Telepath War

[Republibot 3.0]

From JMS: http://jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-6177

I do recall there being some bitterness on Pat's part as written in the Andy Lane book. But if my memory serves, it might well have had something to do with her then-husband Jeffrey Willerth having been fired from the show. Grudges anybody?

Jan

Why was he fired?

 

[Jan]

Hadn't heard that one, but it works. A bit odd that she wouldn't do it for old times sake, but, hey, everyone makes bum decisions.

I don't know all the ins and outs of it but as a professional actor, my understanding is that if you work for less than you have before, that effectively lowers your 'quote' or the amount you can ask for. Unless you're very well established, I hear it's a bad idea to work for less, regardless of sentiment. There's a lot of detail about that sort of thing in Pat's memoir.

Of course it did. We seldom had the entire cast on the show at the same time ever. There was more of that in S5, though. But aren't principle cast actors salaried? I mean, don't they get paid whether they're in an episode or not?

Yes and no. They're usually contracted for X number of episodes per season and that amount is pro-rated into a salary. If they don't work X number of episodes, they still get paid for them. But not all actors in the opening credits (a good measure of principal actors) are even contracted for a guaranteed number of episodes. I recall JMS saying that for the first two seasons Andreas and Peter weren't given guarantees.

Jan, you've got to calm down. I asked a question in a humorous fashion, that's all. I asked because I don't know. That's why people ask questions: Because they don't know. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, and I'm happy you know more than I do. That's why I asked the question: So I could know more than I did. And now I do. So thank you, and please calm down.

Apologies. I'm obviously not used to your style of asking questions. "Also, I'm not buying for a minute that the original plan called for him to die in the Telepatth War" seemed more of a declaration.

He couldn't. She'd already filmed "Sleeping in Light."

Sure he could. He didn't lock the episode and turn it in until the fifth season. He was even asked about changing Lochley for Ivanova but said he'd decided to leave it since it was the way he'd always envisioned it. He also didn't kill her off in the short story starring Ivanova written after the show ended.

Why was he fired?

I really don't recall. There may be more info in the Andy Lane book but I despised that second one and don't have it any longer.

Jan

 

[Springer]

Why was he fired?

I really don't recall. There may be more info in the Andy Lane book but I despised that second one and don't have it any longer.

Jan

That entire second volume of Andy Lane's was full of bitterness. Awful book. Such a shame after the first volume was so good.

If I remember it right (I can check tonight when I get home) she wasn't complaining that Willerth got fired – as well as playing Kosh he also assisted the producers. When he caught one of the cast snooping around trying to find any info about the future of their character he reported them and he caught some flak as a result. I don't think he got fired did he?

 

[Jan]

That entire second volume of Andy Lane's was full of bitterness. Awful book. Such a shame after the first volume was so good.

I agree. Obviously the story wasn't told the way he wanted it to go so as far as he was concerned, it was all bad. It's that sort of thing that gives unauthorized books a bad reputation.

If I remember it right (I can check tonight when I get home) she wasn't complaining that Willerth got fired – as well as playing Kosh he also assisted the producers. When he caught one of the cast snooping around trying to find any info about the future of their character he reported them and he caught some flak as a result. I don't think he got fired did he?

I do remember that part in the fifth season but I don't think that had anything to do with his leaving. And he may not have been fired, as in he did anything wrong, he may just have been let go for business reasons. I'm not sure if he transitioned over to Crusade? If you find out, I'll be interested to hear. Given that I couldn't check on my own, I probably shouldn't have mentioned it at all.

Jan

 

[Springer]

Okay, so I have Andy Lane's offending book in front of me. To stay on topic I'll start with what Pat writes about her aborted Crusade appearance. She says that originally she was out of town when it was scheduled to shoot so couldn't do it; JMS had called her to ask her to change her mind, saying it was two or three great scenes. While she is away she hears from a friend who had been in a meeting with JMS who had apparently said "fine, we'll recast her". When she gets home she gets another call from the production offices asking if she would be available on a different date. But then she's told that the money will be a sixth of what it was on B5 (which pretty much tallies with JMS' explanation that Jan linked to earlier). She turns it down and gets an increased offer of half of what she'd been paid on B5. She says her self-respect couldn't accept that so she turned that down too stating that it was "just business".

