiodes he didn't actually write himself. He went as far as apologising to the offended parties... but not compensating them.

It's possible given the different perspective, that Bread and Circusses is one of those episodes he wasn't as heavily involved in.

Airdate was March 15th 1968 which puts it outside of the Christian holidays but ironically given the Roman theme... it does fall on the Ides of March.

 

[Sindatur]

Actually, exploring the universe would probably fill the religion space for some, but not for everyone, by far -- and heck, not everyone gets to be Captain Kirk.

I think Trek's absence of religion was more of a result of Roddenberry's apparent atheism (or at least aversion to religion). Several stories depicted "God's" being debunked as merely alien vistors with advanced technology. The only glaring inconsistency was the Jesus reference at the end of "Bread and Circuses", which I'm betting aired and Christmas time and probably came from studio notes.

Well I read up on Roddenberry and he was apparently reknowned for claiming credit for many Star Trek epsiodes he didn't actually write himself. He went as far as apologising to the offended parties... but not compensating them.

It's possible given the different perspective, that Bread and Circusses is one of those episodes he wasn't as heavily involved in.

Airdate was March 15th 1968 which puts it outside of the Christian holidays but ironically given the Roman theme... it does fall on the Ides of March.

And could be the Easter Episode, depending upon where Easter fell that year, and what the airing schedule was

 

[Galahad]

Oooh you cynic! I checked before posting... Easter fell in April that year. It can never fall earlier than March 22nd and will never be as early as that again... until 2285! After Babylon 5 would be decommissioned.

 

[Sindatur]

Oooh you cynic! I checked before posting... Easter fell in April that year. It can never fall earlier than March 22nd and will never be as early as that again... until 2285! After Babylon 5 would be decommissioned.

LOL, it was just a thought. If it had fallen in the March 20-somethings, and they took a couple of weeks off after the episode, it would've worked out

 

[crazyhorse]

I think the rest of the world could use the same argument about Sean Connery attempting to play a non scot.

Sean Connery has done the best Russian submarine commander accent ever

Sean has an accent all of his own

 

[crazyhorse]

As for the blatent racism in having a non Scot play Scotty (what's with that name) again do you not think that an effort could have been made to cast somebody who could actually gi ah wee bit reality tae the man

Does Karl Urban come from the Deep South?

Does Zoe Saldaña come from Cantral Africa?

Spot the fundamental flaw in your argument?

No flaw,I just don't care about them

Obviously it was tongue in cheek.Of course it has been said that Scotty is a negative racial stereotype before although I've never subscribed to that.I think the same was said about Chekov.I do know that Shatner didn't like him because he was better looking

Sure I've posted this before but this it what Scotsmen sound like in space

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khrpy4V0-U4

 

[crazyhorse]

Yeah, the "no religion" thing struck me as Roddenberry playing wish-fulfillment. "I think religions are stupid, so I'll just have my rational human heroes be completely non-religious!" B5's take -- where religion causes its share of problems but also gives Delenn, G'Kar, and others such strength -- seemed a lot more realistic.

I don't know that much about Roddenberry but I don't see why we can't have a sci-fi series that ignores religion.I'm not one to say that it has no place in sci-fi but it doesn't need to be there.

A future world without religion is just a viable and realistic as one without money or even seatbelts for chairs despite people flying out of them every other week :thumbsup:

 

[KoshFan]

Could we have SF without sex? Belief -- if not specifically religion -- is almost as fundamental.

 

[B5_Obsessed]

Roddenberry saw a peaceful Utopian society of the future as one without Poverty, Hunger, Disease and probably Religion. Sadly, it does seem to be one the biggest barriers to world peace at the moment, don't it?

Of course, JMS, although also an athiest, has openly stated that Roddenberry's future was just a wee bit too evolved and for all that would be different in the future, a whole lot would still be the same. As a result Babylon 5 prominently featured P,H,D & R in thought provoking ways.

 

[Galahad]

Roddenberry saw a peaceful Utopian society of the future as one without Poverty, Hunger, Disease and probably Religion. Sadly, it does seem to be one the biggest barriers to world peace at the moment, don't it?

Of course, JMS, although also an athiest, has openly stated that Roddenberry's future was just a wee bit too evolved and for all that would be different in the future, a whole lot would still be the same. As a result Babylon 5 prominently featured P,H,D & R in thought provoking ways.

But I think JMS actually nailed the real problem by highlighting one of our greatest assets... our ability to form communities. In truth, it's also one of our greatest weaknesses too. Why do I say this? Because we have a habit of forming cliques and when something radically different to the normality crafted by our clique enters it's orbit... we eradicate "the problem" using the tools of persecution, evasion or destruction.

It's played out not just in religion, but in the schoolyard, in social circles and steretyping of subcultures... even support of sports teams and TV shows.