Technomage Trilogy discussion thread

[Alioth]

Sort of like an Episode poll thread, only about the books.

I've so far read the Centauri Trilogy, this trilogy, and "To Dream in the City of Sorrows", in that order, and I think that the Technomage Trilogy was the best written of all of these, and gave some good insights into a lot of key characters, introducing us particularly to Galen (that is, if you hadn't seen any "Crusade" at that point, as was the case for me), an often frustratingly troubled character who I nonetheless could relate to in many ways.

It fell within the time frame of the B5 series from about S1 through the explosive events of "Z'ha'dum" up to the final expulsion of the First Ones, but presented many of the key events and characters therein from a totally different perspective. We saw an awful lot more of what was going on out on the rim, in some details that could summon nightmares. We also got some new perspective on Kosh, what he was trying to accomplish, and how he differed from the other Vorlons, seeing more hope for the younger races than the others. Including the hope of a good order being created out of the chaos that was inherent to the Technomages.

And of course, it helps answer some of the improbabilities of the events that transpired with Sheridan's visit to Z'Ha'Dum.

Share your thoughts, and rate the books in the poll.

 

[Alioth]

One thing I wondered, is if Bunny was supposed to be Talia after her cover was blown. Her physical description in the book seemed to hint it could be. She was a P-12 though, and I don't remember what rating Talia was supposed to be (or if it was a lower rating than the "real" unprogrammed Talia, somehow) but I think it was lower than Bester's (who was also a P-12 I think). And the time she first appeared in the trilogy seemed to be a bit earlier than when Talia was uncovered in B5 (toward the end of season 2 IIRC?). I'd have to reread that part and check that again though. Plus, Bester had (sort of) said she was "dissected" by the Psi Corps--that may have been a lie to get a rise out of Garibaldi though. That was in "Ship of Tears", which was well before her last appearance in the trilogy when she was supposedly hooked to a Shadow vessel herself (which was right before the events of "Z'ha'Dum").

My guess is they were different people altogether, but the description made it sound like it could have been her.

Another thing about the trilogy, is that it suggested the Shadows didn't know about the significance of Anna Sheridan until being informed by Bunny (who supposedly got that info from scanning Galen after he'd "merged" with Anna briefly--of course if Bunny were Talia she'd have known before that). But Morden had met with John Sheridan before that ("The Shadow of Z'ha'dum"), and I'm pretty sure Sheridan angrily showed Morden a picture of her at some point in the confrontation, but I'd have to check again to see if her name was also mentioned. But even without that, Morden knew from that confrontation that Sheridan's wife was among those on the Icarus, and so you'd think the Shadows would have found where they'd put her and "repurposed" her sooner. The time between the Morden-Sheridan confrontation (I think mid-season 2) and Z-day was well over a year, something which bothered me a little, although it thankfully gave John the time to get over her more completely so he wouldn't be as vulnerable to her reappearance.

 

[KoshN]

I'd also rate the Centauri trilogy an 'A.' The Psi Corps trilogy, a B- or C+.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

I thought the technomage trilogy was the most consistent of the bunch. J. Gregory Keys' Telepath trilogy started out stronger, and I think he's a better writer, but kinda' fizzled at the end.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

One thing I wondered, is if Bunny was supposed to be Talia after her cover was blown. Her physical description in the book seemed to hint it could be. She was a P-12 though, and I don't remember what rating Talia was supposed to be (or if it was a lower rating than the "real" unprogrammed Talia, somehow) but I think it was lower than Bester's (who was also a P-12 I think). And the time she first appeared in the trilogy seemed to be a bit earlier than when Talia was uncovered in B5 (toward the end of season 2 IIRC?). I'd have to reread that part and check that again though. Plus, Bester had (sort of) said she was "dissected" by the Psi Corps--that may have been a lie to get a rise out of Garibaldi though. That was in "Ship of Tears", which was well before her last appearance in the trilogy when she was supposedly hooked to a Shadow vessel herself (which was right before the events of "Z'ha'Dum").

My guess is they were different people altogether, but the description made it sound like it could have been her.

