The Arrogant Sheridan

[deaded]

That sentiment certainly doesn't agree with your opinions in the Byron thread. Are you really two people, posting under the same name?

Sure it does. Just because I like a character does not mean I can't find fault with him. Hell, nobody is perfect and I can appreciate people despite their faults. But get a grip, these are characters in a story and we are just discussing them. It's ok if I take both sides.

~Using people as weapons is a standard part of an officer’s job. The people are normally called soldiers and seamen but they are still used as attack weapons~

Not without their consent. Soldiers go into battle willingly, understanding their job and the chain of command. These were essentially kidnapped civilians; those whom the military has a responsibility to protect, not exploit.

edit: I like your observations 2aMageing and I totally agree. But in becoming streamlined I think Sheridan lost a lot of his humanity. Not to say humanity is not better off, or the galaxy for that matter, but I'm not so sure that Sheridan was better off. Personally I've often wondered what kind of a dad he was to David.

 

[sleepy_shadow]

I personally don't consider his choice regarding the telepaths "streamlined" in any sense.

I consider it a simple grievous error. Very luckily not the beginning of a string of errors.

If "streamlined" means "capable of seeing beyond one's nose"... Sheridan's choice was not streamlined.

He cared about the *wrong* lives. He sacrificed civlilans, firstly innocent of anything but disagreeing with the Psi-Corps... secondly whose saving would have brought him notable credit, support and appreciation... to save the lives of mostly-willing opponents bearing arms for a dictator... ready to stab him in the back later.

I call that inefficient in addition to unjust. He was served his enemies on silver platter... yet he ordered a bag of fried civilians.

Concern for using alien ships was pointless. He should have accepted their fullest support already at Mars.

-----------

There is a flip side, however. I know that Sheridan was from Earth Force... and for sentimental reasons, had trouble shooting at ships which he once served on.

I also know that *some* people aboard Earth Force ships... were in a situation *resemblant* of the Shadow-modified telepaths. Those people still had self-control, enjoyed freedom of choice... but were following orders because of fear and threat.

Unfortunately, since they had options like mutiny and desertion at their fingertips... I can muster less compassion for them. From my viewpoint, Sheridan had no excuse to force innocent persons to fight and die... for anyone who would *refuse* to rise up and shoot their superiors (or simply refuse to shoot, permitting their ship to be safely disabled).

 

[2aMageing]

Well, I can't defend him on that one. I don't know if JMS was simply using him to set things up, but the "using" of the telepaths that he let stay on B5 seemed very out of character for most any incarnation of Sheridan. It seemed far to manipulative with far too little concern for the telepath's futures.........I also have a real problem with his lack of taking care of Lyta after the shadow war.........she SHOULD have been added to staff, on payroll, and brought into the circle as an equally respected memeber........if for no other reason than to avoid her turning her considerable power on them.....though not the best of reasons for doing so.

 

[hypatia]

I've wondered that myself. Why the heck didn't they just hire Lyta? It would have solve sooooooooooo many problems later on.

I fear the only explanation might be that Sheridan didn't really see telepaths as being people with sovereign rights. He saw them as tools he could use to gain an edge in the event of a telepath war, and that's all.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Hiring Lyta would have messed up the story - she had to be alone to come out fighting. She is Queen of the Elves not a member of the Fellowship of the Ring.

Sheridan appears to have a major problem with telepaths. He is always going into negotiations without one on his team. As Sinclair decided in "Born to the Purple" diplomats lie by default and only tell the truth under pressure.

 

[sleepy_shadow]

I don't think he could afford negotiating under telepathic lie-detection.

Assuming that medical aid administered by Lorien (or Kosh having borrowed his brain for temporary shelter)... really did turn it incompatible for telepathic reading or manipulation of thought... the other negotiator's telepath would have noticed it, and hardly kept silent about it.

Having a possible trump card tabled in public (especially when presented as an attempt to cheat)... might not have benefitted him.

 

[Alluveal]

Sheridan, Arrogant? Ohhh you BETCHA! That's precisely why I absolutely love the character. He's such a maverick.

 

[deaded]

I think that Sheridan shared Garabaldi's distrust of telepaths. Sure they both like Lyta and used her but never fully trusted her. IMHO it's an irreconsilable problem. How can you trust someone who can read your mind, can manipulate you, and knows all your secrets? A big part of the way Sheridan dealt with conflict was by bluffing. You can't bluf a telepath. Also Sheridan did not like to share the details of his plans with ANYONE; not Garabaldi, not Ivonava, not even Delen. If Lyta was part of the inner sanctum he could not have kept anything from her and there would be no way to make sure everything was under his control. IMHO Lyta's destruction of Zahadum forever prevented their relationship from progressing. Sheridan would always have to be afraid that Lyta would take matters into her own hands if she disagreed with him.

 

[2aMageing]

What caught me up ....for more than just a moment......was when Sheridan explains his reasons for letting the telepaths stay on B5 in season 5...........He started by saying......"A war between normals and telepaths is coming"........and I would have bet all the tea in china that he was going to finish it........."so we should do all we can to defuse it".......but NO, HO no, we should have "a few of our own".........like describing them as Nuclear Weapons or something, MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction thinking)...........he largely lost me with that statement and the appearant thinking behind it.

