The Enfalli, the Valen and the Liandra...

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 28, 2002

ok, so what does everyone think of the Enfalli from TLADIS? aside from the green beam weapons, it really doesnt look Minbari. Although it was a new (to us) design the Liandra looked minbari, even the Valen looked a little bit minbari...
...but the Enfalli didnt really strike me as looking too much like a minbari vessal. in fact it kinda looks a bit like a chubby little victory class destroyer. if so that would explain the victory design, which does not look vorlon (vorlon tech was presumably used in the main gun), human (not bulky enough) or Minbari by any standards we have seen until B5:LotR, except maybe the whole tri-winged look that minbari destroyers and frigates sport. so what are your thoughts (everyone)...?

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Who do you Serve and Who do you Trust?

channe · Feb 28, 2002

Ship designs really aren't all that important when it comes to me. I'm more concerned with the characters. The Enfalli can look squat, large, or skinny - I just want good characterization.

I always attribute it to the Minbari being culturally diverse...

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channe@[url="http://cryoterrace.tripod.com"]cryoterrace[/url] | "Last one to kill a bad guy buys the beer." -lost in space

RW7427 · Feb 28, 2002

Well, I didn't think the Liandra looked Minbari, but I kinda fell in love with it because of the crew.

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Dulann: You don't solve your problems by hitting them.
David Martel: Yeah, well, it made me feel better.

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 28, 2002

Ships are important to me

.

In any case, the Enfali was a neat design, but overall, I think the model itself was thrown together relatively quickly because it seems to lack the texture details that most ships we've seen have. It seems like the Enfali is a scout class (smaller than a WhiteStar) and that its yet another hybrid design. May combine elements of Human, Minbari, and perhaps others into a single vessel. On the other hand, it may have been a prototype concept for the Victory class. Not that it was ever meant to be a destroyer, but they threw some tech together to see if it even would be possible to do. Seeing as they are stretched thin, an extra vessel in the Ranger fleet wouldn't hurt. Even if it was just a concept ship.

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-- IceFire

Kribu · Mar 1, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by IceFire:
In any case, the Enfali was a neat design, but overall, I think the model itself was thrown together relatively quickly because it seems to lack the texture details that most ships we've seen have.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Considering that they had to make all CGI from scratch, probably not on a huge budget, and the Enfalli was going to be blown into little pieces already in the teaser part of the movie - sounds plausible.

They probably tried to do their best with everything, but if time and money were an issue, I'd imagine that more resources would have been spent to get the Liandra, the Valen and the snowflake ships well done.

It didn't bother me - but then again, I was, um, unable to see too many details on my copy of the movie.

As for the design itself - I kind of liked it. But then I must have been one of the few who kind of liked the Valen as well (of course, I'm known to like ugly things

) - it had character, and the Enfalli was an interesting ship as well.

I wonder if we'll see more of its kind in the series

or was it perhaps really a one-of-a-kind prototype. Although I doubt that, having two one-of-a-kind ships already in the pilot wouldn't look too good.

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"There are things out there beyond imagination, and I have a rather healthy imagination." - G'Kar, B5: LR
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com

Quagmire · Mar 1, 2002

You are of course assuming that the Enfali was meant to be Minbari. After all with all the new races contributing people it would not be surprising to see them contributing ships and material. Even during the first introduction of the Rangers during the B5 series Rangers used ships from other races when appropriate. While other ships may not be state of the art that does not mean they would not be of use.

My first reaction was that the Enfali looks more Drazi than anything else.

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"I was free to wallow in my own crapulence." -Mr. Burns in "Who Shot Mr. Burns Part Two"

Kribu · Mar 1, 2002

It did look somewhat Drazi, and you might well be right - but if Tirk was only the first Drazi recruit who was actually admitted into a Ranger crew, it would be kind of funny to have the Drazi (who are a bit, should we say, notoriously bad-tempered and suspicious) happily supplying the Rangers with ships.

Actually, to me the Enfalli looked something like a Drazi/Minbari hybrid.

But I thought it looked pretty Minbari inside, more so than the outer design. And it did have the three-winged look.

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"There are things out there beyond imagination, and I have a rather healthy imagination." - G'Kar, B5: LR
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com

Talathanar · Mar 2, 2002

Enfalli design I dare to argue does look Minbari. My basis is the single person fighter they used as we saw in one of the later B5 eps with Linnear in Ranger training with the weenie Minbari. Now iirc the fighters had the same style three prong set up like the Enfali. Yes it is a stretch but there are similarities if I remember what the fighters look like.

The Valen looked human with minbari additions, as it was said in the movie A brick with engines.

Liandra..looks kinda like a baby White Star. Like Enfalli it is a bit of a stretch but there are similarities in the design. It's a rather pretty ship and would be far prettier if it had the organic skin.

