"The Gathering" Question

[Matthew]

\"The Gathering\" Question

I was re-watching The Gathering last night and I caught a line I'd not really noticed before. When G'Kar is talking to Delenn (right before the gravity ring scence) G'Kar mentions that the Minbari are the oldest of the 5 federations and the most advanced.

I take that to mean older than even the Vorlons -- but doesn't the series come to tell us the the Vorlons are older than the Minbari? Surely if the Minbari were more advanced, the Shadows & Vorlons would have been no match for them.

What this line ever explained?

 

[Jan]

Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

The key there is "five federations'. Remember, Kosh is the last of the five ambassadors to be arriving. The 5 are:

Earth
Centauri
Narn
Minbar
Vorlon

...of which the Minbari are the most advanced in theory. Of course nobdoy knows much about the Vorlons...
Jan

 

[Sindatur]

Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

Hm...Well, that one got me then, because I thought that was excluding the Vorlons no one knew anything about and the fifth federation was the League of Non-Aligned worlds.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

Of course nobdoy knows much about the Vorlons...

I always assumed this was the heart of the situation for that comment. With so little known about the Vorlons by anyone, those like the Narn who knew more about the Minbari than they knew about the Vorlons would probably see the Minbari as being more advanced than everyone else around just out of pure not knowing.

Of course, it could also possibly be seen as G'Kar telling Delenn that the Minbari are the most powerful of those around because he's trying to butter her up in his attempts to negotiate an alliance between their two governments.

And then a possible real world explanation might be that it was a line that could have used a bit of revision as the story of "The Gathering" changed. As we've known for a while, though have known few details about, and as has been brought up again recently with jms's announcment that the scripts are going to be sold in trade paperback for all us eager fans to be able to get ahold of, "The Gathering" used to be quite different than what it turned out to be. It had things in it that didn't ever get put into what was eventually created, Kosh's lifemate for example. Take the early B5 designs as another piece that might make this possible real world explanation have some more validity. On that early B5 brochure describing the basics of the show, the Vorlons were described as: "The secretive Vorlons are a group not to be trusted. A massive power struggle is going on among their upper echelons where advancement is only accomplished by assassination. They seek to eliminate the Earth Alliance and solidify themselves as heads of the Empire." That description makes me think that the Vorlons might were going to have a different place in the story than as the First One Lord of Order that they became.

 

[Jan]

Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

That description makes me think that the Vorlons might were going to have a different place in the story than as the First One Lord of Order that they became.

Yes, indeed. There was something else...I think in the treatment, that specified that the Vorlons were quite warlike.

Jan

 

[Springer]

Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

And then a possible real world explanation might be that it was a line that could have used a bit of revision as the story of "The Gathering" changed. As we've known for a while, though have known few details about, and as has been brought up again recently with jms's announcment that the scripts are going to be sold in trade paperback for all us eager fans to be able to get ahold of, "The Gathering" used to be quite different than what it turned out to be. It had things in it that didn't ever get put into what was eventually created, Kosh's lifemate for example. Take the early B5 designs as another piece that might make this possible real world explanation have some more validity. On that early B5 brochure describing the basics of the show, the Vorlons were described as: "The secretive Vorlons are a group not to be trusted. A massive power struggle is going on among their upper echelons where advancement is only accomplished by assassination. They seek to eliminate the Earth Alliance and solidify themselves as heads of the Empire." That description makes me think that the Vorlons might were going to have a different place in the story than as the First One Lord of Order that they became.

I'm positve I've heard JMS state that that description of the Vorlons was made-up for the TV execs who were going to decide whether to commission the show, reasoning that they might not quite 'get' the notion of a timeless species billions of years old, and the idealogical nature of their disagreement with the Shadows. I don't think JMS ever seriously intended to have the Vorlons like that.

Regarding the original question, I'll have to rewatch the Gathering, but from memory I thought G'Kar said that the Minbari were "one of the oldest of the five federations" , not necessarily "the oldest" but I might be wrong.

 

[vacantlook]

Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

Regarding the original question, I'll have to rewatch the Gathering, but from memory I thought G'Kar said that the Minbari were "one of the oldest of the five federations" , not necessarily "the oldest" but I might be wrong.

