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that dreaming ep of delenn's

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that dreaming ep of delenn\'s

ok dukat asks delenn who is your clan, and she says mir. and he said that she comes from a stong heritage more than you know.

ok this is a sign..the "MORE THAN YOU KNOW' part.

so, then dukat says "I chose you" and then he confirms what "I have suspected"

ok, so, why did he ask her who her clan was if he knew who her clan was??

next-- dukat said that there was stories about the treluminary's being from the past and future and from epsilone.

ok so he knows the history that delenn maybe valen's relations.

My next question is Did sinclair know delenn was his great great etc grandaughter?

I don't suppose any of the books etc. explain more about valen and what happened when he died, and his kids etc...

delenn said 'no one knows' in this ep and i don't recall it being revealed in other eps.
 
Re: that dreaming ep of delenn\'s

OK...

Why did he ask about her clan being of Mira, if he already knew? This happens in cases in real life. He wanted to extend the conversation, or so he could come out and say about her good heritage.
Delenn did find out about being of Valen's line of decendence, when she had to prove why she should be able to wed Sheriden.
Now, I don't remember about the Triluminary thing, only when Zathras talked about the one who was, is, and will be.
There aren't any books out that I know of about Sinclair's life and children. Many people really want to read one like that(me included) but I don't know of any.

Does I help any?
 
Re: that dreaming ep of delenn\'s

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
ok, so, why did he ask her who her clan was if he knew who her clan was??

[/quote]

He doesn't necessarily know what her clan is. Whether the clan structure is matrilinear or patrilinear, the children of anyone who marries outside the clan is going to be counted as a member of that other clan. If the clans are patrilinear, for instance, the children of Valen's daughters wouldn't be members of his clan if they married outside it. So his descendants would not be limited to one clan. The genes of Valen are scattered throughout the clans.

But they only show up strongly in certain individuals. It almost sounds like being an identifiable "child of Valen" is a rare, recessive, genetic trait. Lots of folks are carriers, but unless two of them have children, the trait itself might never show up. And even then it only appears in a certain percentage of off-spring. From observing Delenn he may have suspect her of being a Child of Valen - but this wouldn't tell him which clan she was from. Only the test with the triluminary could confirm that she was a CoV, and only asking (or looking it up) could tell him which clan she belonged to.

Elizar has the other possible answer, of course. He already knew, having researched her background before chosing her, and was just talking to draw her out.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
My next question is Did sinclair know delenn was his great great etc grandaughter?

[/quote]

Unlikely. How would he know? The whole business of the Children of Valen was a secret closely held by the Grey Council and their minions. They wouldn't have casually mentioned it to Earth's ambassador. The Vorlons would have been against letting Sinclair know lest that change how he treated Delenn and altered the necessary sequence of events. Once he's back in the past as Valen, he has no way of ever finding out. He dies almost 900 years before Delenn is born. So he couldn't have told himself in that letter. The only one who could have told him is Delenn, and she's never tells anyone the whole truth about anything unless she has a compelling reason. I don't see a compelling reason for her to tell him this.

(The episode, by the way, was "Atonement")

Regards,

Joe
 
Re: that dreaming ep of delenn\'s

thanks El and joe. but what about sinclair, the ep when he has a whole in his mind, and then he finds out about the truliminary that it means of valen. so sinclair knows what the triluminary means...and he knows he's of valen.

but, he doesn't know delenn and the triluminary???
 
Re: that dreaming ep of delenn\'s

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
so sinclair knows what the triluminary means... and he knows he's of valen.

[/quote]

No, he knows that the triluminary glowed, and he knows that the Minbari let him go. But he doesn't really know for certain what the glow meant, or even that the glow is the reason for his release. Some, not all, of the Council believe that the glow means he has a Minbari soul. A very few believe that he has some or all of Valen's soul. But Sinclair doesn't really learn any of this. By the time he's in a position to make a connection, he's on his way to B5 to steal B4.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
but, he doesn't know delenn and the triluminary?

[/quote]

There isn't any reason he would know about Delenn and the triluminary. That happened when she first joined the Council. Only those who were present would have seen the glow, and not all of them would understand its significance or agree on its meeting. In any event, the Grey Council is very good at keeping its secrets. They wouldn't discuss the incident involving Delenn casually even among themselves, and would certainly never talk about it to (or even in front of) outsiders. The other members of the Council would be vying for position in the wake of Dukhat's death (and probably the death of one or more council members in the same attack. The Council consisted of the Leader, Dukhat, and "the Nine" But Delenn is told the Council is deadlocked as she cradles the dead Dukhat. You can't have a deadlock with nine voting members, so one or more of the council must also have been killed or incapcitated.) They would have no reason to publicize the fact that Delenn is a "Child of Valen", which might increase her prestige.

Finally, as I suggested above, Sinclair really has no other opportunity to find out about Delenn, except from Delenn herself. And I don't think she would tell him. (I think part of the reason Delenn looks so shocked at the end of "WWE" is that it finally dawns on her that Sinclair is her forebearer.)

