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The End of the Line

Re: The End of the Line

OK, Bizzaro Kosh, what did you mean by that statement?
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As I'm just getting into Crusade, i think a little explanation ought to be forthcoming from you
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I hate to say this, but if 'The end of the Line' was intended as the season one closer, it's awfully close to B5's S1 closer. Never the less, it would have made a real nail biter, on par with 'Z'ha'dum'

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" Beauty in the midst of darkness."
 
Re: The End of the Line

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Not Important:
OK, Bizzaro Kosh, what did you mean by that statement?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's Not Important.
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"Gideon says we all have things to hide."
"Does he? How unfortunate, I was hoping he'd come further than that. Well not that it isn't true of course, it's just that one simply doesn't have to say it."

"I was just trying to work out whether a comment from me right now would be most wanted or least needed."

[This message has been edited by SamGadsby (edited June 04, 2001).]
 
Re: The End of the Line

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>and the Telepath War<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, this one is over before the pilot film takes place, although I'm sure we'll hear about some of the repercussions.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 
Re: The End of the Line

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino
I'm sure we'll hear about some of the repercussions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeh like seeing Mr bester on the run or something
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Emporer Turhan-"How will this end"
Kosh-"In fire"
 
Re: The End of the Line

I hope we can see Bester again on the series (assuming there is a series made). He made such a great character.

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"Why not? Only 1 Human captain has ever survived battle with the Minbari fleet. He is behind me, you are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else."
 
The End of the Line

Warning: this will contain possible spoilers!
I've just read through two scripts a friend sent me, for ' To the ends of the earth', and 'The end of the line'.
What i'd like to know is: did JMS intend to end the show there? With Gideon gunned down?

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" Beauty in the midst of darkness."
 
Re: The End of the Line

No, it was the season 1 finale. If TNT hadn'
t screwed us we would be still watching it today, and the events of that episode would be part of the Crusade arc.
I do not mind getting screwed, but they could at least give me dinner and flowers first.


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Re: The End of the Line

man....

I'm not gonna rip on you dude..but there are way too completely uninformed people out there...damn....


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"im off to pinch a loaf"
 
Re: The End of the Line

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Not Important:
I hate to say this, but if 'The end of the Line' was intended as the season one closer, it's awfully close to B5's S1 closer.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Huh?
crazy.gif


Crysalis has Garibaldi searching Downbelow for clues to the murderer of his informant, slowly uncovering a conspiracy to kill the president, while Londo jumps into bed with the Shadows, and Delenn prepares for her transformation.

End of the Line has Gideon tracking down the Shadow hybrid and infiltrating it's home base, determined to make someone pay for the destruction of the Cerberus.

Crysalis ends with Garibaldi in a coma, Delenn in a cocoon, G'Kar out looking for the "new enemy", and a new president for the EA.

End of the Line ends with Gideon geting shot by unknown forces as he is about to reveal information that could topple the already fragile Earth Alliance.

Could you please explain how these two episodes are "awfully close"?
 
Re: The End of the Line

When I say 'awfully close', I mean the viewer is left wondering if the new season will commence with the tragic loss of a well liked major character...
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Also, if you look, both Garibaldi and Gideon are on the verge of discovering/ revealing a major earth force conspiracy. Also, both characters' names begin with a 'G'.
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" Beauty in the midst of darkness."
 
Re: The End of the Line

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> </font></td></tr></table>

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> </font></td></tr></table>

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> </font></td></tr></table>

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> </font></td></tr></table>

We don't know if Gideon gets shot, I still think that the warning from Galen may save him, but leave Dureena or Galen taking the hit. Either one would work, Dureena saved by Galen in the only way he knows how, by integrating Shadow Tech, and turning her into a Technomage, or her needing to learn to save him.

Gideon getting shot does not serve the plotline, others willing to take the hit for him shows his value as a leader, and does serve the plotline.

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Re: The End of the Line

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I hope we can see Bester again on the series (assuming there is a series made). He made such a great character.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, he would have turned up in a Crusade episode if TNT hadn't pulled the plug, so there's no reason the Rangers couldn't come across one of his hiding place. (Although it might be stretching things to have a known war criminal run up against two sets of heroes and escape both times.
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)

"End of the Line" certainly had a plot point or two in common with "Chrysalis", but in theme and tone it seems very different. Also we're comparing a script to a finished episode. Execution is everything in film, and something can be totally changed in editing. So it is possible that in actually watching the episode we'd never register the similarities.

(Anybody here have the Men in Black DVD or at least know the movie? Listen to the Barry Sonnenfeld commentary track sometime. They completely changed the plot in post production! There were originally two alien races in orbit above Earth threatening to destroy the planet, the two aliens in the restaurant scene were enemies negotiating a peace treaty, not a subject trying to help his prince escape, and the information that Tommy Lee Jones shakes out of the pug-dog was completely different.

Because all of the key scenes involved subtitles, information on data screens and the pug's dubbed dialogue, they were able to eliminate the entire second alien race subplot from the movie without major reshooting.
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)

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 
Re: The End of the Line

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hesperous:
Either one would work, Dureena saved by Galen in the only way he knows how, by integrating Shadow Tech<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why Dureena?

Gideon is the one who hates Shadow-tech, and asked Galen to leave because of it. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>and turning her into a Technomage<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's a bit of a stretch... I doubt turning someone into a full technomage would be a trivial matter, and not necessary in order to just save Gideons life.
 