Now, Pat wrote the afterword to this book; I'd forgotten that Jeffrey Willerth wrote a foreword. He says he stayed with Babylonian Productions through to the first two episodes of Crusade. He doesn't say why he left, only that it wasn't on the best of circumstances. He complains that the actors had no information from the producers about whether they would return in the TV movies or Crusade and that they were all getting frustrated and angry because of it and finding stuff out on the internet before being told on the set, and he implies the producers were not caring about the crew, and that they 'wrangled' a new deal out of the union during the season three strike, which doesn't tally with other perspectives on that deal. Even Pat criticizes the producers saying that they would "have the cast feel disposable and replaceable" when in the next breath she praises JMS saying she'd never seen a producer/creator with such loyalty to the whole team and that the DS9 actors were astounded when they found out B5 actors could just walk into the producer's office for a conversation. So it's all very contradictory and I'm wondering whether it was edited a certain way to make it all sound more bitter than it really is.

Okay, that's dragged us off-topic. Hopefully though it can put to bed the idea that Lyta was killed off because Pat fell out with JMS.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

I don't know all the ins and outs of it but as a professional actor, my understanding is that if you work for less than you have before, that effectively lowers your 'quote' or the amount you can ask for. Unless you're very well established, I hear it's a bad idea to work for less, regardless of sentiment. There's a lot of detail about that sort of thing in Pat's memoir.

Ok, that makes sense. Particularly given that she's primarily known as a stuntwoman, and was trying to break into the larger acting scene in her 40s, after the end of her only steady acting gig. Probably a bad time to settle for less.

Yes and no. They're usually contracted for X number of episodes per season and that amount is pro-rated into a salary. If they don't work X number of episodes, they still get paid for them. But not all actors in the opening credits (a good measure of principal actors) are even contracted for a guaranteed number of episodes. I recall JMS saying that for the first two seasons Andreas and Peter weren't given guarantees.

I think JMS said 7 episodes/season minimum to be part of the principle cast, though most did considerably more. That fits with his general sixes-and-sevens pattern when B5 was on.

Apologies. I'm obviously not used to your style of asking questions. "Also, I'm not buying for a minute that the original plan called for him to die in the Telepatth War" seemed more of a declaration.

Not needed. I'm obviously not used to reining it in when I'm in polite company. Sorry.

The "I'm not believing it for a minute" thing IS a declaration, though. I honestly don't believe for a minute that that was his 'original' destiny. That doesn't mean that JMS was pissed at him, though. There were a lot of 'original plans' that were set up and never made it to fruition. I see two threads that probably would have come to fruition in the David Sheridan incident that are probably worthy of their own thread, so I'll go start one. Suffice to say, I think Lennier was part of that, and it got dropped for whatever reason.

Sure he could. He didn't lock the episode and turn it in until the fifth season. He was even asked about changing Lochley for Ivanova but said he'd decided to leave it since it was the way he'd always envisioned it. He also didn't kill her off in the short story starring Ivanova written after the show ended.

Well, the short story was a fan thing. He put it to a vote: who do you want a story about, and they said "Ivonova." Clearly he couldn't kill her off there. As to SiL, I don't think it's realistic to re-shoot all or part of the episode, particularly on their short schedule and tight budget. They may have talked about it (I'd be surprised if they didn't, really) but it probably wasn't a viable option.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

That entire second volume of Andy Lane's was full of bitterness. Awful book. Such a shame after the first volume was so good.

If I remember it right (I can check tonight when I get home) she wasn't complaining that Willerth got fired – as well as playing Kosh he also assisted the producers. When he caught one of the cast snooping around trying to find any info about the future of their character he reported them and he caught some flak as a result. I don't think he got fired did he?

Wow. Oddly, I don't remember much about the 2nd book. I drove myself crazy trying to find a copy (I discovered the first one long after both were out of print about 10 years ago), read it, and I have next-to-no recolection of it.

I do remember being disappointed, mostly at its brevity and lack of insight. I don't remember any bile, but given that part of the charm of the first book was its 'warts and all' style, it wouldn't surprise me if he was just pissed off at the bad 5th season, and cranked the thing out with as little effort as possible to fulfil a contract.

TOPIC DRIFT: the B5 season-by-season books: I read the first two and adored them 'cuz of their obvioius love of B5, but their willingness to call a turd a turd when need be. It was like it was written by a fan who recognizes the shortcomings of their favorite thing, but loves it anyway. Honest. Then, from three on they were far more...sterile? I guess that's the best way to put it. Not a negative word in 'em. I was actually doubtful they were written by the same author for a little while, but, yeah, they were.