I am sitting there wondering .....is there NO ONE, who is not a telepath, in this show who sees telepath humans as HUMANS, and believes they have at LEAST as good a shot of making it workout together as an Intersteller Alliance of ALIENS would????

And having typed that I am reminded of the speech delivered by the minister in The Rock Cried Out episode.......the bit about us all being alien to each other..........telepaths are just as responsible to not randomly scan other people, as other people are responsible to not pick up a gun and shoot someone........we can all do harm to others, don't need telepathy for that, but it is about self control and developing respect for your fellow beings. Not out of the realm of possibility, at least not IMHO.

 

[deaded]

I am sitting there wondering .....is there NO ONE, who is not a telepath, in this show who sees telepath humans as HUMANS, and believes they have at LEAST as good a shot of making it workout together as an Intersteller Alliance of ALIENS would????

In that statement you imply that telepaths DO feel like they are human and can work togeather with normals. I don't believe this. Until Crusade I never saw a telepath who didn't think they were better than mundanes; that they were the next step in evolution. Personally I think that this is a big reason WHY normals hate telepaths. Most of us dislike people who think they are better than us. I know I do. Personally I find the fact that normals and telepaths worked out their differences in the future a bit far fetched.

 

[2aMageing]

I understand that many if not most tps we saw in B5 were less than receptive to "normals". But I don't think they REALLY believe they are a higher species, I am under the impression that most all we saw had grown up under the current system, if you are a tp, you are segregated from the population, forced labor for psi core or drugged into submission. Under those conditions, I too would become resentful, unaccepting, and maybe even as a defense mechanism go off about black.....er, excused me, telepath power and how it makes us better.......simply as a human mechanism to survive being so trod upon by the system and those who maintain it.

I think, without a governemtn mandate forcing people into psi core, and with out a cultist extreme reactionary leader guiding, telepaths can and would desire life on equal terms with "normals". Could be mistaken, it happens........but this is my impression.

You are suggesting normals hate telepaths because tps started out acting superior, and I believe that it came about the other way around. I would bet normals feared and resented tps well before (and probably from the very beginning, fear of the unkown, the different) before tps got "religious" and superior about their gifts.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

I'm with you, 2aMageing, I think ordinary humans were distrustful of teeps right off the bat, and ostracized them, thus putting them on the defensive, and making them withdraw, even before Psycorps was formed. And Psycorps just made it that much worse. The question you ask, 'Could no one see them as humans?' is a very apt one, because most humans would behave as they did, put in that situation, and if they were treated as fellow humans, things would have gone much better for everyone.

 

[KoshFan]

Of course, in some ways Sheridan is a precursor to "the next stage of human evolution" as well, what with him going beyond the rim and all. In some ways his arrogance in S4 and 5 might have exactly the same roots as, say, Bester's.

 

[GKarsEye]

Would you people honestly be able to "trust" telepaths?

This is exactly the whole point of the telepath issue in the B5 universe- it is practically impossible to have a peaceful understanding coexistence between people who can read minds and those who can't. I'd be scared shitless around them, or if I were one, what's to stop me from reading minds?

As you all condemn Sheridan's actions, what would happen had he not used the teepsicles? Would Clark win? And then what- more thousands of innocent civilians killed for political gain?

Once Sheridan broke away from earth and became a mutaneer, he didn't do it because he disagreed with the nature of the chain of command, or that the military shouldn't take orders from a civilian government. But that Clark was so bad that some of the rules have to be broken for a greater purpose. So, yes, comes with it the responsibility of any such leader- who do we kill for what?

All things considered, 30 (?) probably incurable people, teeps or not, was worth the hundreds or thousands of lives saved.

Edit: this isn't good debating practice (argument by authority), but surely we can at least all agree that Franklin is a pretty ethical and moral guy, including to telepaths (he helped their underground)- and he even agreed with Sheridan's decision.

 

[deaded]

Yes, I agree that the cycle started with mundanes not trusting teeps. And I agree that if I grew up in PsiCorps I would be resentful of normals too. And if I were taught my whole life that I was hated and that I was superior to those that hate me I'm sure I'd grow up thinking I was better than them. But because we created the monster does not mean we can discount it. Seriously, can you really see trusting a teep? They have unfair advantages in all walks of life. That kind of power corrupts. I think that teeps and mundanes are fundamentally incompatible. How do the Minbari do it? I don't know but since they don't lie (yeah, yeah, I know) it might not be as much of a problem. The Centauri don't seem to have them running around in the general population either. The Narn just want them as weapons. No, I just don't see how normals can truly mix with teeps. Sure there will always be exceptions to every rule but that's my thought on the subject.