Another thing about the trilogy, is that it suggested the Shadows didn't know about the significance of Anna Sheridan until being informed by Bunny (who supposedly got that info from scanning Galen after he'd "merged" with Anna briefly--of course if Bunny were Talia she'd have known before that). But Morden had met with John Sheridan before that ("The Shadow of Z'ha'dum"), and I'm pretty sure Sheridan angrily showed Morden a picture of her at some point in the confrontation, but I'd have to check again to see if her name was also mentioned. But even without that, Morden knew from that confrontation that Sheridan's wife was among those on the Icarus, and so you'd think the Shadows would have found where they'd put her and "repurposed" her sooner. The time between the Morden-Sheridan confrontation (I think mid-season 2) and Z-day was well over a year, something which bothered me a little, although it thankfully gave John the time to get over her more completely so he wouldn't be as vulnerable to her reappearance.

Talia started out as a P5 and ended up as a P-off_the_scale. She was an adult and had worked as a commercial telepath for at least a decade before arriving on Babylon 5.
Bunny had a P12 rating but was a naive girl. They are different females.

Having been away from Earth for several years Morden may not have known the importance of Captain Sheridan.

 

[RW7427]

I loved the technomage trilogy. It's been quite a while since I read it, so I don't remember everything that goes on in it. But I do remember getting to read a lot about Galen, and it was nice to get more of a glimpse into his character than what B5 or Crusade provided.

 

[Mentallooser]

I absolutely love B5. I even liked Crusade quite a bit though it didn't have enough time to develop to get the same sort of following from me that B5 did. The Technomage Trilogy is easily my favorite thing from the B5 universe though. The story is fun, Galen's character evolution is great, and watching some of the smaller things that are going on during these B5 episodes is a treat. Where these books really won me over was the insight into the minds of the first ones. That was always my favorite part of the show, and learning more about their history did me wonders.

 

[deaded]

I loved these books. I think of myself as critical but I still rate these among my favorite books and I give them 10/10. I read them twice. My son and I are now watching B5, first time for him (age 13), and we are near the beginning of season 5 (just watched Strange Relations). He loves it. He's very into reading now and I've promised him these books but first we need to finish season 5, watch the B5 movies, and then Crusade.

Galen is one of my favorite characters in the B5 universe and he is the main reason I miss Crusade. I've never been into fantasy that much, I'm pretty much a hard sci-fi guy, but this techno mage thing really caught me and opened up some doors (I still don't like fantasy but I'm not as critical anymore. Embarrassingly, Jonn Ringo's stuff has been lots of fun to read).

I wish I could find the B5 books in some kind of eBook format because he likes to do all his reading on the iPad, but I can't so he may have to resort to dead trees. I'm glad I kept the books. I might read them again myself. It's been 10 years or so.

 

[Alioth]

One thing I didn't like in the trilogy--the implication that Morden was coerced to work for the Shadows because they were holding the prospect of recovering his wife and family (disappeared in some starship accident) over his head. In the show, he certainly acts like he enjoys his work very much, and believes very much in it and in the ideals of the Shadows--and is in fact a natural at the work he's doing, a glib, manipulative, and charismatic salesman/dealmaker who's probably done similar things before he ever met the Shadows (although he was an archaeologist, I guess, but he certainly had those kind of interpersonal skills). Even when we see him come back from the grave in "Day of the Dead", we see no kind of remorse or regret, as one would probably have if there was coercion--he still plays the same kind of mind games with Lennier, because, well, he can.

No, I always figured that in the Icarus crew of 100 or however many people, there would be at least one who, when presented with the choice of serving a powerful race in exchange for the potential personal power they'd reward him with in their ascension, would do so. Morden came across very much like a sociopath (and I've known a few of these in my life), which statistics suggest we would find 3 or 4 of out of 100. Not to mention that, sociopath or not, the ideology of the Shadows and what they supposedly wanted to do for Humans would appeal to some people as well--Justin was probably a sincere believer anyway, while Morden was probably more an opportunist than anything who didn't seem to need his arm twisted, but could go along with the philosophy too because his type could thrive in that framework.

Trying to sugarcoat Morden didn't seem at all necessary, and didn't reflect the character we saw in the show. Others here agree? I mean, if we want, we can still pity him as a sociopath, because sociopaths don't have the emotional and spiritual capacity to experience the wonders of love or giving or true friendship, and often--as Morden did--die alone and hated.

 

[vacantlook]

I agree re: Morden. In the show, he most definitely is a smarmy ass that likes what he's doing. Giving him a sympathetic reason for doing what he does not match up to his attitude on the show while doing it.

 

[Alioth]

Where these books really won me over was the insight into the minds of the first ones.