Anyone know anything about the tonal shift there?

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Okay, so I have Andy Lane's offending book in front of me. To stay on topic I'll start with what Pat writes about her aborted Crusade appearance. She says that originally she was out of town when it was scheduled to shoot so couldn't do it; JMS had called her to ask her to change her mind, saying it was two or three great scenes. While she is away she hears from a friend who had been in a meeting with JMS who had apparently said "fine, we'll recast her". When she gets home she gets another call from the production offices asking if she would be available on a different date. But then she's told that the money will be a sixth of what it was on B5 (which pretty much tallies with JMS' explanation that Jan linked to earlier). She turns it down and gets an increased offer of half of what she'd been paid on B5. She says her self-respect couldn't accept that so she turned that down too stating that it was "just business".

Entirely believable. I can accept all that. Issue resolved. Thank you for looking that up!

Now, Pat wrote the afterword to this book; I'd forgotten that Jeffrey Willerth wrote a foreword. He says he stayed with Babylonian Productions through to the first two episodes of Crusade. He doesn't say why he left, only that it wasn't on the best of circumstances. He complains that the actors had no information from the producers about whether they would return in the TV movies or Crusade and that they were all getting frustrated and angry because of it and finding stuff out on the internet before being told on the set, and he implies the producers were not caring about the crew, and that they 'wrangled' a new deal out of the union during the season three strike, which doesn't tally with other perspectives on that deal. Even Pat criticizes the producers saying that they would "have the cast feel disposable and replaceable" when in the next breath she praises JMS saying she'd never seen a producer/creator with such loyalty to the whole team and that the DS9 actors were astounded when they found out B5 actors could just walk into the producer's office for a conversation. So it's all very contradictory and I'm wondering whether it was edited a certain way to make it all sound more bitter than it really is.

I'm willing to bet that's all true, honestly. Firstly, "The Producers" doesn't just mean JMS. He was executive producer, but there were six producers on the show, counting JMS. Also, I get the impression that the working environment in the TNT years was different than in the P-10 years. Shorter production schedule, less money, not much support from the network, and in Crusade they were working on a show the Network wanted dead. So the whole "We could go at any moment" thing is probably true, and it appears they DID intend to fire Gary Cole (Another case of "Piss of JMS and die").

Okay, that's dragged us off-topic. Hopefully though it can put to bed the idea that Lyta was killed off because Pat fell out with JMS.

Nah, nah, nah, I never said that! I never said that Lyda died because JMS was pissed at Pat. I said Lannier died because JMS was pissed at Bill. I totally believe Lyta's death was part of the plan in the same way that Londo and G'Kar's deaths were part of the plan. Lyta was a bomb. There's only one thing bombs can do. It was obvious in Sleeping in Light that she'd done it.

 

[Jan]

This is where I really ought to step back because I end up drilling too deep (and it really doesn't matter) but...

The "I'm not believing it for a minute" thing IS a declaration, though. I honestly don't believe for a minute that that was his 'original' destiny. That doesn't mean that JMS was pissed at him, though. There were a lot of 'original plans' that were set up and never made it to fruition. I see two threads that probably would have come to fruition in the David Sheridan incident that are probably worthy of their own thread, so I'll go start one. Suffice to say, I think Lennier was part of that, and it got dropped for whatever reason.

All I can tell you is that after many years of reading JMS' posts and seeing him in person, I've never seen the slightest inkling of any enmity he has for Bill Mumy. And frankly, I've 'caught' him telling the truth many, many times when it really didn't matter. Conversely, Bill is more than a little bitter over the fact that his script was spiked. He made a point of telling me about that when I asked him to sign my copy of 'Gut Reactions'.

Well, the short story was a fan thing. He put it to a vote: who do you want a story about, and they said "Ivonova." Clearly he couldn't kill her off there.

(told you I should have stepped back, right?) Actually, the for choices were:
A) Old B5 Crew (during the 5 year arc)
B) New B5 Crew (after the 5 year arc)
C) Garibaldi
D) G'Kar
(copied directly from the coupon in the B5 magazine #19) So there was never any need for him to write about Ivanova at all but he chose to do so.

