The Gunnery sequence - Zero G?

drakh · Oct 30, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dark Lord:
Because they can simulate reality, remember the chamber where Delenn thinks she goes back in time, the computer takes from her thoughts and simulates the memory.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>As far as I remember, nothing about how the Dreaming worked was established beyond that they drank the liquid and entered the foggy room. To me it seemed more like an old religious ceremony, something that would pre-date their current level of tech by quite a bit.

I consider it far more likely that the liquid simply put them in a dream state and created a telepathic bond. We have stuff that can do the former today, and the fact that certain compounds can enhance telepathy have been established on the show. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Great machine is advanced in that it has far more data, power and ability but the simulation process is hardly anything beyond the younger race.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Then why aren't the Minbari traveling through time, projecting holograms over long distances or disabling ships with power drain weapons? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>quote:From an interview with jms in Cinescape:

Again, this could all be applied to her thinking she is moving her body.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, and I'm sure it could be explained by her having an acid trip too. When you see hoof prints, don't expect a Zebra. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>if the computer did both tasks, then why even bother with a pilot when computers can also pilot fighters (as seen today with recon planes).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Dramatic license. I've seen a lot of people say that any space based fighters would in all likelihood be unmanned drones. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Firing on co-ordinates - ACTA with the test firing, the gunner enters in co-ordinates and fires.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Special case.
The computer would probably be a little unsure at what part of the asteroid to target (given that it's primary objective is to destroy ships), and they were at relative stop with the asteroid, making manual targeting an option. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>This is seen again in Racing the night at the very least when Gideon asks for them to input the target co-ordinates (or something similar).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>The shielded underground power reactor? Special case again.

And as bakana said, weapons work this way today, so it'd be ridiculous to think they'll be less advanced 250 years into the future.

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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison quoting Gustave Flaubert

drakh@spamcop.net

drakh · Oct 30, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lennier:
So, if we learn to bypass some limitations of our current technology, a bottom-up approach may one day produce an AI comparable to a human mind (in at least some tasks). But it would never be of comparable flexibility.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Never covers an awfully long time, and a whole lot of statements made about limitations on computer tech made just 20-30 years ago are looking very silly today.

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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison quoting Gustave Flaubert

drakh@spamcop.net

**DONOTDELETE** · Oct 30, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>As far as I remember, nothing about how the Dreaming worked was established beyond that they drank the liquid and entered the foggy room. To me it seemed more like an old religious ceremony, something that would pre-date their current level of tech by quite a bit.

I consider it far more likely that the liquid simply put them in a dream state and created a telepathic bond. We have stuff that can do the former today, and the fact that certain compounds can enhance telepathy have been established on the show.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those compounds are addictive however because telepathy is a sought after power, I mean wouldn't you want it? And how in hell could a drug work out who to be telepathically linked with? Lennier and the other guy drinking the drug somehow knowing that they wish to see Delenns memory makes no sense.

Computer involvement can determine this however, as it can be pre-programmed before Delenn took the drug.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Then why aren't the Minbari traveling through time, projecting holograms over long distances or disabling ships with power drain weapons?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just said that they don't have the data nor power, this would stop them from time travel.

EA have civilian based holograms the size of pens that project em just fine. I doubt the Minbari will have much trouble.

Did we miss ITB per chance?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Yes, and I'm sure it could be explained by her having an acid trip too. When you see hoof prints, don't expect a Zebra. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What the hell? Holograms are presented in the 'booth', the user interfaces with a computer and it feels like reality... as in virtual reality. Think in terms like the matrix. I'm saying that I think this is a better method of controling ship fire than literally kicking and punching about the place suspended in some room by gravity.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Dramatic license. I've seen a lot of people say that any space based fighters would in all likelihood be unmanned drones.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except that would require an AI equal to humans, and what we see in B5 is a computer unresponsive to authority. Not exactly what you wanna stick behind a powerful plasma cannon. So it would not work, which is why humans are used. Computers SERVE them.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Special case.
The computer would probably be a little unsure at what part of the asteroid to target (given that it's primary objective is to destroy ships), and they were at relative stop with the asteroid, making manual targeting an option. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Special case concerning the most powerful younger race ship, uhuh. Then how is it supposed to know about which part to hit on a warship? A warship which will be different for each race, meaning you'd have to manually program parameters for EACH ship!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The shielded underground power reactor? Special case again.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erm, why? So every warship will be a special case too since for some reason they're idiotic enough to allow a computer firing control which can't take commands from the captain but need a gunner to do it manually. So it should therefore be useless at targeting any 'alien' ship because it's a 'special case'.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And as bakana said, weapons work this way today, so it'd be ridiculous to think they'll be less advanced 250 years into the future.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What weapons? Weapons range from your hands to nuclear missiles, I hope to god the nuclear missiles are not targeted and fired by computers.

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Marc Cosgrove

"From chaos, order came. As was inevitable." -Summoning light

**DONOTDELETE** · Oct 30, 2001

Lets take an example of a current weapons system.

The surveillance radar detects the incoming aircraft. The computer is informed of the aircraft's track including height, speed and direction. The computer instructs the IFF unit to ping the track. If the tack returns the correct response the aircraft is classified as a friend. Friendly tacks are basically ignored.