Oh yes, very much so.

Having been away from Earth for several years Morden may not have known the importance of Captain Sheridan.

At that point, he'd already had some pretty high-level dealings with Earth (with Vice-President-turned-President Clark of course, and I'm sure he made his rounds among other powerful people there at that time, as seems to be the way he operated). And I'm pretty sure his masters understood that Babylon 5 was a lynchpin in galactic affairs, and that control of it was critical to their war effort--so if they could turn its commander, their hegemony over Humans would be complete and galactic diplomacy would be much more under their influence. As Justin said, Sheridan was a "nexus"--and I don't think they just discovered that recently before Z-Day. And Morden I'm sure was perceptive enough to realize that the wife of Sheridan could be a very useful tool for turning Sheridan to the Shadows--we see in the show and even moreso in the Technomage Trilogy that a common MO for getting converts to the Shadow cause is to gain some sort of personal leverage like this. We see in the Trilogy that he'd already been doing a lot of this before, and showing interest in people far less significant or "useful" than the commander of Babylon 5.

Edit: then again, at that point it wasn't clear that Sheridan had the potential to rebel against Earth itself--i.e. they still maybe assumed that he'd loyally do what his government told him to and obey the chain of command, so if they controlled Earth's government, they'd control him too. I guess part of his being a "nexus" was that it turned out he was capable of going against his government and had the resources and support of his people to do so successfully. That was not clear at that point. But still, I'd think that they'd always be looking for levers on whoever had any significant kind of power, and Sheridan was still pretty high up in the scheme of things, and could still have facilitated a lot of things for the Shadows with the capabilities he had and with the station he commanded.

 

[deaded]

I agree with your feelings Alioth. I too have known and dealt with a number of sociopaths (now called 'antisocial personality disorder'). I want to put Morden in that category and I think Ed Wasser did a great job with him. I did not like him being humanized. However, take a look an Anna Sheridan. She was pretty manipulative as well and it does not seem like she was previously a manipulator. Sheridan certainly knew she was not 'his' Anna. I think their personalities were replaced rather than augmented. I know that those who resisted were supposedly killed and some agreed to serve, but Anna did not appear to be the type to serve. They had no use for her until they discovered her importance and then they turned her into a very effective puppet.

No, I want to believe Morden was always a dick, but he might not have been.

 

[vacantlook]

Anna became warped though as a result of being made into a CPU for one of the Shadow ships; it makes more sense for her to be vastly different before and after. Morden didn't exactly have a before and after experience like that, unless I'm not remembering the book well enough.

 

[Sindatur]

Anna became warped though as a result of being made into a CPU for one of the Shadow ships; it makes more sense for her to be vastly different before and after. Morden didn't exactly have a before and after experience like that, unless I'm not remembering the book well enough.

I agree, what we know about Morden, leads me to believe he always had the "Salesman" quality to his personality, and he cooperated willingly (I believe they had the threat of a relative/wife over his head)

 

[deaded]

I agree, what we know about Morden, leads me to believe he always had the "Salesman" quality to his personality, and he cooperated willingly (I believe they had the threat of a relative/wife over his head)

You are probably right. Where do we find out more about him? There was a book that portrayed him just before/at the time of the Icarus. And Anna as a Shadow vessel. What was that novel?

 

[KoshN]

I agree, what we know about Morden, leads me to believe he always had the "Salesman" quality to his personality, and he cooperated willingly (I believe they had the threat of a relative/wife over his head)

You are probably right. Where do we find out more about him? There was a book that portrayed him just before/at the time of the Icarus. And Anna as a Shadow vessel. What was that novel?

The Shadow Within.

 

[Alioth]

One tangent on Morden (not related to the Trilogy per se), and his role vis a vis the Shadows (and the nature of individual Shadows themselves): With the Shadows that accompany him, it seems like he's actually leading them, that they are very deferential to his judgment in situations. There's the scene after Londo tells Morden off and breaks off his relationship with him (temporarily, before he hooks Londo again with the death of Adira), where they ask if they should kill him, and he says, "no, we still need him" or somesuch. And another scene, earlier on, where he answers them "no, he (Londo) doesn't suspect a thing". Minor things, perhaps--the Shadows may be far enough removed from the thinking of the younger races that they respect his "closer" insights into their nature and in dealings with them.

