The "Firewall" Thread (Spoilers)

Lyta · Apr 21, 2002

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

Originally posted by PsionTen:
I guess I saw it differently, because it didn't seem to me that they were trying to save TM at all, but rather doing everything they could to keep Quantrell from talking.

Maybe but the comment from Chen about not being able to stop the "team" when he was on the phone with Ezekiel and the surprise of Quantrell that Ezekiel was not there to resue him lead me to believe that they might not be TM traitors.

Also, as for stupid vs strange actions ... people do unpredictable things in times of stress and crisis. I thought that was the point (or one of them) that JMS was trying to make.

PsionTen · Apr 21, 2002

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> He would have rather had all the adults die and let the children carry on than to let men like Quantrell have their cold-hearted ways.
<hr></blockquote>

The only problem with that is that he had no idea that the Big Death would come to TM as soon as it did. For all he knew, he was leaving his son in the care of an evil manical madman indefinately. The fact that Marcus was a prodigy would have worried me even more because he had to know that Quantrell would have taken advantage of him eventually.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Yes, it was stupid for that man to sneak out for some watches but it just proves how stupid humans can be. He obviously didn't take the Big Death too seriously otherwise he would have never ventured out. <hr></blockquote>

As I said, it was somewhat poetic but it still goes against all common sense and reason for me.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>As for the books of Jeremiah and Ezekiel in the bible, check out some quotes that Channe pulled for our newsletter a few weeks back:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jeremiah-news/message/9
<hr></blockquote>

I read the quotes but I was actually looking for something more substantive.... similar to the connections that people draw between B5 and LotR. I'm not sure that they even exist, but the only way to find out is to bite the bullet and read the books from end to end, which is what I'll do.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Maybe but the comment from Chen about not being able to stop the "team" when he was on the phone with Ezekiel and the surprise of Quantrell that Ezekiel was not there to resue him lead me to believe that they might not be TM traitors. <hr></blockquote>

I'm not sure that they are TM traitors. It could be that they were looking out for the best interests of TM; that they only wanted Quantrell dead; that they are moles planted into TM by VS; or that they are moles planted into VS by TM; or something else altogether. We probably won't know for sure until next season, it at all.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr> Also, as for stupid vs strange actions ... people do unpredictable things in times of stress and crisis. I thought that was the point (or one of them) that JMS was trying to make. <hr></blockquote>

I'm not sure, but I think it ties into the understated theme that I've noticed lurking beneath every episode so far -- morality, or the lack of it. In a way, I think he's saying that the moral choices we make have far-reaching consequences that we can't even begin to forsee. I wouldn't at all be surprised to find out that when this series is said and done that it would be possible to trace nearly every tragedy we've seen back to a single single moral choice made by a single character ... like pushing over a single domino and watching thousands fall in its wake.

channe · Apr 21, 2002

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

THINGS I NOTICE ABOUT FIREWALL, IN SEQUENTIAL ORDER, AS I WATCH:

- Jeremiah made a conscious choice to quit prefacing his letters with "dear." It's now just Dad. Does he find out something about his father in this ep?

- The sequence with the girl "They kidnapped my sister!" sounded like it could come from a comic book. That's ok, though. Dramatic license is good.

- A helicopter? Where the frell do the people in this world get a helicopter? Could these people be the fabled Valhalla Sector?

- "Nothing's the same anymore." I know some people will bust on JMS for using the same line within two shows. I won't. I like that line, and I think it expresses everything both Sinclair and Jeremiah were feeling at that time, without being a rehash.

- "This guy is old." Once again, Kurdy speaks very much within his milieu. I like how the script and the actor work very well to "keep it real."

- Pause your VCR when you get to the NORAD sign. Read what it has to say. Very enlightening, as to NORAD's use... a lot about contamination...

- "Go back to the lab, Dr. Alexander." Marcus' father? And there's a shot of what has to be young Marcus. If young Marcus is there, why isn't the wife?

- This episode pulls out the big guns right at the beginning, doesn't it?

- Li's loyalty is either going to be very useful - or a damned liability.

- Damn. Damn. Damn. Thunder Mountain isn't gonna be overrun by starving thirtysomethings. It's going to be overrun by military men from the past. This is actually really painful!

(stop for 45 minutes while fire alarm in building goes off. Fire trucks come. Discover that some wiseass pulled the alarm on the second floor. Freeze my cute rear off....)

