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Talia's Fate?

B

butlerd

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Are there any canon explanations of Talia's fate after she was revealed to be a Psi-Corps sleeper agent? Bester (I believe in "Dust to Dust") makes reference to finding something interesting about her when they "dissected" her but when the station staff start to freak out he backtracks a little bit and says that it was a poor choice of words but the matter is not discussed further. I assume that once she was back in Psi-Corps custody that they did tests on her but the way Bester was, at least initially, referring to her, it almost sounded like she died and they did an autopsy on her. Since we never see or hear anything more about Talia in the series after this, it could really go either way I suppose but has JMS ever given any indication as to what he intended for her post-B5 fate? This has long puzzled me.
 
I was never convinced that Bester was telling the truth about her being dissected, that seemed more like an opportunity to screw with Sheridan and Company, and inform them that they would never know for sure what happened to Talia. If she was dissected, why would he tell them THAT? Better to let them know she was being debriefed, and in the fullness of time, Psi Corps would know everything. That wouldn't anger them, it would scare the hell out of them. I would say that if Bester mentioned Talia's dissection during a negotiation, then it probably never happened. He's not the honest or open type, and he's not sloppy enough to mention it by accident. But he is cruel.

The Control personality was interesting, and I loved the way Andrea Thompson played it. Nasty, mercurial, homicidal, vicious, uncontrollable. I think she left B5 on a high note, in terms of performance, it was rather chilling. Quite a departure from the Talia character, who was so demure and sensitive. The contrast was terrific.

So... am I the only one who read the B5 comics? Issue #8 showed what is presumably the process by which Talia had her Control personality implanted. Sinclair and Garibaldi discover a hidden Psi Corps base on Mars, crawling with people in pressure suits who have no radios (because they're telepaths). A Shadow vessel hovers above them, using its beam weapon to dig one of its brethren out of the ground. Underneath is a large cave which contains a huge organic tech machine inside a glass dome. A conveyor belt is cycling a line of unconscious bodies into it, and one of them is a blond woman with a nametag that says 'T. Winters.' It's a huge operation. No name is given for the machine, which I just think of as the Mars Machine, and no details are given on what it is, or where it came from. With the implication that this machine implanted Control, it may be an industrial scale mind control machine. Shadow tech seems awfully likely.

For those who haven't read it, the storyline from issues #5-8, 'Shadows, Past and Present,' tells how Sinclair and Garibaldi met on Mars, and got in over their heads investigating an anomaly in the desert for EarthForce. Garibaldi briefly mentions this to the ISN reporter in 'Infection,' she doesn't care at all. Funnily, the issue came out shortly before 'Divided Loyalties,' giving away who the traitor was before the episode aired.

So what is the Mars Machine used for? In 'The Quality of Mercy,' Talia explains that telepaths burn out from doing too many mindwipe procedures. It's mentally and emotionally taxing, they don't like to do it, they dread it. And the Corps, of course, would not want its highly trained telepaths burning out, losing useful years as psi operatives and loyal subjects. What if the Shadows were aware of this limitation that human telepaths have, and offered them an alternative? What if this machine is the offer Psi Corps couldn't refuse, a means to not only wipe out criminal personalities that harm society, without wearing out their own telepaths? But it goes a step further, and is capable of implanting hidden 'control' personalities, which would be guaranteed to give total and undying loyalty to the Corps? These sleeper agents could be mass produced by the Mars Machine, creating a hidden fifth column for the inevitable Telepath War. The Shadows may have seen this historical pattern play out elsewhere in the galaxy, wars pitting an intelligent race against its telepath minority. They would be in a position to advise Psi Corps on how to win such a conflict, or steer them into defeat, depending on their own strategy. The Shadows may have gone out of their way to encourage such wars of extermination by any number of alien races over the eons. But in the meantime, Psi Corps has a responsibility to itself and its members to prepare against future threats from the normal population. This machine would be the key weapon the Corps needs to seize control of Earth from the mundanes, and might be worth forging an alliance with the Shadows, who were big fans of payoffs and corruption in general.

The machine looked like a closely-guarded secret of Psi Corps, a prized asset. It is not revealed if there are others, or what happened to this one, though it was gone when Sinclair and Garibaldi went back to search the site in 2253 or so. If anything happened to it, and the flow of new sleeper agents stopped, there would be a time limit on the sleeper agent option. The ones put through the machine would simply die off after a few decades, and the Corps would be back where it started, without its trump card option. Psi Corps was also conducting a wide-ranging program of loyalty tests on EarthForce personnel and others for President Clark during the EA Civil War, giving them access to scan or reprogram anyone they wanted throughout the Earth Alliance while Sheridan's fleet closed in on Earth. It was a one-time opportunity to create the most effective sleeper agent network they could. If the Corps doesn't use 'em, they lose 'em. Self-fulfilling prophecy, time bomb, poison in the ice cube...