Or, could it be that individual Shadows aren't as savvy as they are collectively as a whole? In that vein I also wondered about why a simple PPG blast was able to kill them (or take them out of commission somehow), as happened both at the hands of Sheridan on Z'Ha'Dum, and Londo's guards in his court when he confronts Morden the final time. But this seems strange in light of the fact they can effectively fight mano-a-mano with the Vorlons (although we know, via the Trilogy, that in the second confrontation, when Kosh was killed, Kosh pretty much let them kill him so they wouldn't go after other Vorlons for the decision he made alone). But still, it would seem that, even though they rely a lot on invisibility for defense (in just about everything they do), a race such as this with its impressive bioengineering skills would still have its individuals vulnerable to a simple PPG blast. Unless their individuals weren't near as valuable to them--unlike the Vorlons, where the death of one may have catalyzed their great wrath in S4 (along with the convenient "open door" Sheridan left them with his destruction of the Shadows' seat of power).

 

[Sindatur]

One tangent on Morden (not related to the Trilogy per se), and his role vis a vis the Shadows (and the nature of individual Shadows themselves): With the Shadows that accompany him, it seems like he's actually leading them, that they are very deferential to his judgment in situations. There's the scene after Londo tells Morden off and breaks off his relationship with him (temporarily, before he hooks Londo again with the death of Adira), where they ask if they should kill him, and he says, "no, we still need him" or somesuch. And another scene, earlier on, where he answers them "no, he (Londo) doesn't suspect a thing". Minor things, perhaps--the Shadows may be far enough removed from the thinking of the younger races that they respect his "closer" insights into their nature and in dealings with them.

Or, could it be that individual Shadows aren't as savvy as they are collectively as a whole? In that vein I also wondered about why a simple PPG blast was able to kill them (or take them out of commission somehow), as happened both at the hands of Sheridan on Z'Ha'Dum, and Londo's guards in his court when he confronts Morden the final time. But this seems strange in light of the fact they can effectively fight mano-a-mano with the Vorlons (although we know, via the Trilogy, that in the second confrontation, when Kosh was killed, Kosh pretty much let them kill him so they wouldn't go after other Vorlons for the decision he made alone). But still, it would seem that, even though they rely a lot on invisibility for defense (in just about everything they do), a race such as this with its impressive bioengineering skills would still have its individuals vulnerable to a simple PPG blast. Unless their individuals weren't near as valuable to them--unlike the Vorlons, where the death of one may have catalyzed their great wrath in S4 (along with the convenient "open door" Sheridan left them with his destruction of the Shadows' seat of power).

Morden's relationship with his Shadows, seemed to be kind of equalized, he feared them, and was responsible for accomplishing their Goals, but, it seems he was free to dictate the execution of his plans

Regarding their vulnerability, it took 3(?) Shadows, firing like madmen to take out a resigned to die Vorlon, so, yeah, I don't think the Shadows compared individually any better to Vorlons, because like you say, they were pretty easy to take out. I wonder though, if they also phase out of dimension, as well as out of light (invisibility). Perhaps, they go half way with invisibility generally, and if they go on alert, they phase out the rest of the way dimensionally?

 

[KoshN]

Regarding their vulnerability, it took 3(?) Shadows, firing like madmen to take out a resigned to die Vorlon, ....

"Firing like madmen" ? That wasn't how I interpreted that scene. IMHO, Morden watched while the three Shadows engaged Kosh in, for lack of a better description, "hand-to-hand" combat. What you think was firing (presumably of weapons, unless you meant like Kosh did at John Sheridan, or like Ulkesh did at Lyta), I think it was contact energy discharges between energy beings, similar to when Ulkesh attacked Garibaldi's Security forces.

 

[Sindatur]

Regarding their vulnerability, it took 3(?) Shadows, firing like madmen to take out a resigned to die Vorlon, ....

"Firing like madmen" ? That wasn't how I interpreted that scene. IMHO, Morden watched while the three Shadows engaged Kosh in, for lack of a better description, "hand-to-hand" combat. What you think was firing (presumably of weapons, unless you meant like Kosh did at John Sheridan, or like Ulkesh did at Lyta), I think it was contact energy discharges between energy beings, similar to when Ulkesh attacked Garibaldi's Security forces.

OK, discharging energy, if you prefer. But, there was alot of it going on, so, it wasn't an easy thing for the 3 Shadows to take Kosh down