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**DONOTDELETE** · Mar 2, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>originally posted by DoctorGonzo
You are of course assuming that the Enfali was meant to be Minbari. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Enfalli uses green slicer type beams, so far inherently a minbari weapon, the natural assumption is that at the very least the minbari contributed much of the weaponry to the Enfalli's design. in addition to this the Enfalli does sport the whole body with three wing/extentions that the minbari frigates, fighters, and warships do.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> After all with all the new races contributing people it would not be surprising to see them contributing ships and material. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True...
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Even during the first introduction of the Rangers during the B5 series Rangers used ships from other races when appropriate. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

also true, but at the time isnt it true that the rangers did not have access to a full whitestar fleet as they did later on, the rangers were just barely making it with what little they could scrap together, seeing as how the warrior caste was trying to hold back support. with the advent of the whitestar fleet the rangers were seldom seen utilizing lesser vessals except during covert operations.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> While other ships may not be state of the art that does not mean they would not be of use.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
as it was said in TLADIS, they were using every ship they could get their hands on. however, i doubt that the enfalli was a "weak" ship as some have been so quick to assume. any ship sporting minbari beam weaponry has to have some power to it. it is only a shame we didnt get to see more of the enfalli in action, or perhaps join the battle earlier on...
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> My first reaction was that the Enfali looks more Drazi than anything else.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
although i do agree on this point, at least as far as the vessals texture goes, it really didnt strike me as looking very drazi. although it does share some design elements with other "minbari" vessals and obviosly carries some minbari tech onboard it really doesnt jump out at you as a minbari vessal. for me at least, the Liandra did, just not the enfalli. i also do not believe the minbari would be so quick to hand over tech to the drazi or narns after the events of season 5, even david's comment before the naming of names ceremony suggests some kind of penalization (or break in continuity) involving the drazi and narn after they bombed the centauri. it may only be my opinion but i do not think the minbari would want to combine their tech (which was far more advanced than drazi tech) with that of the drazi. to me it simply seams more likely that the enfalli was either a new class of scout/frigate or that it was an existing minbari vessal that we simply never saw before.

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Who do you Serve and Who do you Trust?

**DONOTDELETE** · Mar 2, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> originally posted by Talathanar:
Liandra..looks kinda like a baby White Star. Like Enfalli it is a bit of a stretch but there are similarities in the design. It's a rather pretty ship and would be far prettier if it had the organic skin.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I 100% completely agree with you! that is a first, me 100% agreeing with anyone that is. while the Liandra may slightly resemble the whitestar we must remember that it is not in the same family as the whitestars, and so probably will never get organic skin (dont the minbari use chrystaline armor on their ships? need to remember to check the b5 tech manual website) whereas the Excalibur and Victory were originally intended to have organic skin "grown" over them. i think maybe it has to do with the fact that the victory class destroyers used vorlon tech, like the whitestars, that they can support organic armor. perhaps the armor needs something in the vorlon tech to survive and work. which raises another interesting question: if the Minbari knew enough to duplicate vorlon tech in the victory class destroyers after the vorlons were gone, even arming them with the signature vorlon main gun, why cant they build more whitestars yet? perhaps they are working on that and that is where all the whitestars have been, being back-engineered...
...anyway, im getting off subject here. perhaps the enfalli was a prototype for the victory destroyers, just not as grand, more a testbed to see if human, minbari, vorlon (possibly), and possibly other techs were compatible. perhaps many were built and later included in the ranger fleet, since they needed all the ships they could get, and as state of the art as you can get is a preference no matter how desperate you are. i would certainly like to see more of the enfalli and others like it in a rangers or crusade series...

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Who do you Serve and Who do you Trust?

Demonn · Mar 2, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Godkiller:
also true, but at the time isnt it true that the rangers did not have access to a full whitestar fleet as they did later on, the rangers were just barely making it with what little they could scrap together, seeing as how the warrior caste was trying to hold back support. with the advent of the whitestar fleet the rangers were seldom seen utilizing lesser vessals except during covert operations.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JMS has said that after the Shadow War there is only about 80 Whitestars left. That means that the Rangers use ships other than Whitestars now a days. I also don't think the Minbari could reproduce the tech involved in making them, mainly Bio-Armor. If they could build more Whitestars don't you think they would. Everytime I think about this I come to the same conclusion, we need B5lr to go to a series.

