The Great Link

[ElScorcho]

I have heard many places that JMS had pitched B5 to Paramount before it was picked up by WB, and that Paramount unwittingly usurped many of his ideas for their next Star Trek spinoff, Deep Space Nine.

After rewatching the series (DS9), particularly the final season, on a local channel, I have noticed that the pilfering of ideas did not stop in the pilot stage. In fact, most of the season seven arc of DS9 could have taken place in the B5 universe by simply changing the characters.

Despite the crossover actor/esses (i.e. Tracy Scoggins and John Vickery as Cardassians, Bill Mumy as a human, Jeffrey Combs, etc.), the overt religious overtones and the fact that both shows took place on a space station, I have found a good number of parallels between the two shows.

- The main character is a religious icon. (Sinclair=Valen / Sisko=The Emissary)

- Quasi-godlike aliens speak in riddles. (Vorlons / Prophets)

- Bad aliens affect policy behind the scenes. (Shadows / Founders)

- Space station is governed by military commander. (Sheridan / Sisko)

- Main character is a widower. (Sheridan / Sisko - okay that one works in reverse)

- Antagonist race is a former foe in a war that a lot of people still hold a grudge over. (Minbari / Cardassians)

- Space station has an interspecies marketplace. (Zocalo / The Promenade)

- Space Station situated near source of mysterious alien power. (Epsilon 3 / The Wormhole)

- Commander instrumental in unfolding galactic war. (Shadow War / Dominion War)

- Commander tricks potential allies into fighting for him. (League of Nonaligned Worlds / Romulans)

- Secret Police. (Section 13 / Section 31)

- Religious zealots wooed by the darkside. (Draak / Pah-wraiths)

- Commander's wife is pregnant when the show ends. (Delenn / Kassidy)

- Most of the crew get promoted / leave the station at the end of the series.

- Main character disappears into the light. (Sheridan / Sisko)

There are many more similarities, but some are much more subtle. Perhaps this is why many B5 fans think of DS9 as the best Trek show. In some ways, it's clearly a knockoff.

 

[AntonyF]

I really resent DS9 being called a knock off. They had a highly talented team of writers who spanned seven seasons... the story evolved so many times as well.

Yes there are many similarities... some stronger than others. BUt I think you can find patterns in many shows.

With Star Trek, it was logical that it had to move away from the spaceship format, and ground itself. It had already introduced the Cardassians two years before, and the Bajors one year before... so that the basis for the main story that was to come.

But when you get down to the nitty and gritty of it, they are totally different beasts. One is about moving away from your parents so to speak, and overthrowing a corrupt government. The other was varied, but ultimately about how an outside influence, that's "all around us but invisible" can drive friends into foes, foes into friends and the complexities there off. And how, people in a "perfect" place, deal with something that's just not perfect.

I run a B5 site, so my love of it is clear, but I just have to stick up for DS9 over B5. I think DS9 is the better show, to be honest. But more than that, as much as I admire JMS deeply, I think he's often fueled the "Paramount stole DS9" idea. Firstly, Paramount's involvement is along the lines of "ge the Klingons in season four, and put Worf in there". They don't worry themselves with plot details. And secondly.. DS9 was created off the back of the highly successful TNG, and they had their team of producers and writers. Why would they need to copy from JMS pitching some idea, because although JMS was of course an established writer by that point, in terms of doing sci-fi shows he wasn't anyone.

If someone called Joe Bloogs came up and said the Voyager premise was stolen off of him, you'd not think a thing of it! But if a respected writer,who'd proved they could do sci-fi, came up and said it, you may very well believe them. To be blunt... was JMS even that important to Paramount? I don't think so really.

At the end of it, I think it's coincidence mostly, and one of those things. And watching the shows, they are very different beasts anyway.

 

[FlipperPA]

There are a ton of similarities... no doubt.

However, IMHO, DS9 was the best Star Trek series from an overall story standpoint. Whether they borrowed or were inspired by JMS doesn't really matter to me. TOS is great from a camp standpoint, and for its era. I can't watch TNG any more... already very dated. However, DS9 is still very watchable and well written. Similar, yes, but a quality show.

It could be argued that all TV sci-fi since TOS was a blatant rip-off of Star Trek anyway.

Kirk and Sheridan?
Lennier and Spock?
Hot green alien sex versus Sheridan and Delenn?
White Star versus Enterprise?
Klingons and Narns?
Minbari and Vulcans?