- Marcus was a computer geek when he was a kid. I wonder if he was social. That, right there, is a defining factor of Marcus' personality, and it makes sense...

- The news anchor's hair. Look at the news anchor's hair. This is a dying society. I wonder if the news anchor's children ever got the note. That just tears me up - what is he sorry for?! What did the letter say?

- Valhalla Sector vs. Thunder Mountain. Old vs. New. Marcus vs. Quantrell. That could be trouble. Or is it? We'll see. We thought it was Shadows vs. Vorlons, didn't we?

- Flawed? Eccentric? I think Erin has too much trust in Marcus... way too much trust. A brilliant mind often crumbles in the face of a need for revenge. And that's a fact.

- Merry Freakin' Christmas. Sometimes I think Jeremiah and Kurdy are the only ones with a head on in Thunder Mountain, the only ones who can really connect between the tech they found in Thunder Mountain and the outside world. That's going to be very important.

- Meaghan Lee Rose. Um, maybe I'm reading too much into this, but remember the Tarot card in "City of Roses?" It had a rose on it... the death card had a rose on it... who else thinks that Marcus is gonna be making some nasty decisions?

- Quantrell. Cantrell.

- "Virus is spread by skin contact." I wonder if this is true. One of the things about the Black Death is that they had all sorts of ideas on how the virus was spread. None of them were true, of course, and that's why a lot of people died. Sound familiar?

- "The bad thing is that life persists... and this virus is a form of life..." Is his father a prophet? Is the writer a genius? Oh dear!

- This is going to be interesting. It's obvious Dr. Alexander raised Markus right. It's obvious that Markus saw the complete, utter, and true human love and compassion that existed between him and Jean. It's understandable why he's going to go apeshit on Quantrell as soon as he can.

- THE DUDE WITH THE EARRING! THAT'S HOW THE VIRUS GOT INTO THUNDER MOUNTAIN!!

- Li and Ezekiel are working for the same people. I knew there was something shifty about Lee. I bet you anything Li and Ezekiel are working for an outside source. Against Markus and Jeremiah remains yet to be seen, but I think so... Li's too much of a Markus asskisser and now I know why. So Markus doesn't suspect him of foul play...

- Valhalla Sector is what I thought it was. The place where old heroes go when they die. But they're not dead, are they...?

- It's a treat to see Alex. Ezekiel is one freaky mutha, and I really want to know who he's working for.

- "We're gonna build a world based on power." Oh my God. I don't think there are any other words that can send shivers up my spine like those can... no words. Those words - that philosophy - has ushered in the most terrible years our world has ever known...

- And to add to the problem, Jeremiah *wants* war...

- Ok. Let's put this together. Ezekiel has two fathers. He told Jeremiah that they were brothers. Maybe he considers Jeremiah's father - his father. It's obvious he works for Valhalla Sector. But, if so, why did he just frag Quantrell? And if Li's associated with Ezekiel it means he's associated with Valhalla Sector which means that VS has a man on the inside, unless Li's part of a section within VS working against VS, but if he was, WHY DIDN'T HE TELL MARKUS!?

- I'm believing more in Markus now. He's winning me over. This is bad. Because I know I'm gonna get burned later. Or am I? Damn you, JMS.

- Meaghan talks like JMS did when trying to get us all to watch Firewall. Just hinting...

- Maybe Valhalla Sector's not ready to move, either... if the choppers turned back...

- And what about next week? The last thing I want to see after this is a standalone!

channe · Apr 21, 2002

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

And maybe... just maybe...

...there were children raised within VS - and Ezekiel is one of those children. Raised by Mr. Jeremiah's Father.

But how does that explain Li Chen?

**DONOTDELETE** · Apr 21, 2002

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

LOL great thread. Its defintely a JMS type thread. Its like a baseball game. Everyone trying to guess whats going to happen. Trying to connect the dots. JMS threw us a fastball in the first big plot episode pushing the story ahead a lot, and then last few episodes this season JMS will probably throw a big curve that has us saying "What the hell just happened". Then next season he will throw a slider, and so on. Thats his writing style, and thats why i love this show. Never take anything at face value.