 

[2aMageing]

I guess it comes down to human capacity. Would people with such uncommon inborn power be willing to forego its use to benefit society. I still have to believe it is no different than being able shoot, stab, or beat someone up...........we can all wield that power, but we chose not to, for most of us anyway. It would just be a question of whether the same standard could be setup in their society. At this point, after all that has gone under the bridge, it would be harder, to be sure. But there are many people in real life who have access to things and information that they could use on others......and many show self control. I don't believe it is different enough in this case to write the telepaths off from fitting in without doing any more harm than any small percentage of bad people commonly do with other resources.

 

[sleepy_shadow]

you all condemn Sheridan's actions, what would happen had he not used the teepsicles? Would Clark win? And then what- more thousands of innocent civilians killed for political gain?

You are forgetting the situation.
The options were:

1) Force about 50 innocent victims to act as weapons, thus saving the lives of (maximum estimate) 1500 Earth Force crewmembers.

Said Earth Force crewmembers had *no* business defending a dictator, were *completely* free to shoot their officers -- and thusly deserved to face the question "fight, flee or surrender" without a shortcut bought with innocent lives.

2) Request a selection of technically and numerically superior ships (White Stars, Minbari, Centauri and presumably other warships)... to corner the Mars battle group.

Demand their crews to surrender and arrest their officers. Post a sufficient number of dangerous-enough ships to guard their surrender. If some fight, swiftly destroy those. Not others.

3) Proceed to Earth while ignoring the Mars battle group, and destroy any ships attempting to follow using simple force.

 

[2aMageing]

Mmm, yeah, it was't like they had Sheridan out numbered or out gunned........heck even without the alien force backing him up, I am not sure he hadn't them outnumbered and out gunned with just the whitestars and the earthforce ships that were supposedly flooding to his side all the way since Proxima. It was sacrifice some number of unconsenting people (uncurable was not yet a firm conclusion, and does not negate their right to choose) to avoid fighting a large group of your own species. It would have been like Lincoln throwing 30 sick civilians onto the battle field as connon fodder to avoid killing 1000 rebel soldiers...............it doesn't sound acceptable either way.

But he did it, made the decision based solely on the MATH of it.......and as for doctor Franklin "supporting" the tactic.......I have a pretty clear memory of Franklin in the bunker on Mars, still going round and round with himself about it.........for my take, I think he was simply following the order, made binding by his loyalty to, and trust of, Sheridan. I don't think he ever would have supported it. But he trusted in the "moral authority of his CO".

 

[sleepy_shadow]

but surely we can at least all agree that Franklin is a pretty ethical and moral guy

As you said... argument by authority... but every authority errs, and every rule has exceptions. In this case, I consider his assistance unethical -- and think he should have refused.

Would you people honestly be able to "trust" telepaths?

By default I don't trust anyone. I would strive *not* to trust... either telepaths or mundanes beyond the level of time/cooperation an individual has invested into gaining my trust.

However, should an individual gain my trust -- via repeated mutually beneficial cooperation, despite opportunity to cheat -- I would trust that individual, to level which I consider adequate in light of previous experience. Even if their set of abilities should differ from mine.

To persons whose abilities might be dangerous to me... gaining trust would simply be more difficult, and the calculation of how close to let them at particular points during confidence-building... would be more conservative.

---------

Telepaths would simply face an additional problem. Aware of them carrying a weapon which they cannot drop... a weapon for altering my perceptions... I might have to approach them armed. With my own weapons.

Trying to imagine myself into the world of B5... how would I ground the hazard of telepathy? Via technology. I might carry around a pocket-sized drone, with ability to monitor my mind against signs of tampering, locate any source of such tampering... and engage such an individual... in exchange of payload.

This would be an individual solution. On civilization level however, far smarter opportunities might become available:

1) Once somebody has telepathy, a civilization might decide to offer opportunity of becoming telepathic... freely to every person, if they only want, and technology permits.

2) Once somebody has telepathy, a civilization might decide to offer opportunity of dropping telepathic ability... freely to every person, if they only want, and technology permits.

3) Once telepathy develops... understanding of biological mind would presumably quickly develop... and soon enough, opportunities might open for notably enhancing biological mind.

People might enhance their mind with technologies which take it beyond reach of telepathy (how about optical quantum computing)...

...or oppositely, while staying within reach of telepathy... adopt cryptographic/steganographic techniques to reduce mind-tampering to simple barbaric attack.

If a telepath could not understand a mind, he/she could only use brute force to try destroying it... but a mind capapble of hiding its real structure would hardly expose its vulnerable points... and might thus withstand telepathic attack sufficiently well for most telepaths to utterly exhaust themselves before causing a mild headache.

 

[KoshFan]

How do the Minbari do it? I don't know but since they don't lie (yeah, yeah, I know) it might not be as much of a problem. The Centauri don't seem to have them running around in the general population either. The Narn just want them as weapons.

I gave this some thought a while back. I imagine that Centauri telepaths are basically organized like the Human PsiCorps, but predictably enough any such Centauri organization has long ago degenerated into corruption and gone to seed. The Minbari, on the other hand, dealt with the problem like they deal with everything: build it into the religion and follow blindly. (Honestly, I have to wonder about the Minbari sometimes. They give me the sense of being very good but very unimaginative people.... maybe the workers have a little more fun.)