These discussions are always fun... one of my favorite moments from the B5 bloopers is from Severed Dreams, when Ryan arrives and talked about General Hague... in the blooper reel, Ryan walks in and says "Hague couldn't make it. He's currently busy on Deep Space Nine!"

hehehehe

-Tim

 

[DaRkEnEdStAr]

I love the original star trek and sci-fi from that era , they called them B-movies .... I laugh even now about the slightest change in temperature could be seen as a prelude to an invasion

 

[KoshFan]

Now, I haven't seen much DS9 (which is to say, perhaps 10 minutes total) but my friends who introduce me to the show AND are Trek fans feel that DS9 did a lot of borrowing. However, as a writer, when I see a good idea that somebody else used, I try to use it in my own writing. Over time it becomes unrecognizeable, buried in my own interpretations and variants, but the seed idea is not my own. So on the whole I can't condemn the DS9 writers for doing a little borrowing. In the effort to make a better show they followed a darn good template.

 

[KoshN]

<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by AntonyF: </font color>
They (DS9) had a highly talented team of writers ...

You've got to be kidding.

To me, DS9 was a knock off (of the initial B5 Series Treatment - 2nd Draft September 1988), which later evolved into a series which had some differences.

<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by AntonyF: </font color>
Yes there are many similarities... some stronger than others. BUt I think you can find patterns in many shows.

Oh, yes, it's all just "coincidence" that Paramount was offered the series ~1988, turned it down, and then came up with their own series that had all the aforementioned similarities when they found out that B5 was going to be made, and rushed their series into production to beat the B5 pilot on the air (so they could look like they were the ones who had the original idea).

I have this bridge in Brooklyn that I can sell to you really cheap.

<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by AntonyF: </font color>
With Star Trek, it was logical that it had to move away from the spaceship format, and ground itself.

Logical? I thought it was idiotic. Until Worf showed up, I thought DS9 was the most boring thing I'd ever seen. I started watching Voyager in January 1995 in the hopes that "a road show might be less boring." (I was wrong about that. Voyager was even worse than DS9.

). DS9 finally got a little interesting when Worf showed up and when they gave the station some weapons, and they had that big battle with the Klingons. Prior to that it was nothing but whiney Bajorans, unarmed shuttles, introspective and annoying "kid" and family episodes, and Ferengi scheming/Quark's Bar episodes. Blech. Ptui.

<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by AntonyF: </font color>
It had already introduced the Cardassians two years before, and the Bajors one year before... so that the basis for the main story that was to come.

Yeah, two of my least favorite parts of TNG (the Bajorans and the Cardassians, not to mention the Maquis,

):

Ensign Ro
Preemptive Strike

<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by AntonyF: </font color>
But when you get down to the nitty and gritty of it, they are totally different beasts.

Yeah, B5 was good-to-great and DS9 was mostly dren with a "we're winging it" sort of arc. With B5, JMS knew the start and the end, and a pretty detailed path of how he wanted to get there. With DS9, they just kept extrapolating, and the end point was much more fluid. Reason: That's the way that Trek writers are used to working, to keep extrapolating from the previously aired episodes.

<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by AntonyF: </font color>
I run a B5 site, so my love of it is clear, but I just have to stick up for DS9 over B5. I think DS9 is the better show, to be honest.

To me, they're not even close. I was bored and/or annoyed by all but a few episodes of DS9. I only disliked a couple episodes of B5. I am going to buy all of B5 on DVD. If I won all the DS9 DVDs, I'd sell them, instantly, and use the money to pay for the B5 DVDs. If I couldn't sell the DS9 DVDs, I'd give them away (same goes for Voyager).

<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by AntonyF: </font color>
But more than that, as much as I admire JMS deeply, I think he's often fueled the "Paramount stole DS9" idea.

But if Paramount DID steal the original idea (from the series treatment that they were given), JMS has a right to resent what Paramount did.

<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by AntonyF: </font color>
Firstly, Paramount's involvement is along the lines of "ge the Klingons in season four, and put Worf in there". They don't worry themselves with plot details.

Whoa there! They stole the whole idea for the show, from the very beginning (the series treatment). They gave that starting point (probably retyped and changed a bit to suit their Trek universe, and to disguise the fact that they ripped off the idea) to their writers. Sure, after the show was running, their involvement would have been in how they could spice it up using resources from their TNG bag of tricks (e.g. Worf), but at the beginning they had that massive ripoff of the starting point.