My idea of the genetic stuff was of course a opinion, but you never know. It could be true

capt

**DONOTDELETE** · Apr 21, 2002

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Channe quoted:
"The bad thing is that life persists... and this virus is a form of life..." <hr></blockquote> I have one problem with the whole virus storyline. Perhaps it has something to do with reading too much biology.

First

We cannot assume that a virus would start infecting people only after a certain age. There is no biological mechanism to make this possible. There is no biological mechanism to make a virus stay within this age range. Mutation is random. It would quickly mutate to infect younger people. After some time, it would have mutated to infect everyone.

Second

If we assume that (in some miraculous way) a virus only infects people in a certain age group, the dose of the virus contacted would increase gradually as people approach that age group. Gradual increase is the best way to create resistance. Symptoms should appear as gradually increasing stress and strain. People who have "grown into the Big Death" would exhibit signs of great resistance. Adults who have not contacted it before would succumb easily.

Third

Even if we would assume that the virus always infects, but starts killing only after a certain age, we would face the same logical inconsistencies. With random mutations, there is nothing to ensure that killing effects would stay within this age group. Also, immune systems would have many years to familiarize itself with this virus, and develop resistance.

By the time the virus would gradually start killing, the immune system would be ready to manufacture countless custom-designed antibodies. Finding increased traces of virus antigens, it would immediately know which antibodies to produce. It would quite frankly crush the malfunctioning virus.

Fourth

Viruses in contact with their host population will always, without exception, gradually grow milder and more infectious. It is not a stable evolutionary strategy to sleep within reach of the host immune system, and then suddenly try killing the host. You would get outcompeted by your fellow viruses who make the host cough and sneeze, but rarely kill.

Those fellow viruses would spread faster than you, but their legacy would be an immune system prepared against you too. Hence you as a virus would have to go along, be a nice little virus and make your host cough and sneeze, as soon as you manage to infect.

Otherwise you would get wiped out. Perhaps in centuries, but wiped out. Deadly viruses are usually new viruses. As time passes, they will become milder and people will develop resistance. Evolution does not favour sudden death. Evolution favours the common cold.

---------

Due to the aforementioned considerations, I would have to conclude that this, unlike the Markab plague, is a very unrealistic virus. I am having a hard time coping with a storyline which ignores biological realities. If anyone can find a weak point in my arguments, please exploit it and show me my error. I would appreciate it.

Kraig · Apr 21, 2002

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>- Maybe Valhalla Sector's not ready to move, either... if the choppers turned back...<hr></blockquote>

Or maybe when the Major's transponder quit working the rescuers thought the major had succumbed to the big death or that his environmental suit had run out of oxygen. Either way the Major would have to be quarantined. The military may have orders not to attempt a rescue and return to base. They would probably want to prevent the possibility of infecting others at VS.

gangster · Apr 21, 2002

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

Agree with your conclusions about the virus. Possibly blood-type specific (a real stretch) but no way to make "age specific."

Kraig · Apr 21, 2002

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>We cannot assume that a virus would start infecting people only after a certain age. There is no biological mechanism to make this possible. There is no biological mechanism to make a virus will stay within this age range. Viruses mutate randomly. This virus would quickly mutate to infect younger people. After some time, it would have mutated to infect everyone.<hr></blockquote>

The virus could reside in the <a target="_blank" href=http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/g2603/0002/2603000216/p1/article.jhtml> Eccrine </a> sweat glands. These develope during puberty. That would explain how it is transmitted by skin contact and only to those who have reached the age of puberty. Also the big death could have been made in a lab as a biological weapon that may have run amok.

Recoil · Apr 21, 2002

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by Lennier:
First

We cannot assume that a virus would start infecting people only after a certain age. There is no biological mechanism to make this possible. There is no biological mechanism to make a virus stay within this age range. Mutation is random. It would quickly mutate to infect younger people. After some time, it would have mutated to infect everyone.<hr></blockquote>
I don't think its been said that its "age specific." In the opening credits Jeremiah says that it killed everyone "over the age of innocence" which, to me, means puberty. That isn't a specific age for anyone, but it roughly happens around the same time within a 2 year span.

When Quantrell mentioned that in a few days anyone over the age of 13 would be dead, I think he was speaking generally. 13 is roughly the age puberty sets in, I dont think that was meant to be that literally everyone over 13 lives. I do believe it was supposed to be a puberty thing.

