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The end of 'Enterprise'
- Thread starter Sinclair
- Start date
Ninja_Squirrel
Regular
Re: The end of \'Enterprise\'
A holographic community? Sounds like the DS9 season 2 episode Shadowplay, which first aired 21 February 1994. Eleven years ago! Maybe they thought people would have forgotten in 11 years and that they could recycle a similar storyline without anyone noticing.
A holographic community? Sounds like the DS9 season 2 episode Shadowplay, which first aired 21 February 1994. Eleven years ago! Maybe they thought people would have forgotten in 11 years and that they could recycle a similar storyline without anyone noticing.
Re: The end of \'Enterprise\'
The really funny thing is I didn't even like that episode that much in DS9, much less the Enterprise remake.
But want to know what the post ST:TNG Treks have been really missing IMHO? ST:TOS, ST:TNG, and B5 had one thing in common (well, lots of things really), they all had good intros. You knew right off the bat what the heck was going on, and why you should care.
Although DS9 and ST:Voyager had beautifully composed music in the opening credits, it told you nothing to wrap your mind around. Letting people know what's going on, and why they should care is so important. If you don't, you risk losing your audience.
That's the one alright.
The really funny thing is I didn't even like that episode that much in DS9, much less the Enterprise remake.
But want to know what the post ST:TNG Treks have been really missing IMHO? ST:TOS, ST:TNG, and B5 had one thing in common (well, lots of things really), they all had good intros. You knew right off the bat what the heck was going on, and why you should care.
Although DS9 and ST:Voyager had beautifully composed music in the opening credits, it told you nothing to wrap your mind around. Letting people know what's going on, and why they should care is so important. If you don't, you risk losing your audience.
colonyearth
Regular
Re: The end of \'Enterprise\'
That, my friend, explains exactly what's been wrong with TREK for over 15 years under the RB banner.
Everyone has said pretty much everything I wanted to say about the finale. It was pure B&B shit...exactly as I expected it to be.
May the gods bless us with an announcement very soon that RB is leaving TREK forever and taking his monkey, BB, with him!
He's ruined TREK for the last time I hope. Only wish I could have a good sit-down talk with the peeps at Paramount. There's a few things I'd like to make sure they know and understand.
Oh well...it's all just bullshit anyway.
CE
That, my friend, explains exactly what's been wrong with TREK for over 15 years under the RB banner.
Everyone has said pretty much everything I wanted to say about the finale. It was pure B&B shit...exactly as I expected it to be.
May the gods bless us with an announcement very soon that RB is leaving TREK forever and taking his monkey, BB, with him!
He's ruined TREK for the last time I hope. Only wish I could have a good sit-down talk with the peeps at Paramount. There's a few things I'd like to make sure they know and understand.
Oh well...it's all just bullshit anyway.
CE
Re: The end of \'Enterprise\'
Oh no no no no no, ol' Rick Berman made it quite clear what the *real* problem is, "franchise fatigue".
Oh BTW, yes that is VAST amounts of sarcasm you just smelt coming out of your computer as you read my above statement.
JMS said it right:
Edited Part:
Which you will note my handle is in part my name (ARK-Arlen Roy Kundert), the other half in honor of the good old NCC-1701
So I am one of those fans who are as JMS stated hungering for a Trek done right!
Oh no no no no no, ol' Rick Berman made it quite clear what the *real* problem is, "franchise fatigue".
Oh BTW, yes that is VAST amounts of sarcasm you just smelt coming out of your computer as you read my above statement.
JMS said it right:
Edited Part:
Which you will note my handle is in part my name (ARK-Arlen Roy Kundert), the other half in honor of the good old NCC-1701
So I am one of those fans who are as JMS stated hungering for a Trek done right!
vacantlook
Super Moderator
Re: The end of \'Enterprise\'
I know I certainly wouldn't mind some Trek done right. Trek is a complex, rich universe with many more opportunities for story telling, so I think "franchise fatigue" is crap. That Berman brought that out as why Enterprise went down is just emblematic of Berman: he seems to be unwilling to take any responsibility for how Trek has been under his authority. If it's anything, I would think that the vast numbers of Star Trek fans that have come out saying that they love Trek just not what Trek has become says that indeed people want more Trek, just not BermanTrek. Berman has had the reigns of Trek for so long that it seems he can't conceptualize Trek as being something other than what he views Trek as. If Berman had personally created all of Trek instead of Roddenberry, I might would be arguing that he could create it however he wanted to, but that's not the case. He took the reigns from someone else and has had a responsibility for doing Trek to live up to what it once was under the leadership of the creator and visionary that spawned it. I think he has failed to do so for too long of a time.