Regards,

Joe
 
Re: that dreaming ep of delenn\'s

Mir doesn't necessarily mean her clan. That could be her father's name, or a family surname if you will.

As for the thing with Sinclair, I don't think he knows exactly who he is until WWE part 1 where he gets that letter. I think Delenn knew he was possibly Valen, but was probably not sure until then herself.
 
Re: that dreaming ep of delenn\'s

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
The Council consisted of the Leader, Dukhat, and "the Nine" But Delenn is told the Council is deadlocked as she cradles the dead Dukhat. You can't have a deadlock with nine voting members, so one or more of the council must also have been killed or incapcitated.

[/quote]

Hold on. At that time, Delenn had just been initiated into the council, so she would be one of the nine. That leaves 8 others, 4 for each. Wouldn't that make her the deciding vote?

That brings up another question. Who voted for/against a war with the humans? The 3 members of the Warrior caste were probably for it. So who was the other one?
 
Re: that dreaming ep of delenn\'s

About Dukat's method of questioning:

Wasn't it Dukat himself who once stated that he never asks a question unless he already knows the answer? (As opposed to Garibaldi, who never starts a conversation without knowing what his counter-argument will be.)

Dukat likes to draw people out. He asks loaded questions, listens to the responses, and watches reactions VERY closely. He also had a flair for the dramatic. So asking the question so he could drop her a clue about her heritage would be right in character.

About her heritage: Delenn could not have told Sinclair because, as seen in "Atonement", she didn't really know it herself until she relived the death of Dukat through the Dreaming in that episode. By then, Sinclair was gone.

Although he became Entil'Z'ha, Sinclair was never given open access to the goings-on of the Grey Council; they generally regarded him with a combination of skepticism and suspicion. Aside from ISN anchor Dan Randall, Sinclair was the last person in the Universe they would want to tell about the Triluminary and the Children of Valen.

And I seem to recall that there were three triluminaries in total. I don't know if the triluminary is spent after its use in the Crysalis machine or not, but if it is, it would seem that Draal knew that there would be need for one more transformation <font class="small">Spoiler:</font>
<table bgcolor="#000000" cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2" border="0"><tr bgcolor="#000000"><td bgcolor="#000000" id="spoiler"><font color="#000000"> for Catherine Sakai, who was lost earlier that year through the rift in Sector 14 and supposedly "found" in the past by Sinclair. Once their children merged with the general population on Minbar, the spread of small amounts of human DNA began. </font></td></tr></table>
 
Re: that dreaming ep of delenn\'s

<<< By the time he's in a position to make a connection, he's on his way to B5 to steal B4. >>>

<<< ... I don't think he knows exactly who he is until WWE part 1 where he gets the letter. >>>

It's too bad he wasn't really there to meet Kosh in "The Gathering". Then he would have known all along.
 
Re: that dreaming ep of delenn\'s

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
It's too bad he wasn't really there to meet Kosh in "The Gathering". Then he would have known all along.

[/quote]

No, he wouldn't have - for several reasons.

1) Real world. The "Entil'Zha Valen" line didn't exist in the original version of the pilot. JMS had scripted it, but cut it prior to filming because he thought it would be a spoiler. He added it back in when the film was re-edited for TNT. I have enough trouble with the time-paradoxes. Don't really make my head explode by considering variations on the material itself, and which version Sinclair "really" lived through. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

2) Even if Sinclair had heard the line, he probably would have thought it was some kind of Mibari blessing. He wouldn't have the faintest idea what an "Entil'Zha" was, and having heard the word only once, it is unlikely that he'd remember it exactly enough to find out. He didn't learn about the Entil'Zha (or the Rangers) until his sojourn on Minbar.

3) Kosh didn't say the line out loud. We (and Lyta) are hearing his thoughts as she scans his memories of his arrival. Note that you don't hear the sound of his translator before the line. This is a "thought balloon", although you're hardly alone in thinking otherwise. They didn't make this nearly as clear as they should have.

Regards,

Joe
 
Re: that dreaming ep of delenn\'s

Mir wasn't the name of her clan... I don't know what clan she belonged to but Mir was her family name. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Delenn of the family Mir.
 
Re: that dreaming ep of delenn\'s

> That leaves 8 others, 4 for each. Wouldn't that make her the deciding vote? <

Zathras good at tellings. Not so good at addings and subtractings. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

(Once again proving that the 700-point difference between my verbal and math scores on the SAT was not a fluke. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif)

And War Demon is right, of course. Dukhat asks Delenn about her family, not clan, name in any case. She is identified at several points in the series (including the Entil'Zha ceremony, IIRC, as "Delenn of the Family Mir." Of course, knowing her family name probably tells Dukhat her clan, but that is neither here nor there.