G'Kar indeed says that the Minbari are "THE oldest" in that scene.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

G'Kar does describe the Minbari as the oldest of the five federations, which makes sense given how little the other races are supposed to know about the Vorlons at that point.

As for the various permutations of the story - I think it is clear from the early publicty materials that JMS made a lot of changes between the first pitch and the final series - including between the pilot and the series. I don't think the description of the Vorlons was some kind of smoke screen, nor do I recall JMS calling it that. If you read the entire "Early B5" page you'll see that many elements that later ended up being part of Centauri society were originally ascribed to the Vorlons. And in his recent discussion of the upcoming script book JMS confirms that Kosh's mate was part of the early drafts of The Gathering, which also suggests that the early pitch materials were close to his initial conception of the series. (That there were ancient forces in the background I don't doubt, but the Vorlons may not originally have been intended as one of them, or he may have had another notion of how to handle them. Certainly the fact that we never saw Kosh's "hand" or anything like it - and the disappearance of the Minbiar "Rings of Power" - suggest that elments of the series were considerably retooled during the gap between pilot and series.)

Regards,

Joe

 

[Springer]

Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

G'Kar does describe the Minbari as the oldest of the five federations, which makes sense given how little the other races are supposed to know about the Vorlons at that point.

As for the various permutations of the story - I think it is clear from the early publicty materials that JMS made a lot of changes between the first pitch and the final series - including between the pilot and the series. I don't think the description of the Vorlons was some kind of smoke screen, nor do I recall JMS calling it that. If you read the entire "Early B5" page you'll see that many elements that later ended up being part of Centauri society were originally ascribed to the Vorlons. And in his recent discussion of the upcoming script book JMS confirms that Kosh's mate was part of the early drafts of The Gathering, which also suggests that the early pitch materials were close to his initial conception of the series. (That there were ancient forces in the background I don't doubt, but the Vorlons may not originally have been intended as one of them, or he may have had another notion of how to handle them. Certainly the fact that we never saw Kosh's "hand" or anything like it - and the disappearance of the Minbiar "Rings of Power" - suggest that elments of the series were considerably retooled during the gap between pilot and series.)

Regards,

Joe

The following is quoted from the making of The Gathering, from issue 6 (vol 2) of the Official Babylon 5 magazine:

"Regarding the Vorlons as a race, the [1991 promotional] flyer [sent to WB] states that 'a massive power struggle is going on among their upper echelons where advancement is only accomplished by assasination. They seek to eliminate the Earth Alliance and solidify themselves as heads of the Empire.' This was deliberate misinformation by Straczynski, who worried about how they [WB] might take the real ideological struggle."

It seems to me that if this was the real concept for the Vorlons, in 1991 (only a year before the pilot was filmed) then JMS was leaving it really late in the day to change the concept of the Vorlons, and hence the entire story of B5. And it does indicate there that it was misinformation.

 

[raw_bean]

Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

I think a few words from the man himself can settle this debate:

"The Minbari are the oldest of the different alien civilizations, and
largely kept to themselves."

Thats from one of his Genie posts, made on Wed Jan 01, 1992. Read it here: http://www.midwinter.com/b5/GEnie/jms92-01

As for how late in the day JMS made fairly major changes to the story, don't forget the pretty huge one that this same post reminds us of: "His name is Delenn."

EDIT: Just to clarify my point, this post was made while JMS was working on the revised draft of the script, with only approval from WB between it and filming. The only conclusion I can come to is that at the time of the making of The Gathering, JMS considered the Minbari the oldest of the five major races. The final nature of the Vorlons, Minbari and their relationship must have developed after The Gathering.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

During filming of The Gathering the Vorlons went from bipeds with arms to limbless beetles. When other changes occurred I do not know but I suspect that they were always old.

 

[raw_bean]

Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

Always old, no doubt, but as the balance of evidence appears to show, not the oldest.

 

[Springer]

Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

Yeah, but JMS trying to keep his cards close to his chest. If he let it right out of the bag from the get-go, "Oh, the Vorlons are the oldest, they've been around for billions of years" it takes away some of the mystery of the Vorlons. Remember nobody was supposed to know anything about them. And after the Vorlons, the Minbari were the oldest.

As for Delenn, I think the change from a he to a she was down to Mira Furlan wasn't it? She didn't want her voice altered?