Re: The End of the Line

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
(Anybody here have the Men in Black DVD or at least know the movie? Listen to the Barry Sonnenfeld commentary track sometime. They completely changed the plot in post production!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Did he say why they did it?
 
Re: The End of the Line

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Did he say why they did it?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because it made the ending too confusing and was, frankly, unnecessary. The story was too cluttered. All they really needed for the ending was one alien ship that was going to wipe out the planet if K and J didn't stop the Bug and rescue the galaxy. This is something that should have been obvious at the script stage, but in typical Hollywood fashion they actually started preproduction with a script the director knew he didn't like (it had scenes in Kansas, an undeground MIB "farm" where aliens lived and a whole bunch of other extraneous stuff), then adjusted things as they went along.

It is a good thing for Sony that the film did as well as it did at the box office, because in many ways it was an object lesson in how not to make a movie. They were on the point of shooting the ending, with a very expensive animatronic Bug, when it finally occurred to somebody that there wasn't enough action in their "action-adventure/SF-comedy." The original ending was basically a debate between Will Smith's character and the Bug.

So they decided to make it a fight scene instead, which meant they needed a Bug that could move, which, in turn meant that they had to chuck the expensive, but immobile, Bug robot and spend an extra 4 million dollars doing the whole thing in CGI over a period of 8 months.

To get this back to television in general and B5 in particular (by way of Star Trek: The late Gene Coon used to pound one idea into the heads of all the freelancers who worked on the original Trek, "Production problems are easier and cheaper to fix in the typewriter than on the stage." One of the reasons that B5 was a good as it was on the budget it had, and why it did not burn out actors and crew with 16 hour days, is that JMS learned this lesson. A few extra minutes at the planning stage of a project often saves hours at the work stage.

JMS was very good about making sure things were planned. Although there might be some last minute changes of a line here and there, most scripts were ready weeks ahead of time. The set, props and costume departments had plenty of advanced notice, so there were few surprises. The cast and crew did not have to stand around waiting for new pages to come down from the writers, with everyone on overtime. (A frequent problem on the last three Trek shows, which is one reason that B5 was such a hard sell. Nobody believed JMS and Netter when they said they could and would produce the show on the budget they proposed. Every other SF show since the original Trek had started with one budget and then quickly exceeded it, forcing the studio to add more money to each episode to keep the thing in production.)

Because the whole season was roughly outlined they could do things like shoot "Chyrsalis" in the middle of S1, giving themselves the extra time that they knew they would need for post-production. If they were going to use an expensive set in episodes 3 and 9 of a given season they had the option of shooting those shows back-to-back.

Given JMS's commitment to getting it right at the script stage, and his and Netter's experience in putting every dollar on the screen, I'd love to see what kind of B5 theatrical film they could produce with 30 or 40 million dollars to play with. I'm willing to be it would look more like 80 or 100 million, just because they would avoid so much of the waste that the rest of Hollywood just accepts as a cost of doing business.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division

joseph-demartino@att.net
 
Re: The End of the Line

I guess I'm just beginning to appreciate the skills needed to put a show or movie together. I always thought of writers as "free spirits" more than organizers. I guess one must be both in this business. How that organized side must fight with the free spirit side sometimes!

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"Why not? Only 1 Human captain has ever survived battle with the Minbari fleet. He is behind me, you are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else."
 
Re: The End of the Line

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> That's a bit of a stretch... I doubt turning someone into a full technomage would be a trivial matter, and not necessary in order to just save Gideons life. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Becoming a Technomage requires Years of training. It ain't something you just "do".

Besides, that ending would be TechnoBabble.
JMS _Hates_ technobabble.


As far as "getting it right the first time", remember that JMS has _Always_ been a FAN. He's producing the shows He always wanted to watch. He's an Expert on the subject of:
"What's Wrong With the Science Fiction on TV & Movie Screens?" IOW, JMS has learned from the mistakes of others. Trek keeps making these mistakes because the people in Charge aren't fans of Science Fiction. They're fans of "Their" Show. (And the big bucks they keep vacuuming out of the Fan's pockets.)

For years, Trek has had a reputation of not Wanting script submissions from established SF writers. Because those writers keep trying to do it Right.

For a great example of how this works, read "Harlan Ellison's The City on The Edge of Forever". It's Harlan's "tell all" book about the making of the episode that ranks as the Most Popular episode of the original Trek. (It won the Hugo in 1967, I think it's the only Trek episode that ever won a Hugo) The book contains Harlan's _Original_ script and compares it to the eviscerated version that got produced, explaining how and why they changed it.

Everyone I know who has read both versions agrees that it was Much better the way Harlan wrote it. In fact, _Harlan's version_ won the Writer's Guild of America award for Best Teleplay of 1966/67.

Note: the WGA allows writers nominated for the award to _choose_ which version of a script actually gets read by the voters because the industry changes scripts without the writer's consent so often. It's a subtle sort of revenge.
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Yes, I like cats too.
Shall we exchange Recipes?
 
Re: The End of the Line

There was a lot more to this than i first thought!
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Thanks, Joe, for putting me right again. I guess, if it had been made into a regular episode, the similarities wouldn't have been noticeable. Reading a script is different toseeingit on the screen. Even with all the visual directions, you have to draw your own interpretation of the action going on ( not that you don't have to with a programmme)
As I said, I haven't seen all the filmed 'Crusade' episodes: I've seen seven or eight all told, can't borrow them and can't afford to buy them right now so I'm working in the dark a lot. From the comments being made, there is far more to the Galen/ Dureena interaction than i realised, and a lot more to the Technomages.

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" Beauty in the midst of darkness."
 

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