Take Voyager for instance. I liked how Voyager started. Granted, there were things I had problems with -- I thought Janeway was monotone and emotionless and that bothered me coming from the show's head character -- but there were things that I thought had amazing potential as well -- the fact that this is the first Federation ship in a new part of the galaxy without allies. I wanted to see the building of allies, and those allies stick around and help them out over the course of the show, not just someone show up and help them in a single episode and never be seen again. I wanted to see true bonds form, not superficiality. I wanted to see Kes age and die and how her entire life would affect the crew. With TOS, the relationship that explored what is humanity was between Kirk and Spock. In TNG it was between Picard and Data. I was wanting to see how it would be between Janeway and Kes, but they plucked her out of there and put Seven of Nine in instead, who could have been a good character addition, but not character replacement.
One of the things I've grown weary of in regards to Trek is how the characters seem to have no personalities. The feel empty to me, or at least partial and unfilled in terms of a writer creating a character. On Voyager, I probably felt it the most in Ensign Kim. On Enterprise, the most would probably be the pilot guy whose name despite being a main character I can't remember. I want memorability put into the show again so that my investment in watching is paid off.
I know I certainly wouldn't mind some Trek done right. Trek is a complex, rich universe with many more opportunities for story telling, so I think "franchise fatigue" is crap. That Berman brought that out as why Enterprise went down is just emblematic of Berman: he seems to be unwilling to take any responsibility for how Trek has been under his authority. If it's anything, I would think that the vast numbers of Star Trek fans that have come out saying that they love Trek just not what Trek has become says that indeed people want more Trek, just not BermanTrek. Berman has had the reigns of Trek for so long that it seems he can't conceptualize Trek as being something other than what he views Trek as. If Berman had personally created all of Trek instead of Roddenberry, I might would be arguing that he could create it however he wanted to, but that's not the case. He took the reigns from someone else and has had a responsibility for doing Trek to live up to what it once was under the leadership of the creator and visionary that spawned it. I think he has failed to do so for too long of a time.
Take Voyager for instance. I liked how Voyager started. Granted, there were things I had problems with -- I thought Janeway was monotone and emotionless and that bothered me coming from the show's head character -- but there were things that I thought had amazing potential as well -- the fact that this is the first Federation ship in a new part of the galaxy without allies. I wanted to see the building of allies, and those allies stick around and help them out over the course of the show, not just someone show up and help them in a single episode and never be seen again. I wanted to see true bonds form, not superficiality. I wanted to see Kes age and die and how her entire life would affect the crew. With TOS, the relationship that explored what is humanity was between Kirk and Spock. In TNG it was between Picard and Data. I was wanting to see how it would be between Janeway and Kes, but they plucked her out of there and put Seven of Nine in instead, who could have been a good character addition, but not character replacement.
One of the things I've grown weary of in regards to Trek is how the characters seem to have no personalities. The feel empty to me, or at least partial and unfilled in terms of a writer creating a character. On Voyager, I probably felt it the most in Ensign Kim. On Enterprise, the most would probably be the pilot guy whose name despite being a main character I can't remember. I want memorability put into the show again so that my investment in watching is paid off.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
Re: The end of \'Enterprise\'
I had another thought about it all when I was brushing and flossing my teeth a little while ago.
Star Trek.
Trek.
A journey. That's what a trek is: it's a journey. It's going places. Going places, when it comes to storytelling, is more than just having any miscellaneous plot. That's part of what I've felt has been missing from Star Trek for quite some time. I oh so rarely feel after I watch or while I watch that I'm going somewhere, that I'm being taken for a ride, a journey, a trek. I see potential when I've watched, but that potential just doesn't quite get actualized.
I had another thought about it all when I was brushing and flossing my teeth a little while ago.
Star Trek.
Trek.
A journey. That's what a trek is: it's a journey. It's going places. Going places, when it comes to storytelling, is more than just having any miscellaneous plot. That's part of what I've felt has been missing from Star Trek for quite some time. I oh so rarely feel after I watch or while I watch that I'm going somewhere, that I'm being taken for a ride, a journey, a trek. I see potential when I've watched, but that potential just doesn't quite get actualized.
GKarsEye
Regular
Re: The end of \'Enterprise\'
I missed Terra Prime because my stupid ReplayTV recorded the final twice (I must have had it set to keep 2 episodes, so the finale repeat deleted Terra Prime or something).
So can someone just tell me how the baby came to be?
I guess they just wanted to involved Jeffrey Combs somehow, like TNG built an episode around Q.