<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by AntonyF: </font color>
And secondly.. DS9 was created off the back of the highly successful TNG, and they had their team of producers and writers.

Oh boy, Berman and Braga.

Well, Piller was in there too. *shrug*

<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by AntonyF: </font color>
Why would they need to copy from JMS pitching some idea, because although JMS was of course an established writer by that point, in terms of doing sci-fi shows he wasn't anyone.

Your naïveté here is astounding.

Oh, let's see:

<ul type="square">[*]Because the TNG people were out of ideas.
[*]Because the idea for DS9/B5 had been handed to them on a silver platter.
[*]Because they are not above doing such things.
[*]Because they have more, highly paid, powerful lawyers, and so can get away with it.
[/list]

<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by AntonyF: </font color>
If someone called Joe Bloogs came up and said the Voyager premise was stolen off of him, you'd not think a thing of it! But if a respected writer,who'd proved they could do sci-fi, came up and said it, you may very well believe them.

Wrong. Look at the series treatment. It's dated September 1, 1988 The coincidences between it and DS9 are too great.

<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by AntonyF: </font color>
To be blunt... was JMS even that important to Paramount? I don't think so really.

They had to come out with their own version first, and didn't want anything else to have a chance of catching on. They viewed space sci-fi TV as "their territory," and didn't want to have to tolerate interlopers. If they came out with the series first, it would look like this obscure guy, JMS, had copied their idea, and that would further reduce the chances of JMS's show succeeding.

<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by AntonyF: </font color>
At the end of it, I think it's coincidence mostly, and one of those things. And watching the shows, they are very different beasts anyway.

Because, in the end, Paramount's ploy didn't work, and the B5 story got told. Though both shows started out from the same point, and the differences were camouflaged, and the DS9 writers were occasionally nudged to do certain things by Paramount, the stories diverged because JMS wasn't doing the DS9 writing. The motive/creative force behind both shows was the same at the beginning (JMS's idea and series treatment), but the motive/creative force was diffenent after that point, and so the stories diverged. While it looks like the DS9 writers were not knowingly copying B5, I believe the overall direction from above was to steer the writers in that general direction. In the end, I find the B5 story compelling and the DS9 story eminently forgettable. B5 is a nicely cut (not flawless but very nice) diamond, and DS9 is a badly cut cubic zirconia.

 

[Sigma]

I have only seen maybe max. 7-8 first season DS9 episode so my knowledge is limited, but i think that DS9 and B5 are not similar. I know that in later seasons it got similar arcs etc but when looking basic settings (and ignoring that both are in a space station), they are very different shows.

I know that it's called best Trek, but imo first season was very very weak - even, if you compare it to B5 first season.

 

[Fas]

But if Paramount DID steal the original idea (from the series treatment that they were given), JMS has a right to resent what Paramount did.

I made a search in JMSNEWS, and as far as i can tell JMS has never said directly that Paramount ripped-off his idea.

 

[KoshN]

Here's what I found just now:

Attn: JMS, re: B5 and DS9.

Deep Space 9

Deep Space 9 (cont'd.)

Re: Who cares if DS9 imitates B5

Re: Between the darkness and the light

DS9 = Babylon5 So what? 2

DS9 = Babylon5 So what?

Grand Theft, drama!

 

[Fas]

*sigh* i need to learn to use the search engine.

I was actually considering buying the DS9 series eventually, but after reading that... there´s no way im giving money to those thiefs.

 

[Recoil]

First off, I cant believe you people are getting into such a pissing match about this AGAIN. Its history. Deal with it.

Second, while it may not change whether what is posted is accurate or not, I would just like to comment that everything KoshN has posted, is from jmsnews.com. Those of you that care enough to drag this up again and are looking for a NEUTRAL and OBJECTIVE story on what happened probably shouldnt look towards KoshN or JMSNEWS.COM.

 

[Shaal Mayan]

Hmm ...thanks for the links .It made for interesting reading.And some food for thought.

 

[KoshN]

<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by Recoil: </font color>
First off, I cant believe you people are getting into such a pissing match about this AGAIN. Its history. Deal with it.

Who crowned you king of what we can discuss?

<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by Recoil: </font color>
Second, while it may not change whether what is posted is accurate or not, I would just like to comment that everything KoshN has posted, is from jmsnews.com. Those of you that care enough to drag this up again and are looking for a NEUTRAL and OBJECTIVE story on what happened probably shouldnt look towards KoshN or JMSNEWS.COM.