We need to see more of the Ranger fleet that way we can determine where the ISA gets its ships from. Are they contributed to the ISA by members of the ISA, and then upgraded with better weapons and engines with Minbari tech. Or do they just take ships and use them as they are. Is a member of the ISA building ships for them (ex. Humans or Minbari)? Weapons wise the Emfalli looked like a Minbari ship but the color of the ship made it look like something else... the design for it makes it look like a prototye for the Victory class Destroyers, but if the Humans would have built it it would of been grey not green. We really need B5 to go to a series we need to see more Ranger ships.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>whereas the Excalibur and Victory were originally intended to have organic skin "grown" over them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As far as I know that isn't true it may be written at the Tech-Manual but they don't know that for sure, it's a fan site. The Victory Destroyers use an improved Minbari armor... I don't know why they built them that way but they did. I really don't think they can build any more ships with Bio-Armor because if they could I'm sure they would build more Whitestars. Like I said earlier we need a series to find these thing out. I wrote an email to JMS about this a while ago but he probably never even read it.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>perhaps they are working on that and that is where all the whitestars have been, being back-engineered...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably not but that is a good idea if they have the Whitestars and they don't know how to reproduce things like Bio-Armor they should be able to take a Whitestar apart and find out how they did it in the first place. Why the hell don't they just make some more Whitestars and a few larger vessels with Bio-Armor that would be alot easier than all the crap they're going through now. It just might be a possibility that they have to grow the Bio-Armor and maybe they don't know how to do that. I'm gonna stop now thinking about this is ticking me off, it doesn't have to be so complicated.

The last time I tried to post here my computer froze up just before I clicked the submit reply button and I lost everything, that ticked me off. So I got to start all over. This post isn't as long as the one I was going to post before but I think I said everything I was going to say in the other one. I think about it like this, we'll get a series and then we'll all get the answers that we're after... It's just gonna take some time.

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Shai Alyt of the Warrior Caste
war-demon@b5fan.b5lr.com
"War is life and death is the only true peace."
A proud member of the Wind Sword Clan.

bakana · Mar 2, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> if they have the Whitestars and they don't know how to reproduce things like Bio-Armor they should be able to take a Whitestar apart and find out how they did it in the first place. Why the hell don't they just make some more Whitestars and a few larger vessels with Bio-Armor that would be alot easier than all the crap they're going through now. It just might be a possibility that they have to grow the Bio-Armor and maybe they don't know how to do that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At the time of this movie, the Minbari are still rebuilding their Cities after their civil war.
Paying off the debts they ran up during the Shadow War.
And finanacing the startup of the Alliance.

Building a new fleet of starships is Expensive and they are stretched thin.

We know from Sleeping in Light that they not only built more Whitestars, but also developed and built the Bluestar class personal runabouts that Sheridan used for his "Sunday Drive".

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

Demonn · Mar 2, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bakana:
At the time of this movie, the Minbari are still rebuilding their Cities after their civil war.
Paying off the debts they ran up during the Shadow War.
And finanacing the startup of the Alliance.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never thought of it that way, but in B5lr it's been about three yrs since the Shadow War and the Minbari Civil War wouldn't they be done rebuilding their cities yet. They must really be perfectionists, can't sign off on anything until they get it really right.

What dept from the Shadow War? How the heck did they get into dept?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Building a new fleet of starships is Expensive and they are stretched thin.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can understand that, but they should at least start on the construction, build them one or two at a time, maybe they allready are doing this and we just don't know. Each and every Whitestar out there makes a difference.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>We know from Sleeping in Light that they not only built more Whitestars, but also developed and built the Bluestar class personal runabouts that Sheridan used for his "Sunday Drive".
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We don't know that they built more all we can do is asume that they are still around. The Bluestars didn't have Bio-Armor they looked like they had the normal Minbari armor.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by IceFire:
Delen said something in Season 5 to the effect that the Minbari government would not commit the resources to building a new fleet of WhiteStars. Which is why the Excalibur was a Earth contract with Minbari and Vorlon tech.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't remember that but it sounds familiar so eventually I'll look through my tapes. If this is true though it means that the minbari atually can reproduce Bio-Armor they just don't want to, or as bakana said they can't at the moment. But then why didn't they give that tech to the EA... maybe they think it's to much of a tech gain for Earth... or maybe Earth couldn't produce it by them selves. I really want a series. Please I really need this.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>If they can rebuild a Vorlon weapon, I see no reason why they couldn't have build the semi-organic hull for more WhiteStars either. I think the primary issue is resources rather than capability.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True dat... *sings*
"I can see clearly now the rain is gone."
*smacks himself*
Why did I just do that? I hate that song.

If this is the situation for the Minbari I hope they can get it together soon so they can produce some bigger and better kick butt ships for the ISA. That would be something cool to see in B5lr sometime around the second or third season. I know we'll get a series, I just know we will. *thinks positive thouhgts*

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Shai Alyt of the Warrior Caste
war-demon@b5fan.b5lr.com
"War is life and death is the only true peace."
A proud member of the Wind Sword Clan.

Talathanar · Mar 2, 2002

I have to agree that we'll probably never see an organic skin for Liandra (sadly cause that was DAMNED cool stuff).

For some reason in A Call to Arms I want to remember them saying something about the destroyers going off to Minbar for 'completion'. Sadly I don't remember what the completion was but they use that same crysaline armor that most minbari ships do. Only logical conclusion would be the organic skin.