 

[GaribaldisHair]

Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

It was more the difficulty in getting it to be convincing ...

Click me

 

[raw_bean]

Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

Sorry, but the 'keeping cards close to chest' argument holds no water with me. If he was doing that, why bother to lie about the Minbari at all? Why not simply not point out ANY race as being the oldest? The way you phrase it seems to imply that he had to either lie and say what he did about the Minbari or else reveal spoilers about the Vorlons, ignoring the possibility of just keeping quiet altogether. There would be NO reason in the slightest to say the Minbari are the oldest to cover up thain fact the Vorlons are the oldest, and quite apart from the fact that I personally doubt JMS ever directly lied to the fans, the only logical conclusion as I see it is that at the point he made the statement, it was true. The early B5 brochure linked somewhere above certainly indicates that the Vorlons went through changes during the development of the show.

 

[Springer]

Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

Sorry, but the 'keeping cards close to chest' argument holds no water with me. If he was doing that, why bother to lie about the Minbari at all? Why not simply not point out ANY race as being the oldest? The way you phrase it seems to imply that he had to either lie and say what he did about the Minbari or else reveal spoilers about the Vorlons, ignoring the possibility of just keeping quiet altogether. There would be NO reason in the slightest to say the Minbari are the oldest to cover up thain fact the Vorlons are the oldest, and quite apart from the fact that I personally doubt JMS ever directly lied to the fans, the only logical conclusion as I see it is that at the point he made the statement, it was true. The early B5 brochure linked somewhere above certainly indicates that the Vorlons went through changes during the development of the show.

You're confusing the two arguments. I never said that when G'kar says in the pilot that the Minbari were the oldest federation, that JMS was lying. At that point, as far as G'Kar knew, the Minbari were the oldest because in terms of the storyline at that point nobody knew a lot about the Vorlons, except for the Minbari. When I said JMS had been "keeping his cards close to his chest", I wasn't inferring that he was lying as you seem to think I am. G'Kar, as far as he knew, was saying the truth. JMS was doing a slow reveal on the Vorlons, which culminates in later seasons as we discover things about them at the same the characters do. Remember In The Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum? Would that have been as big a revelation if we had already been told that the Vorlons were billions of years old? Of course not. We may have suspected from clues that JMS gave us, but we didn't know for sure.

The promotional brochure, which I quoted, was for the WB execs, not the fans, so he was not "lying to the fans" with that brochure. Its already been stated in the official magazine that, when he was trying to sell the show, he was worried about how TV execs would take to the ideological aspects of the show. And in the pilot and the during the first season, not a lot is known about the Vorlons, so he couldn't put on the brochure "nobody knows anything about the Vorlons" and leave it at that because that's not going to help to sell the show. So the stuff about Vorlons conspiring against Earth in. Maybe they were older ideas, but I find it so hard to believe that twelve months before filiming on The Gathering began that the concept of the Vorlons, and hence the whole of the B5 story, was so different. Sorry, I just don't buy it.

Of coure, when JMS releases his scripts, with the original Gathering script contained inside it, maybe we'll be able to find out for sure. But its fun to speculate, and its fascinating to see how B5 was developed.

 

[raw_bean]

Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

Sorry, but the 'keeping cards close to chest' argument holds no water with me. If he was doing that, why bother to lie about the Minbari at all? Why not simply not point out ANY race as being the oldest? The way you phrase it seems to imply that he had to either lie and say what he did about the Minbari or else reveal spoilers about the Vorlons, ignoring the possibility of just keeping quiet altogether. There would be NO reason in the slightest to say the Minbari are the oldest to cover up thain fact the Vorlons are the oldest, and quite apart from the fact that I personally doubt JMS ever directly lied to the fans, the only logical conclusion as I see it is that at the point he made the statement, it was true. The early B5 brochure linked somewhere above certainly indicates that the Vorlons went through changes during the development of the show.