As to SiL, I don't think it's realistic to re-shoot all or part of the episode, particularly on their short schedule and tight budget. They may have talked about it (I'd be surprised if they didn't, really) but it probably wasn't a viable option.

Unknown. Given that it was a season 4 episode and JMS has often said that he returned money to WB each season, a quick change to a couple of scenes might not have been a big deal. Remember, he didn't lock in effects or music until it was time to turn it in as if it were the real 522.

Jan

 

[Republibot 3.0]

This is where I really ought to step back because I end up drilling too deep (and it really doesn't matter) but...
All I can tell you is that after many years of reading JMS' posts and seeing him in person, I've never seen the slightest inkling of any enmity he has for Bill Mumy. And frankly, I've 'caught' him telling the truth many, many times when it really didn't matter. Conversely, Bill is more than a little bitter over the fact that his script was spiked. He made a point of telling me about that when I asked him to sign my copy of 'Gut Reactions'.

Ok, we're getting a little twisty and turny here, and that's my fault for not being clear. I said I thought that JMS and Mumy had a falling out. Probably I'm wrong about that. Let's assume for sure I *am* wrong about that.

That still doesn't mean that JMS couldn't have changed his mind about where he wanted Lennier to end up, right? I mean, he intended to have Garibaldi die at one point. He changed his mind. He toyed with the idea of un-killing Marcus. First it was Lyta, then Talia, then the possibility of a new, 3rd teep, then Lyta again. He changes his mind on occasion for reasons other than "they pissed me off."

So it's possible that he simply changed his mind about where Lannier buys the ol' death nugget, and that decision was completely independent of his relationship with Mumy.

(I discuss my theories on that in the thread "The David Sheridan Incident.")

(told you I should have stepped back, right?) Actually, the for choices were:
A) Old B5 Crew (during the 5 year arc)
B) New B5 Crew (after the 5 year arc)
C) Garibaldi
D) G'Kar
(copied directly from the coupon in the B5 magazine #19) So there was never any need for him to write about Ivanova at all but he chose to do so.

Did not know that! Wish he'd done "B".

 

[Springer]

First it was Lyta, then Talia, then the possibility of a new, 3rd teep, then Lyta again.

This is the first time I have heard that there could have been a third telepath character introduced. Did this get any further than just JMS musing about it?

 

[Republibot 3.0]

This is the first time I have heard that there could have been a third telepath character introduced. Did this get any further than just JMS musing about it?

Probably not. I heard him somewhere mention that the network wanted a new Telepath to pick up where Talia left off. They seemed opposed to the idea of Lyta returning, but they agreed to bring her on as a guest star for an ep or two. Joe wasn't particularly pleased with the idea of Teep #3, and by the time the next season rolled around he just did Lyta and the network either had become cool with it or had simply forgotten their earlier objections.

I'm probably off in some details, I heard this like 15 years ago. I think it was only a breif window while he was considering it.

 

[JoeD80]

That still doesn't mean that JMS couldn't have changed his mind about where he wanted Lennier to end up, right?

Certainly Joe can change his mind any time he wants. However, as I mentioned in the other thread, Bill already knew Lennier was to die in the telepath war. This was before season five was even a go. I will upload the quote when I find it.

As for appearances mentioned up-thread, both Bill and Stephen had new contracts for season five. 7 episodes + 2 to direct for Stephen; 7 episodes + 1 to write for Bill. And although Bill's script wasn't used, he still was paid for it.

Edit:

Found the quote. Interview August 5th, 1997:

When I read that Lennier was toasted as one who had fallen [in Sleeping in Light], at first I tried to appeal that. I went to Joe and said, "Does he have to die?" and Joe said, "He dies in the great telepath war. He'll die like a hero, and it's way down the line; it's two movies down the line." I said, "Yeah, but he has to die?" and Joe said, "Yes, he's dying. He'll die like a hero and it will be great death, and it's after the fifth season" and blah blah blah.

That's Lennier's fate: he dies in the great telepath war somewhere down the line in the future.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

That still doesn't mean that JMS couldn't have changed his mind about where he wanted Lennier to end up, right?

Certainly Joe can change his mind any time he wants. However, as I mentioned in the other thread, Bill already knew Lennier was to die in the telepath war. This was before season five was even a go. I will upload the quote when I find it.