**DONOTDELETE** · Apr 21, 2002

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

Plus-minus some years would be very age-specific.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by Kraig:
The virus could reside in the Eccrine sweat glands. These develope during puberty. That would explain how it is transmitted by skin contact and only to those who have reached the age of puberty.<hr></blockquote>

For the contemporaries of Jeremiah, the virus exists in their environment all the time. They would have contacted it already before. Via breathing or wounds. The immune system would already be familiar with it. As the virus would gradually start infecting whatever cells it infects, the host would counter it by mobilizing already existing mechanisms of immunity, and developing new ones.

If the host would win, nothing would happen (people who contacted the Big Death as children would be immune to it as adults). If the virus would prevail, people in the age group of Jeremiah would get increasingly sick, and then die. Adults contacting the virus without prior exposure would die more quickly.

Naturally in case of Eccrine sweat glands, is is questionable if anyone would die at all. The glands would become the focus of an immune reaction, get inflammations and other troubles, and eventually stop working. People would live on. They did it before puberty. They would do it after.

Besides, some people would have mutations in the genes which control the development of the cells which the virus infects. Those people, many of them aduts, would have remained unaffected and survived the outbreak.

While all this is going on, the virus would be in constant mutation to search for better ways of existance. It would learn to target more commonly occurring markers, develop different strains and soon enough know how to infect pretty much everyone.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Also the big death could have been made in a lab as a biological weapon that may have run amok.<hr></blockquote> It probably was. But artificial viruses would use the same principles as natural viruses. Unless we are talking about the Shadows. Now their biological weapons might truly exhibit capabilities currently unknown, due to not being viruses in the strict sense, but rather self-replicating nanomachines.

**DONOTDELETE** · Apr 21, 2002

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by Recoil:
I don't think its been said that its "age specific." In the opening credits Jeremiah says that it killed everyone "over the age of innocence" which, to me, means puberty. That isn't a specific age for anyone, but it roughly happens around the same time within a 2 year span.<hr></blockquote> Hence there should have been people in between, who did not fully exhibit the characteristics targeted by the virus. Who suffered sligthly from the disease but lived on. Either kids of the age groups which were left "in between" or adults with physiological / genetic differences.

**DONOTDELETE** · Apr 21, 2002

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

I still think this virus wasnt natural and that could explain a lot of what you are talking about. It was probably a experient gone totally wrong. Scientists are always trying to make things tailor made for certain people. Why cant they try it with virus's

capt

Recoil · Apr 21, 2002

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by Lennier:
Hence there should have been people in between, who did not fully exhibit the characteristics targeted by the virus. Who suffered sligthly from the disease but lived on. Either kids of the age groups which were left "in between" or adults with physiological / genetic differences.<hr></blockquote>
I'm not sure I follow you here. If it is a puberty thing, there probably WERE people who were just barely infected if they were going through the initial stages of puberty. However if they were already infected, then as they grew and matured, the virus would have killed them off, so they aren't around anymore.

That seems to fit what has happened, and since we know NOTHING of the real nature of the virus, it is hard to come to more conclusions than that.

channe · Apr 21, 2002

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

It was definitely puberty. Remember Theo's little speech about girls knowing right off the bat - and guys not knowing until a few things had happened.

I agree with your conclusions about the virus, Lennier. I'm not a biologist per se, but I have studied up a little bit, and something just doesn't fit. At this point, I'm allowing JMS the benefit of the doubt, as:

-if the virus is still in the world, Jeremiah and the others have really been breathing it, touching it, for quite some time. Is it possible that the virus took that long to mutate?

I'm really interested, because it would obviously not be in Valhalla Sector's, or Thunder Mountain's, or ANYBODY's best interest to reintroduce the virus. So is it happening on its own? Lennier?

I wonder if the show has advisors from the CDC or something similar. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif Hey, anybody want to ask JMS that on rastb5m for me? I can only read, not post.

**DONOTDELETE** · Apr 21, 2002

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by Recoil:
I'm not sure I follow you here. If it is a puberty thing, there probably WERE people who were just barely infected if they were going through the initial stages of puberty. However if they were already infected, then as they grew and matured, the virus would have killed them off, so they aren't around anymore. <hr></blockquote>
I'm not sure I follow you here. As they grew, matured and eventually died, they should have passed the virus on to others who also grew, matured and became infectable. If people in Jeremiah's time are not dying in their teens, it means that they have developed resistance, or the virus has grown milder. Because there is absolutely no way (in an epidemological sense) how it could have "gone away". Since the devastating initial wave, it must have always been there.