However, on getting an incorrect response or no response to the IFF ping causes the track to be classified as a foe. The main computer instructs all units to go fatal.

The target's track details are sent to the missile launcher. The optical target tracking equipment turn to face the aircraft and zoom in on the target. The target will be placed at the centre of the cross hairs. As the target moves the tracker automatically tracks it moving the camera, launcher and missile as appropriate.

The computer then sends one more IFF ping to the target and asks its operator for permission to fire.

This is not science fiction; these war machines are currently in the field pinging aircraft.

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Andrew Swallow

Zoriah · Oct 31, 2001

Well, I don't know about you guys, but I'd go for dramatic license over theoretical realism in this case. I'd much rather watch a show where people's actions are important in a battle, where what they do means something, rather than having the computers control all the ship's systems, and fighters etc. That would be damn boring to watch.

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Delbert · Oct 31, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dark Lord:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Special case.
The computer would probably be a little unsure at what part of the asteroid to target (given that it's primary objective is to destroy ships), and they were at relative stop with the asteroid, making manual targeting an option.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Special case concerning the most powerful younger race ship, uhuh. Then how is it supposed to know about which part to hit on a warship? A warship which will be different for each race, meaning you'd have to manually program parameters for EACH ship!

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The shielded underground power reactor? Special case again.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Erm, why? So every warship will be a special case too since for some reason they're idiotic enough to allow a computer firing control which can't take commands from the captain but need a gunner to do it manually. So it should therefore be useless at targeting any 'alien' ship because it's a 'special case
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The "special case" would be because each of these targets - asteroid and reactor - are not standard targets contained in the weapons systems database. I doubt that EarthForce bothers to programme the parameters for asteroid destruction into its targetting computers, and attacking a geographical location would have to be done by co-ordinates. Of course, a combination of sensors and AI could, for example, identify stress lines in the asteroid or its likely centre of mass, or the energy signature of the reactor and target those. But it wouldn't sound as good, would it?

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bakana · Nov 1, 2001

Let's not forget such commands as "Target Engines Only".

Something we've heard more than once.

You don't always want the other ship Destroyed.
Sometimes you want it as intact as possible.
Maybe you're hoping to save the crew.
Maybe you just want to rummage around in their computer files, the crew's diaries, etc. to find out where the ship might have been.
Or where it was going.
Or What cargo it was carrying.

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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

**DONOTDELETE** · Nov 1, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Delbert:
The "special case" would be because each of these targets - asteroid and reactor - are not standard targets contained in the weapons systems database. I doubt that EarthForce bothers to programme the parameters for asteroid destruction into its targetting computers, and attacking a geographical location would have to be done by co-ordinates. Of course, a combination of sensors and AI could, for example, identify stress lines in the asteroid or its likely centre of mass, or the energy signature of the reactor and target those. But it wouldn't sound as good, would it?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But my point is that would mean against ships of an alien nature the computer would not be able to target them since they do not have those parameters set in. Such as the EA ships who had never before encountered the Drakh, knew nothing of their engines/weapons/bridge/shielding/weak points etc. so therefore the computer could not fire on them. Just as with the Rangers and the new bad guys. An AI can't give best guesses, only give the options you made them with. And sensors can be fooled as shown by the Minbari, who the Drakh are roughly equal to.

As Bakana brings up, how will it interpret the intentions of the crew? The computer could automatically destroy ships who were on a peace mission for example. IFF cannot figure this out on its own.

The computers job has always been to aid human operators, I doubt this much would change without replacing the human operator all together.

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Marc Cosgrove

"From chaos, order came. As was inevitable." -Summoning light

drakh · Nov 3, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dark Lord:
Such as the EA ships who had never before encountered the Drakh, knew nothing of their engines/weapons/bridge/shielding/weak points etc. so therefore the computer could not fire on them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>They'd have certain pretty obvious systems (weapons, active sensors, propultion) that a decent targeting computer ought to be able to identify fairly quickly, and put together a decent prognosiss as to where it should aim. A lot of the ships are also so small that "where" isn't really an issue.

In any case, while I didn't catch the entering of coordinates during Racing the Night, Matheson clearly says "Auto targeting systems hit, accuracy down 30%" during the battle with my kinsmen in Each Night I Dream of Home.

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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison quoting Gustave Flaubert

drakh@spamcop.net

drakh · Nov 3, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dark Lord:
Those compounds are addictive however because telepathy is a sought after power, I mean wouldn't you want it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You do not have the knowledge of the drugs effect on the Minbari metabolism to make that asumption. You are also giving them human motivations, that would not fit very well with Minbari socity as presented. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>And how in hell could a drug work out who to be telepathically linked with? Lennier and the other guy drinking the drug somehow knowing that they wish to see Delenns memory makes no sense.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Training. There are plenty of religions here on Earth that have their practicioners do weird things with their minds while unconcious, and outside that you have things like lucid dreaming. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I just said that they don't have the data nor power, this would stop them from time travel.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Delenn says they don't have the tech in War Without End, part I. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>EA have civilian based holograms the size of pens that project em just fine. I doubt the Minbari will have much trouble.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Umpteen miles across space, into enemy ships?

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You are not entitled to your own opinion. You are only entitled to your own informed opinion.
-- Harlan Ellison quoting Gustave Flaubert

drakh@spamcop.net

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