1. I started out watching DS9 from the beginning. I bought the series bible, sweatshirts and various other DS9 knickknacks on QVC. I wanted DS9 to be good. It wasn't, IMHO. It was mostly boring and annoying as hell.

2. Later I started watching Voyager, and it wasn't any good either.

3. Even later, I started watching B5, and it was like BAM, hey this is good!

So, because I can see JMS's point, and happen to like B5 a helluva lot more than DS9, my opinion is to be discounted as not being neutral and objective? Gimme a break!

Sounds like the only people are "objective" here are the ones who don't prefer one over the other, at least to you. Who should people look to for a neutral and objective discussion, you? Ha!

 

[Recoil]

lol!

I never said you couldnt discuss it. I said I cant believe you people are wasting your time with this. There is a difference.

And as to my point about you not being the greatest source for neutral information, I think your over-reaction to my post illustrates that better than I ever could have.

 

[Fas]

First off, I cant believe you people are getting into such a pissing match about this AGAIN. Its history. Deal with it.

Second, while it may not change whether what is posted is accurate or not, I would just like to comment that everything KoshN has posted, is from jmsnews.com. Those of you that care enough to drag this up again and are looking for a NEUTRAL and OBJECTIVE story on what happened probably shouldnt look towards KoshN or JMSNEWS.COM.

Well, i believe JMS is neutral, and he certainly hasn´t given us any reason to believe that he isn´t.

As for all this bitching... in all honesty untill an hour ago i coudn´t care less about the ripping-off part.

But this part about Paramount putting pressure to sink b5 before it made it to the screen was something i knew nothing about untill now. Telling people that if they work on b5 they´ll never work for a Paramount proyect again? Pushing the production and telling people JMS ripped-them off?

What kind of behaviour is this? The one of loosers, IMHO.

 

[KoshN]

<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by Recoil: </font color>
lol!

I never said you couldnt discuss it. I said I cant believe you people are wasting your time with this. There is a difference.

The implicit meaning is that "You people shouldn't be discussing this."


I objected to:

"Those of you that care enough to drag this up again and are looking for a NEUTRAL and OBJECTIVE story on what happened probably shouldnt look towards KoshN or JMSNEWS.COM."

I objected to my opinion being discounted as something not worth listening to because I happen to agree with JMS on this, and find his responses believable.

<font color="yellow"> Originally posted by Recoil: </font color>
And as to my point about you not being the greatest source for neutral information, I think your over-reaction to my post illustrates that better than I ever could have.

Nonsense. Read your post back like someone said it to you, and then see what you think.

 

[Shaal Mayan]

The part about Paramount trying to sink babylon 5's production staff is really childish and I very ashamed to admit to being a Ds9 fan and will strongly consider sending the season one dvd's back.

 

[Lyta]

Whoa, geez.

I also cannot believe this topic is being rehashed yet again but obviously, there are some people out there who are not aware of the whole "DS9 vs B5" situation. It is good for them to get "informed" (depending on how you view the situation) but you also have to forgive us old foggies who have seen this arguement again and again and grow weary of it.

JMS is not neutral on this topic and rightly so. You have to remember we are hearing only one side of the story and from a person who sacrificed blood, sweat, tears and soul to the B5 project. JMS is not perfect and has every right to be bitter or angry or whatever he feels about the situation. Still, that doesn't mean I don't respect his comments and opinions. I think a lot of what he says carries weight but neutral he is not.

Also, so what if people like DS9 more than B5. Everyone has different tastes and is entitled to like different things. What Paramount did back then is water under the bridge. Sure, be angry for what they did and how they did it but send back your DVDs of the show? Please.

 

[Loburian]

Ok,

You guys should be Glad that Paramount did not get B5. It would have sucked, because Paramount would have messed with the story (ala TNT). JMS is not neutral, but in this case who is? No one. If he is wrong about Paramount stealing his treatment, he is partially correct because they did make a show on a space station.

People have their ideas stolen/"borrowed" all the time. You have to be careful how you handle stuff like that.

Loburian

 

[Shaal Mayan]

I merely meant that it is really low down dirty rotten trick for any studio to do reguardless just for ratings and money.But then again isn't that what studio execus always think about.As for JMS being not neutral I think he has every right to be .As for taking back my DVd's that isn't my only reason .I had unexpected bill come in and was very large amount and will need to scrimpe and save every penny to pay for it.