Godkiller, I like your reason for the lack of organic skin support. It makes perfect sense that the White Stars and the Victory destroeyers were created for it compared to having it added which would happen with Liandra.

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**DONOTDELETE** · Mar 3, 2002

Delen said something in Season 5 to the effect that the Minbari government would not commit the resources to building a new fleet of WhiteStars. Which is why the Excalibur was a Earth contract with Minbari and Vorlon tech. If they can rebuild a Vorlon weapon, I see no reason why they couldn't have build the semi-organic hull for more WhiteStars either. I think the primary issue is resources rather than capability.

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-- IceFire

bakana · Mar 3, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I never thought of it that way, but in B5lr it's been about three yrs since the Shadow War and the Minbari Civil War wouldn't they be done rebuilding their cities yet. They must really be perfectionists, can't sign off on anything until they get it really right. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, let's use a Real Life example.
It's been almost 6 months since the WTC attack.
NYC is still sifting through the rubble for bodies. It'll probably take another 6 months (or more) to finish.

And that's only one small area.
What if they had lost the entire Wall Street district??

There are cities in Europe that still have scars from WW2 over 60 Years later.

The Vietnam War has been over for 25 years.
They are still getting their economy back on it's feet.

Before you can rebuild, you have to find the Money someplace.
When you have dozens of cities in need of rebuilding and the economy Already In Debt. it's going to take more than just a couple years.

Going into the Shadow war, the Minbari & Earth were still paying off debts from the Earth Minbari War.
10 Years after.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

**DONOTDELETE** · Mar 4, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Originally posted by Godkiller
perhaps they are working on that and that is where all the whitestars have been, being back-engineered...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

or perhaps the minbari could not afford to build a new fleet of whitestars at that time, after all, they were in the middle of rebuilding their cities on minbar AND rebuilding their main fleet after losses suffered in the shadow war, minbari civil war, and other smaller conflicts. we do know eventually they built the bluestars, although i dont really think the bluestar is so much a personal runabout as it was a personal runabout FOR SHERIDAN, they look to me to be more of a light frigate/gunboat class ship, while the whitestars were more like gunboat/light cruisers. assuming the excalibur makes it through the entire run of Crusade's story, and assuming that the alliance continues with construction of Victory class destroyers, rather than coming up with something else entirely, the rangers, and in turn the alliance, would have their dreadnaut/destroyer in the victory class vessals. this leaves open all sorts of room for smaller support vessals, which is what i think the bluestar is meant to be, considering it can obviously support a crew.

something i would certainly like to see WHEN Crusade returns or if we get a rangers series is the Hel'zha fighters, though i dont believe TDITCOS ever specified if they ever went into mass production or not. we certainly never saw them in B5, but just thinking about a whitestar type fighter...
...wishfull thinking

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Who do you Serve and Who do you Trust?

**DONOTDELETE** · Mar 4, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> originally posted by WarDemon:
JMS has said that after the Shadow War there is only about 80 Whitestars left. That means that the Rangers use ships other than Whitestars now a days. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

based on what we saw during TLADIS i cannot agree more. NOW the ranger do use ships other than just the whitestars. and while humans may outnumber the minbari in the ranks of the rangers, the rangers still seem quite dependant on minbari charity as far as technology, armaments, and ships go. even in Crusade we saw the Excalibur armed with thunderbolts instead of Nials. even if the thunderbolts were only there on account of the earthforce crew and the excalibur being on loan, i think based on the launch system that the excalibur was meant to be compatible with the fighters of other member races, thus demonstrating a certain dependance, and flexibility, on the part of the rangers upon races other than the minbari for armaments.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I also don't think the Minbari could reproduce the tech involved in making them, mainly Bio-Armor. If they could build more Whitestars don't you think they would. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

this i must dissagree with. if the minbari and the humans could replicate the main guns used on vorlon vessals (which i remind you all are organic lifeforms themselves) on the excalibur (using apparently non-organic or only semi organic tech) than why not the bio armor as well. if i recall it was in ACTA that it was said that the Excalibur and Victory had originally been schedualled to stop over on minbar for completion, and i think it was in the novelization of that movie that it was specifically said that the "completion" was the grafting of bio-armor. although i cannot quote pages until i dig out my copy i am reasonably sure of this. that and the novelization of ACTA is, like the others, considered canon. in addition, if the alliance could build the bluestars, with apparently organic armor only 20 years later, why not the whitestars?
i think the reluctance to build more whitestars is based more on budget and priorities than on ability to build or availability of tech and resources.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Everytime I think about this I come to the same conclusion, we need B5lr to go to a series. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I could not agree more!

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Who do you Serve and Who do you Trust?

The Enfalli, the Valen and the Liandra...

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