technomages trilogy and b5 question -SPOILERS-

[A_M_Swallow]

Re: KoshN

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Unfortunately they either forgot to tell her how to defend... or the thing which attacked was not really the Eye. I doubt if they could tell her how to defend against telepathic attack by a Shadow.

Given that whatever overtook both Lyta and everyone else onboard exhibited lack of attention, failing to learn about the ships' preprogrammed return jump, I would deem it more likely that this was an individual being, rather than many beings.



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I suspect that Lyta could defend against the Eye but what she could not do was both deep scan and defend. In order to get to get the extra reception required, the reduced sensitivity due to the mental blocks has to be removed. Kosh getting into P5 Lyta’s mind in “The Gathering” foreshadows this.

 

[KoshN]

Re: KoshN

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<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by B5_Obsessed: </font color>
Excellent breakdown and analysis, Kosh.


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Thanks.



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<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by B5_Obsessed: </font color>
The general consensus is that the Shadows were able to rig something up as a stopgap measure for their own security - possibly controlled by a Shadow itself (hence the image and sounds of a Shadow seen in space over Z'ha'Dum). However, the Eye was probably nowhere near as efficient or effective as it had been prior to the death of Wierden. It is stated in the book that The Eye had waited a thousand years for a new inhabitant with an exceedingly orderly mind. Galen was that replacement, so filling that position after his escape would not have been easy. I don't even know if a Shadow - a being of Chaos - could run the machine if it wanted to, but that's another bit of speculative discussion. In any case, I would guess that the effective "reach" of the Eye was probably reduced from controlling and monitoring all Shadow activity in the galaxy to simply protecting Z'Ha'Dum and its airspace for that period of transition.

It still leaves me to wonder who finally replaced Wierden.
Could it have been Bunny?....

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I think if a Shadow was in The Eye, it would be even more powerful. A Shadow would be more than capable of running The Eye. Perhaps that's part of why Lyta was taken over. As to the appearance of The Eye as a Shadow Head (eye pattern), that could have been that way even when Weirden was operating The Eye. It's not necessarily a projection of the appearance of the operator, but rather a projection of the beings whose philosophy it's putting forward. As to Bunny being in The Eye, I doubt it. Didn't Galen leave her in the care of Lorien? I doubt that the Shadows would go against Lorien, and take Bunny. One of The Shadows probably operated The Eye, temporarily, since they wouldn't put one of their own into it for long. The Shadows would consider themselves above that duty.



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<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by Loadhan: </font color>
the Shadows wanted to spread Chaos but were quite orderly themselves - which we do see in the series somewhat. They wanted their "followers" to be the perfect little soldiers - not going off and doing their own chaotic thing. Much of the Shadows ways are "control" and having others do what the Shadows want - which is closer to order than chaos. It seems they wanted to spread disorder throughout those who were not with them, but wanted a strict ruling thumb ... er, mandible ... of those races under their control.


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Exactly.


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<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by Lennier: </font color>
Z'ha'dum must have possessed weapons. Given that this was the place where the Shadows gathered, the place where the Eye resided, it must have possessed quite capable weapons, aside from the Eye itself.

Such weapons would have easily destroyed an incoming White Star. By all expectations, they should have been capable of destroying a thousand Vorlon cruisers.

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A thousand Vorlon cruisers? Naah! You're getting carried away, delusions of Shadow grandeur, etc. One Vorlon PK, and Blammo! Bye Bye Big Z. Neither side was going to attack the other side's homeworld, because of the inevitable PK counterattack. Both sides were probably capable of easily destroying the other's homeworld with their PKs. Remember, it took First One ships to stop the Vorlon PK, not Shadow Battlecrabs.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Re: KoshN

A planet cannot easily defend against planetkillers.

Such weapons would be designed to attack planets. If defense against such weapons is needed, that defense must occur at distance, probably involving planetkillers (or worse weapons) engaging each other.

However, a planet housing relatively important structures (and serving as gathering place) should be well defended against minor annoyances. For beings like Shadows and Vorlons, cruisers count as minor annoyances. Toys designed to be compatible with toys of younger races.

