Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
(This was originally posted on the Sci-Fi site. Londo's Hair requested that I repost it here, and, since I rarely get requests to "reprint" stuff, I was sufficiently flattered to do it.
I should note that the Rangers critcism was much more vicious - and ill-informed - on that site than the negative opinions expressed here.
I should also note that the post contains a mistake, which I've left in it because this is what I originally wrote. My thanks to "Zahtras_Scorpius" of the Sci-Fi Channel B5 board for reminding me that we did hear the word "Shadows" in S1, and even saw a Shadow vessel, when the ship carrying The Eye was attacked.
But I would argue that we still don't have an inkling that "Shadows" is the name of the creatures behind that black ship, nor the slightest hint that they represent an ancient evil and the counterpart of the Vorlons, things that only really emerge in S2. So I think my main point is still correct, in spite of this lapse of memory.
While I have expressed similar ideas in responses to threads here, I actually think this is a better and more succinct reply to what I regard as some of the sillier criticisms of Rangers)
****************
Congratulations to all of those who fell into JMS's trap and are wasting endless time and bandwidth carping about all the "mistakes" in Rangers
I'm sure he's reading much of this criticism (it is basically all the same on usenet and most of the other B5 sites) and laughing his butt off.
There are two possibilities here:
1) JMS has suddenly been stricken with senility, doesn't remember the continuity of his own series, and screwed up massively.
2) There is more here than meets the eye, and facts that we haven't been given yet.
Naturally at least half the people who watched the movie assume that (1) is true.
They did this with The Gathering (lose the guy with the funny hair!)
They did it with each and every season of B5
They did it with all the TV movies.
They did it with Crusade
You'd think that, at a certain point, people would begin to recognize a pattern: JMS always sets up false expectations and then changes directions.
Watch The Gathering Now tell me where in that movie we see a hint that G'Kar will become a peacemaker and hero, there will be a war with an ancient race called The Shadows or that B5 would break away from Earth and fight a civil war. Four out of the five seasons were dominated by the Shadow war, the Earth Civil War and the aftermath of both. We never even heard the word "Shadows" in S1, which was dominated by the hole in Sinclair's mind and the mystery of the Minbari surrender. (Both of which would have been resolved early in S2, even if Michael O'Hare had remained as commander.)
JMS is a conjurer; he uses misdirection to fool his audience. He's also a mystery writer, and plays fair with that audience, leaving clues in plain sight.
Did anybody notice that the whole resolution of the plot involved doing the same thing twice, but in a different way, and the question of whether or not that could work? Did anybody notice G'Kar's last line, "No one here is exactly what he appears? But then, who is?"
Does everyone bitching about the movie really think that they're so smart that they spotted plot "flaws" that eluded JMS, Doug Netter, all the old B5 hands, and all the folks at Sci-Fi? That nobody spotted any of this between the first story conference in January and the completion of post-production in September? Either you are all real smart, or you think that all the people named are real dumb. Based on their track records, I suspect that they aren't, and that all of the apparent "problems" will be worked out very neatly in the series, if we get it.
I tell you, JMS is chuckling to himself and thinking, "Great. Now I've got them exactly where I want them."
*****************
A number of people have criticized my theory about what is going on in the pilot on the grounds that JMS would have to be pretty stupid to risk confusing and alienating his audience (confusing non-B5 fans, alientating the fans) by doing something like this. I find this interesting inasmuch as these same people, in their own critiques of the film, essentially say that JMS is stupid, since he botched his own series chronology, is diminishing the importance of the achievements of the Army of Light, and doing "something we've already seen before."
I don't see why they should object to my saying, from their perspective, the same thing, if for different reasons.
In fact, I don't think JMS is running much of a risk here. The non-B5 fans aren't going to know about the Shadow War, Thirdspace or other "repeated" elements, so they won't be confused or distracted by them. B5 fans have now had two series to get used to his methods, and should realize that if it looks like he has made a really stupid and elementary mistake in his own universe that odds are it is deliberate, and not what it seems. Here, I'm afraid, he overestimated his fans.
Which isn't to say that he hasn't screwed up the continuity within the series or deliberately written something that contradicts something else when he sees a better way of doing something. He is certainly far from perfect.
But for something this massively contradictory to what's gone before to have "slipped through" is impossible. If JMS didn't realize what he was doing, others in the production team would have caught it. In fact, others did notice this, and commented on it.
I assume that those in the inner circle had already been told what was really going on, back at the script stage. Certainly they would have been let in on it when some of the production people began raising red flags. Those more peripheral to the project who expressed concerns were told, "There's more here than what appears in the pilot script, don't worry about it."