I know. WTF?! Ok, surprise us like that, fine, but at least explain it?
Seeing Riker had the same effect as the narration at the end did:
1. Just made me think of how crappy Enterprise was compared to TOS and TNG
2. I now understood why Jolene Blalock called the finale "abysmal"- the treated the finale as a finale for the franchise, not just the series. Even if the series was subpar, it still deserved its own finale, not be validated by including outside stuff.
I like when Troi said "in those days they didn't have a ship's counselor" Yeah, 'cause maybe they were tougher! The worst part about TNG is how PC polite, nice and neat everyone is.
Well that didn't bother me. At least we know what happens to them.
Because they weren't Enterprises.
I believe so, yes.
I guess this was supposed to make us nervous and excited during the shoot-out scene rescuing Shran's daughter, a red-herring since he was saved by Archer.
Even though Denise Richards came back a number of times. The great thing about science-fiction is that nobody is really "dead." With Yar, yer first re-apparence (Yesterday's Enterprise) was one of the greatest moments of Trek history. Her subsequent reappearances as Yar's Romulan daughter were fun but corny.
Because I don't think Weaton was quitting at that point, he was already gone for years. They just knew it was the last season and wanted to send him off on a positive note.
What else could it be?
One thing that bothered me a lot is that a "historical record" portrays private, intimate conversations between the people involved. Yes, I suppose it would have been a result of compiling what the people involved said happened in interviews and memoirs, but still... creepy.
Nerd nitpick: the "cleaning up" actually took two episodes.
Riker was deciding whether or not to disobey the orders of the highest ranking officer in his current situation (the Pegasus captain, who out-ranked Picard) as opposed to doing what he felt was right (telling Picard about the cloaking device).
Tripp disobeyed Archer's command to not cooperate with the bad guys (taking them to Shran). He actually told an enemy to knock out his captain so that he could accomplish his sneaky act of sabotage.
The conncetion is there but tenuous. Both went against protocol for a greater good and following their conscience. But Riker was making a careful, tortured, deliberate decision and was dealing with competing loyalties (Riker didn't resent or hate his old Pegasus captain), while Tripp operated on instinct.
So yeah, it was bullshit.
I used to not like Rker, but upon re-watching the series a couple of years ago, he became my favorite character after the Big Three (Picard, Data, Worf, the three that most people would consider their favorites). Mainly I like him because he's the least TNG-ish character. In other circumstances, I can imagine him being less noble and pure and good.
I think axing here was their idea, not hers. So basically when an actor decides to leave, they die, but when they want to can someone, they evolve or some shit.
Re: Roddenberry/Berman
I think Roddenberry lost or gave up creative control of the franchise long before his death. I don't think he had much input in the films, and even some of his TNG ideas were questionable (Crusher is his fault). Roddenberry, like Lucas, created great universes, but both often work better when other folks help out.
If Roddenberry had seen how DS9 turned out he probably would have rolled over in his grave, but that show kicked ass.
I missed Terra Prime because my stupid ReplayTV recorded the final twice (I must have had it set to keep 2 episodes, so the finale repeat deleted Terra Prime or something).
So can someone just tell me how the baby came to be?
I guess they just wanted to involved Jeffrey Combs somehow, like TNG built an episode around Q.
I know. WTF?! Ok, surprise us like that, fine, but at least explain it?
Seeing Riker had the same effect as the narration at the end did:
1. Just made me think of how crappy Enterprise was compared to TOS and TNG
2. I now understood why Jolene Blalock called the finale "abysmal"- the treated the finale as a finale for the franchise, not just the series. Even if the series was subpar, it still deserved its own finale, not be validated by including outside stuff.
I like when Troi said "in those days they didn't have a ship's counselor" Yeah, 'cause maybe they were tougher! The worst part about TNG is how PC polite, nice and neat everyone is.
Well that didn't bother me. At least we know what happens to them.
Because they weren't Enterprises.
I believe so, yes.
I guess this was supposed to make us nervous and excited during the shoot-out scene rescuing Shran's daughter, a red-herring since he was saved by Archer.
Even though Denise Richards came back a number of times. The great thing about science-fiction is that nobody is really "dead." With Yar, yer first re-apparence (Yesterday's Enterprise) was one of the greatest moments of Trek history. Her subsequent reappearances as Yar's Romulan daughter were fun but corny.
Because I don't think Weaton was quitting at that point, he was already gone for years. They just knew it was the last season and wanted to send him off on a positive note.
What else could it be?
One thing that bothered me a lot is that a "historical record" portrays private, intimate conversations between the people involved. Yes, I suppose it would have been a result of compiling what the people involved said happened in interviews and memoirs, but still... creepy.