As for appearances mentioned up-thread, both Bill and Stephen had new contracts for season five. 7 episodes + 2 to direct for Stephen; 7 episodes + 1 to write for Bill. And although Bill's script wasn't used, he still was paid for it.

Edit:

Found the quote. Interview August 5th, 1997:

When I read that Lennier was toasted as one who had fallen [in Sleeping in Light], at first I tried to appeal that. I went to Joe and said, "Does he have to die?" and Joe said, "He dies in the great telepath war. He'll die like a hero, and it's way down the line; it's two movies down the line." I said, "Yeah, but he has to die?" and Joe said, "Yes, he's dying. He'll die like a hero and it will be great death, and it's after the fifth season" and blah blah blah.

That's Lennier's fate: he dies in the great telepath war somewhere down the line in the future.

Huh. Well, I'm just damn wrong, I guess.

That's what I like about this site as opposed to Trek or Gate sites: People here know their stuff, don't just natter and attack. (Gate sites do that less than Trek sites, but still)

Anyway, thank you. I think I prefer what I daydreamed over what JMS had in mind, but I am clearly, clearly, clearly wrong.

 

[Jan]

I've always been curious as to how Lennier ended up fighting with the Telepath resistance. I know that he wanted to redeem himself in Delenn's eyes but never really figured out why he'd have found the telepath struggle worthy - especially considering their bent toward terrorism.

One thing I forgot to mention upthread is that JMS mentioned in the fifth season script books having deliberately made sure that all of the B5 characters were spread out around the galaxy in case he was able to use them in Crusade. From what I gather, TNT somehow wanted to have the connection to B5 without having any actual characters from it. JMS was playing with some interesting ideas, though. At one point he seriously suggested Andreas Katsulast for the part of Galen. That would have been so cool! (pardon the thread drift)

Jan

 

[Republibot 3.0]

I've always been curious as to how Lennier ended up fighting with the Telepath resistance. I know that he wanted to redeem himself in Delenn's eyes but never really figured out why he'd have found the telepath struggle worthy - especially considering their bent toward terrorism.

Might not have related at all. Lots of times we want to do things, and don't get the chance. We want to redeem ourselves for something, and we get hit by a bus, or caught up in a war, or whatever. His redemption may have been learning to put his own need for redemption aside and doing what was needed for the greater good rather than for his own soul.

Which is arguably a recurring theme in JMS.

One thing I forgot to mention upthread is that JMS mentioned in the fifth season script books having deliberately made sure that all of the B5 characters were spread out around the galaxy in case he was able to use them in Crusade. From what I gather, TNT somehow wanted to have the connection to B5 without having any actual characters from it. JMS was playing with some interesting ideas, though. At one point he seriously suggested Andreas Katsulast for the part of Galen. That would have been so cool! (pardon the thread drift)
Jan

My limited understanding is that after B5 didn't get the ratings they wanted, they felt a B5 spinoff wouldn't drag followers from B5 since, in there eyes, there weren't any. So having a show with lots of ties to a show no one watched seemed like a bad move. Thus they wanted it to be as standalone as possible.

According to my limited understanding, which is often shown to be wrong here <G>

 

[Jan]

My limited understanding is that after B5 didn't get the ratings they wanted, they felt a B5 spinoff wouldn't drag followers from B5 since, in there eyes, there weren't any. So having a show with lots of ties to a show no one watched seemed like a bad move. Thus they wanted it to be as standalone as possible.

According to my limited understanding, which is often shown to be wrong here <G>

Sorta-kinda but not really. Yes, there was some of that - they didn't want new viewers to feel that they needed to see the original show - despite the fact that they were showing that show in re-runs. B5s ratings were fine as far as numbers of viewers was concerned. Good enough that the commissioned Crusade, as we all know. The difference was that Crusade was their first original show and they seemed to want that separate.

The 'problem' wasn't actual ratings that caused TNT to sabotage Crusade, it was that having B5/Crusade didn't grow their viewership. When B5 would come on, the TNT core audience would leave and the B5 folks came in. When B5 went off, the B5 folks left and the TNT people came back. That did nothing to increase their advertising quotes so they decided to get out of their contract by any means necessary (so to speak).

Corporate politics....isn't it amazing that anything of quality *ever* happens?!?

Jan

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Corporate politics....isn't it amazing that anything of quality *ever* happens?!?

Jan

Generally it doesn't. And then you throw Warners into the mix, and it's vastly worse.