Regards,
Joe
------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
[This message has been edited by Joseph DeMartino (edited January 22, 2002).]
I should also note that the post contains a mistake, which I've left in it because this is what I originally wrote. My thanks to "Zahtras_Scorpius" of the Sci-Fi Channel B5 board for reminding me that we did hear the word "Shadows" in S1, and even saw a Shadow vessel, when the ship carrying The Eye was attacked.
But I would argue that we still don't have an inkling that "Shadows" is the name of the creatures behind that black ship, nor the slightest hint that they represent an ancient evil and the counterpart of the Vorlons, things that only really emerge in S2. So I think my main point is still correct, in spite of this lapse of memory.
While I have expressed similar ideas in responses to threads here, I actually think this is a better and more succinct reply to what I regard as some of the sillier criticisms of Rangers)
****************
Congratulations to all of those who fell into JMS's trap and are wasting endless time and bandwidth carping about all the "mistakes" in Rangers
I'm sure he's reading much of this criticism (it is basically all the same on usenet and most of the other B5 sites) and laughing his butt off.
There are two possibilities here:
1) JMS has suddenly been stricken with senility, doesn't remember the continuity of his own series, and screwed up massively.
2) There is more here than meets the eye, and facts that we haven't been given yet.
Naturally at least half the people who watched the movie assume that (1) is true.
They did this with The Gathering (lose the guy with the funny hair!)
They did it with each and every season of B5
They did it with all the TV movies.
They did it with Crusade
You'd think that, at a certain point, people would begin to recognize a pattern: JMS always sets up false expectations and then changes directions.
Watch The Gathering Now tell me where in that movie we see a hint that G'Kar will become a peacemaker and hero, there will be a war with an ancient race called The Shadows or that B5 would break away from Earth and fight a civil war. Four out of the five seasons were dominated by the Shadow war, the Earth Civil War and the aftermath of both. We never even heard the word "Shadows" in S1, which was dominated by the hole in Sinclair's mind and the mystery of the Minbari surrender. (Both of which would have been resolved early in S2, even if Michael O'Hare had remained as commander.)
JMS is a conjurer; he uses misdirection to fool his audience. He's also a mystery writer, and plays fair with that audience, leaving clues in plain sight.
Did anybody notice that the whole resolution of the plot involved doing the same thing twice, but in a different way, and the question of whether or not that could work? Did anybody notice G'Kar's last line, "No one here is exactly what he appears? But then, who is?"
Does everyone bitching about the movie really think that they're so smart that they spotted plot "flaws" that eluded JMS, Doug Netter, all the old B5 hands, and all the folks at Sci-Fi? That nobody spotted any of this between the first story conference in January and the completion of post-production in September? Either you are all real smart, or you think that all the people named are real dumb. Based on their track records, I suspect that they aren't, and that all of the apparent "problems" will be worked out very neatly in the series, if we get it.
I tell you, JMS is chuckling to himself and thinking, "Great. Now I've got them exactly where I want them."
*****************
A number of people have criticized my theory about what is going on in the pilot on the grounds that JMS would have to be pretty stupid to risk confusing and alienating his audience (confusing non-B5 fans, alientating the fans) by doing something like this. I find this interesting inasmuch as these same people, in their own critiques of the film, essentially say that JMS is stupid, since he botched his own series chronology, is diminishing the importance of the achievements of the Army of Light, and doing "something we've already seen before."
I don't see why they should object to my saying, from their perspective, the same thing, if for different reasons.
In fact, I don't think JMS is running much of a risk here. The non-B5 fans aren't going to know about the Shadow War, Thirdspace or other "repeated" elements, so they won't be confused or distracted by them. B5 fans have now had two series to get used to his methods, and should realize that if it looks like he has made a really stupid and elementary mistake in his own universe that odds are it is deliberate, and not what it seems. Here, I'm afraid, he overestimated his fans.
Which isn't to say that he hasn't screwed up the continuity within the series or deliberately written something that contradicts something else when he sees a better way of doing something. He is certainly far from perfect.
But for something this massively contradictory to what's gone before to have "slipped through" is impossible. If JMS didn't realize what he was doing, others in the production team would have caught it. In fact, others did notice this, and commented on it.
I assume that those in the inner circle had already been told what was really going on, back at the script stage. Certainly they would have been let in on it when some of the production people began raising red flags. Those more peripheral to the project who expressed concerns were told, "There's more here than what appears in the pilot script, don't worry about it."
Regards,
Joe
------------------
Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
[This message has been edited by Joseph DeMartino (edited January 22, 2002).]