Nerd nitpick: the "cleaning up" actually took two episodes.
Riker was deciding whether or not to disobey the orders of the highest ranking officer in his current situation (the Pegasus captain, who out-ranked Picard) as opposed to doing what he felt was right (telling Picard about the cloaking device).
Tripp disobeyed Archer's command to not cooperate with the bad guys (taking them to Shran). He actually told an enemy to knock out his captain so that he could accomplish his sneaky act of sabotage.
The conncetion is there but tenuous. Both went against protocol for a greater good and following their conscience. But Riker was making a careful, tortured, deliberate decision and was dealing with competing loyalties (Riker didn't resent or hate his old Pegasus captain), while Tripp operated on instinct.
So yeah, it was bullshit.
I used to not like Rker, but upon re-watching the series a couple of years ago, he became my favorite character after the Big Three (Picard, Data, Worf, the three that most people would consider their favorites). Mainly I like him because he's the least TNG-ish character. In other circumstances, I can imagine him being less noble and pure and good.
I think axing here was their idea, not hers. So basically when an actor decides to leave, they die, but when they want to can someone, they evolve or some shit.
Re: Roddenberry/Berman
I think Roddenberry lost or gave up creative control of the franchise long before his death. I don't think he had much input in the films, and even some of his TNG ideas were questionable (Crusher is his fault). Roddenberry, like Lucas, created great universes, but both often work better when other folks help out.
If Roddenberry had seen how DS9 turned out he probably would have rolled over in his grave, but that show kicked ass.
LondosHair
Regular
Re: The end of \'Enterprise\'
mmmmmm... Denise Richards... Starfleet uniform... :drool:
The thing that pissed me off about Sela was that they barely explained her past, and she never really amounted to much of a threat at all.
Terra Prime had a spy on Enterprise (some n00b ensign we'd never seen before), who swiped DNA samples from Phlox's files. The baby was then "grown" from a combining process of some kind... and a faulty one at that.
Except that All Good Things was a MUCH better episode, and Q had a much bigger part than Combs.
That was my feeling, too...
Yes.
It was still worthless, because immediately after that scene ended, we were still nervous or whatever. Then when the aliens got onto the ship and cornered Trip & Archer, we knew this was probably it. And it was still pointless.
Denise Crosby.
mmmmmm... Denise Richards... Starfleet uniform... :drool:
The thing that pissed me off about Sela was that they barely explained her past, and she never really amounted to much of a threat at all.
Yeah, so they had him blow up at Picard and his mother, act like a total brat for 45 minutes, and then send him off on some hippie space & time trip with the Traveller. Not only that, but they bring him back for Nemesis (TNG's theatrical finale, mind you), and then cut him completely out of the movie, along with any explanation of what he'd been up to all this time, or why he was wearing a Starfleet uniform again. (On-set photos show him in one.) I suppose we'll get to see those scenes on the special edition DVD, since the initial release of Nemesis on DVD was painfully lacking in bonus features.
GKarsEye
Regular
Re: The end of \'Enterprise\'
Well, yeah, I'm just trying to think of what their mentality was, I'm not saying it was successful. Though I gotta say it's nice that they included him. Shran was great and, had Enterprise lasted (and not sucked) been this show's Q or Bester.
She did explain it- something about alternative-universe Yar being captured by some Romulan yadda-yadda... whatever.
Believe me, if I started talking about my problems with TNG it would sound like I'm less of a fan than I am.
Crusher was a punk, no good could come from his existence in the first place. His creation was a result of Roddenberry saying, "Gee golly, I sure would have liked to be on spaceship when I was 13, let's see how that looks!"
Well, yeah, I'm just trying to think of what their mentality was, I'm not saying it was successful. Though I gotta say it's nice that they included him. Shran was great and, had Enterprise lasted (and not sucked) been this show's Q or Bester.
She did explain it- something about alternative-universe Yar being captured by some Romulan yadda-yadda... whatever.
Believe me, if I started talking about my problems with TNG it would sound like I'm less of a fan than I am.
Crusher was a punk, no good could come from his existence in the first place. His creation was a result of Roddenberry saying, "Gee golly, I sure would have liked to be on spaceship when I was 13, let's see how that looks!"
2aMageing
Regular
Re: The end of \'Enterprise\'
I dunno. I think kid Crusher's inclusion not only was a strong change of pace with the uniformed Starfleet crew, but also was the spearhead of the "family on board" concept that TNG was setting up as a foil to Picard and his militarily taut ship. I think young Crusher had very definate value.