Expecting the location of the Eye to defend against 1000 cruisers seems reasonable. Just like nobody would dream of attacking the Vorlon homeworld with 1000 battlecrabs. Such places need qualitatively different approach.

 

[KoshN]

Re: KoshN

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<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by Lennier: </font color>
For beings like the Shadows and Vorlons, cruisers count as minor annoyances.


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That is true of the biggest & baddest ships of the younger races. However, Shadow battlecrabs (especially the big ones) would not be minor annoyances to the Vorlons, and Vorlon cruisers would not be minor annoyances to the Shadows.



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<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by Lennier: </font color>
Toys designed to be compatible with the toys of younger races.


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You probably meant comparable, right? Vorlon cruisers and transports, and Shadow battlecrabs (of all sizes) were not on a par with even the largest ships of the younger races.



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<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by Lennier: </font color>
Expecting the location of the Eye to defend against 1000 cruisers seems reasonable.


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The Eye could not have defended against 1000 Vorlon cruisers, or even 1000 Vorlon transports. However, because the Shadows had all their stuff underground, using the shielding of the planet, the Vorlons would have needed a PK to destroy Z'Ha'Dum, or a few motherships to do significant damage. The shadows could probably have done some significant damage to the Vorlon homeworld with the biggest battlecrabs IF they could get past Vorlon telepathic defenses and any cruisers and motherships on station (which is rather unlikely).



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<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by Lennier: </font color>
Just like nobody would dream of attacking the Vorlon homeworld with 1000 battlecrabs. Such places need qualitatively different approach.

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Not because it couldn't be done (successfully carried out), but rather because the other side would do the same thing in retaliation.

 

[Loadhan]

Re: KoshN

I always pictured it like the Cold War last century. Both the USA and USSR could completely wipe out the other (and much / most / all of the rest of the world along with them) but did not for the main that if they tried it, the other would too. The Vorlons and the Shadows were probably pretty much treating each other the same way.

Now, why did Sheriden's bombing of Z'ha'dum (especially when an "Agent of Choas" helped) "open an unexpected door" that made the Vorlons "do what we must"? Why did they feel it was okay to bring out the PKers? Or were they going there anyway since they already broken the rule and attacked openly a few months prior ... to answer my own question with something I thought of as I write this, maybe it was because the Shadows had started using other planets as bases again and the Vorlons decided to end it all before it could begin. Sheriden forced the Shadows to move forces elsewhere; the Vorlons respond ...

 

[KoshN]

Re: KoshN

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<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by Loadhan: </font color>
Now, why did Sheriden's bombing of Z'ha'dum (especially when an "Agent of Choas" helped) "open an unexpected door" that made the Vorlons "do what we must"? Why did they feel it was okay to bring out the PKers?

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<font color="yellow">Spoilers for Invoking Darkness:</font color>
<font class="small">Spoiler:</font>
<table bgcolor="#000000" cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2" border="0"><tr bgcolor="#000000"><td bgcolor="#000000" id="spoiler"><font color="#000000">It made some of the Vorlons think that the war could be won, between them and The Shadows. Some of the Vorlons were hardliners who wanted to take the opportunity after Sheridan bombed Z'ha'dum, to destroy the Shadows completely. This is explained in "Invoking Darkness." You may think that the Vorlons indirectly attacked Z'ha'dum by allowing Galen through, but Galen's mission was only to kill three people (Elizar, Razel and Morden), not destroy Z'ha'dum.
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Note that the Vorlons were still not attacking Z'ha'dum, and the Shadows were not attacking the Vorlon homeworld. Both sides were attacking worlds where the other side had influence, to wipe out that influence. It was only when Sheridan brought them together in "Into the Fire," that they attacked each other directly.

IMO, the "unexpected door" was a combination of the Vorlons breaking the rules of engagement (through Kosh Naranek, at Sheridan's request) in "Interludes and Examinations," and Sheridan bombing Z'ha'dum in "Z'ha'dum."