Regards,

Joe
 
Re: that dreaming ep of delenn\'s

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Hold on. At that time, Delenn had just been initiated into the council, so she would be one of the nine. That leaves 8 others, 4 for each. Wouldn't that make her the deciding vote?

[/quote]

Yes, in theory. But wasn't Dukhat also a member of the nine? He certainly can't have voted because he was ... erm ... otherwise engaged at the time. That leaves 8 including Delenn, so she couldn't be the deciding vote.

However, as Delenn proved in The Gathering, the Minbari are happy with the concept of abstention. We do not know the voting numbers only that they are deadlocked.

Perhaps the 3 Warrior Caste members voted for war, two Worker and the one remaining Religious Caste members voted against with the third Worker Caste member abstaining. That would be 3-all with one abstention.

The only remaining members are Dukhat and Delenn, which leaves Delenn effectively with the deciding vote.

Just my $0.02

/forums/images/icons/grin.gif
 
Re: that dreaming ep of delenn\'s

I should not say anything, because all of you know so much more about B5 than I do. But I will (he he he):

I thought that Delen replaced Dukat on the council. Like she was a trainee that had to suddenly take over the "real job" when Dukat died. /forums/images/icons/confused.gif
 
Re: that dreaming ep of delenn\'s

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Yes, in theory. But wasn't Dukhat also a member of the nine?

[/quote]

No. From the time of Valen the Council consisted of "The Chosen One" (the leader) and the Nine. Don't forget, Valen himself had no caste, and therefore could not represent one. (Or could represent them all impartially.) That role devolved upon his successors. In the absence of a leader the Council consisted of just the Nine, an arrangement that assured there would not be deadlock.

(I don't think the leader had a vote in the ordinary course of things. He could persuade, he could cajole, and in certain areas he could make the final decision even if the Council did not agree. But I think that on major "legislative" items he - or she - could speak in debate, but the Nine caste representatives would vote. One of the things that led to the power-struggles following Dukhat's death was that no leader was appointed to replace him for so long - so the various factions tried to gradually assume some of the powers of the former leader.)

Regards,

Joe
 
Re: that dreaming ep of delenn\'s

I bow to your greater wisdom in these matters as always Joe.

/forums/images/icons/grin.gif

I will have to go back and rewatch ItB now (not that that is any hardship of course) because I could have sworn that the scenes with Dukhat and the Grey Council showed 8 Council members plus him.

Mr Unobservant is obviously in my brain on a visit at present.

/forums/images/icons/grin.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif /forums/images/icons/grin.gif
 
Re: that dreaming ep of delenn\'s

Good old Joe, with the answers as always. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif
 
Re: that dreaming ep of delenn\'s

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
No. From the time of Valen the Council consisted of "The Chosen One" (the leader) and the Nine.

[/quote]
Man ... now I am confused.

I have just dug out the ItB DVD and watched back the scene where Lenonn is trying to get the Grey Council to agree support for the Rangers.

There are clearly 9 circles of light, eight of them occupied by members of the Council and an empty one, presumably belonging to Dukhat who is walking purposefully around the outside of the circle.

So, either one of them is off sick ... or else Dukhat is one of the nine after all !!

Also Dukhat clearly states in that scene that the Grey Council was created by Valen so that no caste would have power over the other two (or words to that effect). On that basis, the leader would have to be a member of the 9, otherwise whichever caste provided the leader would have a dominant position.

However, I can well believe that Valen himself was not a member of the nine, given that he had no Minbari caste to begin with.

Just another $0.02.
 
Re: that dreaming ep of delenn\'s

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
There are clearly 9 circles of light, eight of them occupied by members of the Council and an empty one, presumably belonging to Dukhat who is walking purposefully around the outside of the circle.

So, either one of them is off sick ... or else Dukhat is one of the nine after all !!

[/quote]

I haven't watched this for a while, but if I remember correctly, isn't this before Delenn joins the council? I've always assumed that the empty space was the one she took, making the council up to nine again.

Dukhat remains to one side of the council, not one of the nine.

Another 2 pence worth (don't have any cents to hand, so will a Brit penny do instead? /forums/images/icons/smile.gif )
 
Re: that dreaming ep of delenn\'s

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I haven't watched this for a while, but if I remember correctly, isn't this before Delenn joins the council? I've always assumed that the empty space was the one she took, making the council up to nine again.

[/quote]

No Delenn is definitely there (although it is before she had undergone "The Ritual" because Coplann tries to stop her saying anything for that reason) and as far as I can see she is one of the people standing in a circle of light. There was certainly no one else outside the circle.

Coplann also says that she is standing in for Satai Codroni (probably spelt wrong but then I've never seen it written down) who is presumably the Council member she replaced.

I don't want anyone to think I am making a big deal of this - in the whole scheme of things it matters not, but it is unusual for what I see on screen and what JoeDM has to say to (apparently) be at odds. I am just trying to get the right handle on it.

And as a Brit myself, pennies will do just fine !!

/forums/images/icons/cool.gif
 
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