I dunno. I think kid Crusher's inclusion not only was a strong change of pace with the uniformed Starfleet crew, but also was the spearhead of the "family on board" concept that TNG was setting up as a foil to Picard and his militarily taut ship. I think young Crusher had very definate value.
Jade Jaguar
Regular
Re: The end of \'Enterprise\'
I pretty much agree with that. Wesley was often annoying, but he made the constant point that this time, they had their families with them. Supposedly, Gene R. sold TOS on the pitch that it would be "Wagon Train in space," with Wagon Train a popular TV show then. But TOS didn't really have families, like a wagon train, and STNG did, because Gene wanted it.
I pretty much agree with that. Wesley was often annoying, but he made the constant point that this time, they had their families with them. Supposedly, Gene R. sold TOS on the pitch that it would be "Wagon Train in space," with Wagon Train a popular TV show then. But TOS didn't really have families, like a wagon train, and STNG did, because Gene wanted it.
Chilli
High Treason Prevention Officer
Re: The end of \'Enterprise\'
I would have gotten that if they had displayed the Enterprise's mission as a bit less .. dangerous. I know, we always were told that Starfleet isn't the military .. but let's face it .. they were really. And also if not .. they were kind of facing mortal danger and the destruction of the ship every other week. Keeping a crew of 1000+ people including LOTS of civilians always seemed kind of odd to me. And kind of hard to justify .. not really a very safe home to bring up kids in.
But with that being like that (good thing we got to miss Federation politics, those must have been bloody), I guess having Wesley made sense. I guess it's just me .. I always found him perfectly ignorable. Only really bothered me when the episodes were about him .. other than that, looking over him was never a problem for me. Helped I guess that as young as he was, he was older than me most of the time when I was watching TNG.
Still found Jake and Nog on DS9 to be the less annoying kids though. Especially since the pure presence of kids on DS9 made a tiny bit more sense to me I guess.
That and they just weren't as annoying.
I would have gotten that if they had displayed the Enterprise's mission as a bit less .. dangerous. I know, we always were told that Starfleet isn't the military .. but let's face it .. they were really. And also if not .. they were kind of facing mortal danger and the destruction of the ship every other week. Keeping a crew of 1000+ people including LOTS of civilians always seemed kind of odd to me. And kind of hard to justify .. not really a very safe home to bring up kids in.
But with that being like that (good thing we got to miss Federation politics, those must have been bloody), I guess having Wesley made sense. I guess it's just me .. I always found him perfectly ignorable. Only really bothered me when the episodes were about him .. other than that, looking over him was never a problem for me. Helped I guess that as young as he was, he was older than me most of the time when I was watching TNG.
Still found Jake and Nog on DS9 to be the less annoying kids though. Especially since the pure presence of kids on DS9 made a tiny bit more sense to me I guess.
That and they just weren't as annoying.
Sinclair
Moderator
Re: The end of \'Enterprise\'
Families onboard a ship is stupid. I can see where GR was going with the idea, but when starships face the constant danger that they do why place all those extra needless lives in jeopardy?
Yeah, having families on DS9 made a whole lot more sense.
The only time I really started liking Wesley was towards the end of the third season when he was finally given the field rank of ensign and wore a uniform that gave him the right to be on the bridge.
Families onboard a ship is stupid. I can see where GR was going with the idea, but when starships face the constant danger that they do why place all those extra needless lives in jeopardy?
Yeah, having families on DS9 made a whole lot more sense.
The only time I really started liking Wesley was towards the end of the third season when he was finally given the field rank of ensign and wore a uniform that gave him the right to be on the bridge.
GKarsEye
Regular
Re: The end of \'Enterprise\'
Even if you could defend the idea that a ship like that could have kids at first, I think after a while of constantly getting your ass almost killed you'd say, "Hey, maybe we should leave the kiddies away from the photon torpedoes and various destroy-everything-anamolies we keep encountering."
Even if you could defend the idea that a ship like that could have kids at first, I think after a while of constantly getting your ass almost killed you'd say, "Hey, maybe we should leave the kiddies away from the photon torpedoes and various destroy-everything-anamolies we keep encountering."
A_M_Swallow
Regular
Re: The end of \'Enterprise\'
I am fairly certain that 200 years ago map-making ships did not have families on board.
I am fairly certain that 200 years ago map-making ships did not have families on board.
A_M_Swallow
Regular
Re: The end of \'Enterprise\'
Cabin boys were boys.
Officers frequently joined at 13 as midshipmen. Their mothers were not invited.
Cabin boys were boys.
Officers frequently joined at 13 as midshipmen. Their mothers were not invited.