You're confusing the two arguments. I never said that when G'kar says in the pilot that the Minbari were the oldest federation, that JMS was lying. At that point, as far as G'Kar knew, the Minbari were the oldest because in terms of the storyline at that point nobody knew a lot about the Vorlons, except for the Minbari. When I said JMS had been "keeping his cards close to his chest", I wasn't inferring that he was lying as you seem to think I am. G'Kar, as far as he knew, was saying the truth. JMS was doing a slow reveal on the Vorlons, which culminates in later seasons as we discover things about them at the same the characters do. Remember In The Shadow of Z'Ha'Dum? Would that have been as big a revelation if we had already been told that the Vorlons were billions of years old? Of course not. We may have suspected from clues that JMS gave us, but we didn't know for sure.

The promotional brochure, which I quoted, was for the WB execs, not the fans, so he was not "lying to the fans" with that brochure. Its already been stated in the official magazine that, when he was trying to sell the show, he was worried about how TV execs would take to the ideological aspects of the show. And in the pilot and the during the first season, not a lot is known about the Vorlons, so he couldn't put on the brochure "nobody knows anything about the Vorlons" and leave it at that because that's not going to help to sell the show. So the stuff about Vorlons conspiring against Earth in. Maybe they were older ideas, but I find it so hard to believe that twelve months before filiming on The Gathering began that the concept of the Vorlons, and hence the whole of the B5 story, was so different. Sorry, I just don't buy it.

Of coure, when JMS releases his scripts, with the original Gathering script contained inside it, maybe we'll be able to find out for sure. But its fun to speculate, and its fascinating to see how B5 was developed.

I'm sorry Springer, but you are confusing *my* arguments too. the 'playing cards close to chest = lying = what I don't think JMS would do' line of reasoning related not to G'Kar's line, your points are perfectly logical there; I wouldn't argue the G'Kar at the time was any great authority on Vorlons. The person who *was* a great authority on Vorlons, however, was JMS, who said online, to repeat: "The Minbari are the oldest of the different alien civilizations, and
largely kept to themselves." Genie, Wed Jan 01, 1992. Read it here: http://www.midwinter.com/b5/GEnie/jms92-01

I didn't realise that in your original 'playing cards close to chest' line you were still talking about G'Kar, I assumed it was a response to the JMS quote I posted. Now that we each know what the other was *actually* talking about ( ) , maybe my post makes more sense to you?

As far as I'm concerned the G'Kar line and early brochure are merely loose corroborations, largely unecessary, of this direct and specific quote from the man himself. But you're right, maybe we'll find out more when the scripts are released.

 

[deaded]

Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

First of all, we all KNOW G'kar. We know he was playing to the Minbari pride when he spoke to Delen. In the same vein, JMS has made clear throughout the series that all beings are known to lie: or as Londo might say, “Mis-speak.” You can't believe everything you hear, or see. Just because G'kar said that the Minbari are the oldest and most powerful does not mean it is a true fact. But he knew it would get the attention of Delen.

Secondly, since the Vorlons did not participate in any interspecies events prior to B5, I don't think that he was including them when JMS spoke of the five major races. I think that the phrase, 'Major races,' was espoused from a Narn viewpoint and I suspect that they were (in no particular order), 1) Narn, 2)Minbari, 3) Human, 4) Centauri, and 5) Drazi (Yeah, Drazi, sure they were "non-alligned" politically, but physicaly they were everpresent).

uh... so when is this releasing-of-the-scripts supposed to happen? I must have missed something. I imagine it will be through Warner Brothers and Del Ray or something, right?

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

uh... so when is this releasing-of-the-scripts supposed to happen? I must have missed something. I imagine it will be through Warner Brothers and Del Ray or something, right?

It has started, you can buy through this website
www.babylon5scripts.com

They are published by Cafe Press.

 

[Springer]

Re: \"The Gathering\" Question

Secondly, since the Vorlons did not participate in any interspecies events prior to B5, I don't think that he was including them when JMS spoke of the five major races. I think that the phrase, 'Major races,' was espoused from a Narn viewpoint and I suspect that they were (in no particular order), 1) Narn, 2)Minbari, 3) Human, 4) Centauri, and 5) Drazi (Yeah, Drazi, sure they were "non-alligned" politically, but physicaly they were everpresent).

Yeah, maybe that would explain it. It just seems strange to me that with so much of the rest of the storyline so evidently decided upon (eg JMS' detailed description of the Earth-Minbari War) that he would change his concept of the Vorlons at the last minute.

And sorry raw bean, didn't mean to go all irate on you! I must have been having a bad day or something.