But from the one sleeper agent we have seen on-screen, the results may not have been as good as advertised. Talia's alter ego was clearly psychotic, and therefore not the ideal sleeper agent. Too much of a wild card, in a game of intrigue and subtlety. Mistakes made by such an agent could be catastrophic. Irrational pursuit, unnecessary violence, spilled secrets, etc. Psi Corps' deal with the Shadows could backfire in spectacular fashion. Potent but uncontrollable weapons, this is a familiar pattern where the Shadows have been involved. What if the next major destructive legacies of the Shadows are large numbers of Psi Corps sleeper agents and Shadow tech hybrid destroyers?

And for that matter, what might be lurking in the minds of all the mindwipes scattered around the Earth Alliance? Are they all benign servants of society now, or would they have another purpose in a Telepath War?

So no one knows anything more about the Mars Machine than I do, right? If you do, by all means speak up. I can speculate, and from the Psi Corps trilogy, I have a good sense of what the Corps wants and needs. But as with so many of the loose ends in B5, I want to know more.

Raw Shark

"If this thing leaves a waxy, yellow buildup, on anything, I'm coming back here."
Michael Garibaldi
 
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I liked the comics quite a bit.

Talia was never intended to be the "Control" personality. That was a last-minute change that had to be wormed in when she announced she was leaving the show. Exactly whom "Control" was supposed to be is a subject of some debate, but whomever it was wasn't supposed to be revealed that early.

My assumption is that Talia was disected. Why? Because Andrea Thompson demanded to be used more on the show, then announced she was leaving, and was apparently becoming hard to work with as a result of her deterorating marriage to Jerry Doyle. I always got the impression of acrimony in her departure. If that's the case, and if JMS made a point of saying "She was disected," then I take that to mean "The character is dead and will not be returning."

Conversely, he left the door open for O'Hare, and Dr. Kyle, and Julie Caitlin Brown, and even (to a lesser extent) Claudia Christian. The only people JMS made a point of killing off offscreen were actors who'd seriously, seriously pissed him off. Like General Hague and Mary Woronov.
 
I have never read any B5 comics. The only material outside of the B5 show that I have read has been the Centauri Legions of Fire Trilogy (which I loved), so I might have missed some stuff about Talia and the Psi-Corps that you have referenced but it still seems confusing. Since we never see Talia again, the presumption is that she is dead and that Bester is indeed being serious about "dissecting" her. He could very well be messing around with the B5 staff given his nature but knowing the nature of Psi-Corps, maybe not. I love how JMS wrote some things so ambiguously in B5 that it keeps us wondering and guessing about his intentions years and even more than a decade after the show ended.
 
I've just read the Psi Corps trilogy last month and from what I remember Talia was barely featured (if at all?!). There are some great descriptions of how high rated telepaths can dissect the minds of others, and how they visualise each other's minds when they slice chunks off their victim's psyches. Every telepath has their own "mind shape" fingerprint, and these are what is dissected. I'd like to think that this is what happened to Talia, that she was destroyed mentally but not physically.
 
that hadn't occurred to me, that 'disection' might (a) be Bester deliberately screwing with Sheridan etc, or (b) her mind was 'disected'/possibly ID-wiped.

I admit if we take Bester at his word.... well that doesn't get more chilling!! (brrrr)



Out of curiosity, in B5 fandom generally (as a newbie), has the TV producers ever commented on the canonicity of the comics/books etc? Are they generally considered good 'secondary sources' in B5 fandom?
 
I think the comics have been deemed 'somewhat canon' or 'mostly canon,' it's on the Lurker's Guide page someplace. As far as what in them is canon and what is not, you're on your own like the rest of us, no further details given. JMS ran into a weird problem with DC Comics, or at least an editor there, who said that if you're the writer, you can't have full creative control of the story, because that would mess something up in editor-land. I'm not sure how that works. So JMS wrote the outlines for the comics stories, and the first issue of the series, then the first issue of the 'In Valen's Name' miniseries. Of the latter, I absolutely loved the first issue, especially the part where a battered and hopeless Minbari fleet finds Babylon 4 1000 years in the past, that was an amazing B5 moment. The other two issues weren't as good, even though I generally like Peter David's writing. The tone changed from dramatic to action, it was kind of an abrupt shift.

Some of the novels are considered canon, or mostly canon, like 'To Dream in the City of Sorrows' and the trilogies, and 'The Shadow Within.' Those were all good reads for me, as well as #2, 'Accusations.' As far as what folks on here think of them, I really don't know because people either don't comment on them much or haven't read them. Not sure. Granted, they can be hard to find, so that's a factor. I've steadily built my B5 book collection over the years, avoiding some of the novels people don't seem to care for and some of the gaming books.

Raw Shark

"The wheel turns, does it not?"
Ambassador G'Kar
 
thanks for the reply, Raw Shark :) I can just imagine JMS' feelings when told that by the DC Comics editors...!!

it sounds like the comics and books etc contain a lot of good stories, if they're 'mostly canon' as far as the majority of fandom goes then that's good enough for me! Once i finish watching the tv series i will cast about here for ideas of where to look next
 

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