Now in such a case, it has already had several years to evolve - away from the initial bioweapon, towards a natural virus. Considering the huge population and short generation time of viruses, especially during large epidemics, this means countless trillions of virus life cycles. If the only barrier is age (something gradual, with nothing to present an evolutionary barrier) some strains should be discovering the younger "customer base".

channe · Apr 21, 2002

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by Lennier:
If the only barrier is age (something gradual, with nothing to present an evolutionary barrier) some strains should be discovering the younger "customer base".<hr></blockquote>

I think that is what is happening...

**DONOTDELETE** · Apr 21, 2002

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

After some consideration, I have started to suspect this.

People like Jeremiah, those who have grown up in a contaminated world.... they actually have some resistance. The virus might harm them, but no longer kill. Already during the epidemic, it adapted to their presence to ensure its continuation. It has been adapting ever since. Having plentiful time, their immune systems have countered the move and know how to defend. For them it has become the common cold. Even the original strain (probably a biological weapon) would not threaten them like it once threatened adults.

For people who have lived in isolated shelters, and very possibly those who live in the Valhalla Sector, this common cold is a deadly plague. If they planned to rule the world without opposition, they will find that their own weapon has decided to stop them. Living weapons choose their own way.

If they simply tried to preserve order and society, they will find that interacting with new societies threatens their life. In both cases, they would try finding ways to bridge the gap. To gain an immunity similar to those who contact the virus every day.

If the Valhalla Sector (or some faction within it) has little respect for life of others, that would explain kidnapping some people for experiments. To try finding a way to live with the Big Death, which has obviously decided to stay.

On a scarier note, there would be one way to kill the Big Death. Killing everyone who survived it. If the Valhalla Sector does consist of people too hungry for power, they might try. If they would have the technical capability, they would do great harm. But they would fail. Because all living weapons have a mind of their own, and any new virus would behave like the old one, only more slowly as long-distance travel has stopped.

Lyta · Apr 21, 2002

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

Channe, that was really fun reading your reactions to the episode as they happened. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Damn. Damn. Damn. Thunder Mountain isn't gonna be overrun by starving thirtysomethings. It's going to be overrun by military men from the past. This is actually really painful!

Did you really expect it to be run by someone other than the military? /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif

I wonder if the news anchor's children ever got the note. That just tears me up - what is he sorry for?! What did the letter say?

Oh, I almost forgot about this ... maybe I should add it to my list of questions? God, that scene was heart wrenching.

Meaghan Lee Rose. Um, maybe I'm reading too much into this, but remember the Tarot card in "City of Roses?" It had a rose on it... the death card had a rose on it... who else thinks that Marcus is gonna be making some nasty decisions? 

Maybe, but it does make me wonder if there will be some secret/hidden meaning to roses later ...

Quantrell. Cantrell

Hey, I never noticed that before. Maybe that is because I am not as obsessed about Sarah as you are? /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif Anyway, I have noticed that JMS tends to reuse names or variations of them.

"Virus is spread by skin contact." I wonder if this is true. One of the things about the Black Death is that they had all sorts of ideas on how the virus was spread. None of them were true, of course, and that's why a lot of people died. Sound familiar?

I don't know maybe it is true, after all they are scientists and should be able to figure out how the disease spreads. Then again, if it is an engineered disease (which I am assuming at this point) maybe they only -think- they know about it. I just don't know if we have been given enough information about the BigD ... only hints really.

THE DUDE WITH THE EARRING! THAT'S HOW THE VIRUS GOT INTO THUNDER MOUNTAIN!!

Hehe, you didn't anticipate that result when he started talking about leaving and looting from the dead? /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif

And what about next week? The last thing I want to see after this is a standalone!

I know me too but the description for next week doesn't show much promise. /ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif

gangster · Apr 21, 2002

Re: The \"Firewall\" Thread (Spoilers)

My guess for Valhalla Sector kidnappings is the researchers there know the "children" have developed an immunity and are hoping this fact will lead them to cure or vaccine. Desperate people have little, or no, regard for other's rights or lives.

The "Firewall" Thread (Spoilers)

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