The hand.... Thirdspace

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 25, 2002

ORIGINALLY POSTED BY Tobias
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Since the thirdspace aliens could take over Vorlon minds it would make them more powerfull than the shadows. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

not necessarilly true. certainly more powerful than the Vorlons, but in the Technomage books we learn...

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black>Spoiler:</td></tr><tr><td> the shadows were telepathic. beings of energy inhabiting solid bodies</td></tr></table>

I think it is more likely that the TSA would be more an even match for the Shadows, though we have no basis for comparison. keep in mind that was one million years ago, the Vorlons could have evolved, likewise for the shadows, TSA, and all the rest...

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Who do you Serve and Who do you Trust?

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 25, 2002

originally posted by Lennier
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Aargh!
:: Shadow Nitpicking Team scampers away for cover ::

I had forgotten my piece of "speculative fan fiction".

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

:::Godkiller sneaks up behind, bites Lennier in the @ss:::

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Who do you Serve and Who do you Trust?

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 25, 2002

As far as telepathy goes:
--------------------

The Shadows certainly had powerful telepathic weapons. The Eye almost seized the mind of Ivanova from lightyears away. And mere weeks after its presumable destruction, a replacement for the Eye captured the thoughts of people aboard the White Star, including a very powerful telepath.

They knew telepathy. But there is no sure indication that they liked it. It was a means of dealing with the younger races, and thus impossible to ignore. They had to master it.

But their preferred means of communication seemed more like those of the technomages. The spell of listening to the Shadows intercepted commands for the Drakh. After all, they may have designed the technomages as their own equivalents among younger races. United by not who they are, but their goals and objectives -- by what they want.

Messages cast across light-years. Virtual meetings summoned outside time and space. It somehow feels different from Vorlon telepathy. It feels that what the Vorlons accomplished with biological means, the Shadows achieved with computers. Eventually, they must have arrived very close to each other.

An afterthought to that theme: if the Shadows may have once clashed with the Hand... then can it be possible that the same might await technomages? Because they, aside from the Minbari and Drakh, are another faction of great strength among the younger races. Unlikely, but as I said, speculation is fun.

As for Lorien:
-----------------------------

During billions of years, there is no doubt that many terrible things happened. Many wars were fought, many races fell and died. Many tried to conquer others and were conquered instead. All of them were forces beyond imagination for the younger races. I somehow doubt if telling Sheridan about the nasty details would have been wise.

Firstly, it would have been depressing. Sheridan, after all, was human. His memory could store only a tiny fragment, and even that fragment might have been too much to ask. Some crucial facts perhaps. But no more.

And leaving such information behind would be dubious. First One history, locations of their cities and ancient homeworlds... very dangerous information. I tend to think that Lorien considered the threat gone. By the time the threat might return, the younger races would have grown strong enough. For storytelling purposes, somebody found the threat too early.

As a slight afterthought to this theme -- at the time of "Rangers" the First Ones are actually still there. They are nowhere in sight, but Lorien is still waiting for the 20 years to pass. Others are probably waiting too, taking a coffee break in the intergalactic void, arguing about chaos and order.

Chances for their involvement story-wise are zero and none. But we may assume that *if* the younger races had started falling in front of a devastating enemy, the spidery and squiddy ones would been annoyed and interfered with matters.

Therefore I believe that the younger races were enough. Somebody stopped the Hand before they could gain inertia. Very probably, these were the Rangers. Either by blocking the bridge upon their return, or turning their servants against them. There could hardly be any great wars, for these would have been recorded in future history.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 25, 2002).]

Quagmire · Feb 25, 2002

The hand intimidate supposedly weaker races into doing their dirty work for them. The third space aliens manipulate telepathically than destroy weaker races because they are unworthy. Different motives and methods.

I doubt they are the same.

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"I was free to wallow in my own crapulence." -Mr. Burns in "Who Shot Mr. Burns Part Two"

KoshN · Feb 26, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Godkiller:
I am loath the post this entire quote, but I believe it suggests some interesting possibilities.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where exactly did you get this "quote?" The CCG? If so, I wonder how much of it (if it's from the CCG) JMS considers canon, and is willing to let it constrain the story he's going to tell (assuming B5:LotR goes to series).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Godkiller:
Something that I think a lot of people forget is that Lorien said that the Shadows were THE OLDEST, THE FIRST of the first ones. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, since Lorien is a First One, that's isn't quite true. The Shadows were said to be the oldest of the First Ones that came after Lorien and his race.

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

Crusade (reruns) starting 03/26/2002 at 1PM EST on the Sci-Fi Channel
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

[This message has been edited by KoshN (edited February 26, 2002).]

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 26, 2002

KoshN:

Look carefully in the post below the quote.

It is my piece of speculative fan fiction.

Just a scenario of "how it might have been".
To cause gleeful chaos.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 26, 2002).]

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 26, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Godkiller:
Something that I think a lot of people forget is that Lorien said that the Shadows were THE OLDEST, THE FIRST of the first ones.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually, since Lorien is a First One, that's isn't quite true. The Shadows were said to be the oldest of the First Ones that came after Lorien and his race.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

indeed, the Shadows did come AFTER Lorien and his people, thank you for clarifying that. But the Shadows also came BEFORE the Vorlons, long before, this is a fact that many seem to ignore in heated discussion.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The hand intimidate supposedly weaker races into doing their dirty work for them. The third space aliens manipulate telepathically than destroy weaker races because they are unworthy. Different motives and methods.
I doubt they are the same.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, but we saw so little of the TSA in Thirdspace, and we only know what the Vorlons told us through Lyta. I still like the concept that The Hand of God did something upon entering this other dimension (for speculations sake, presumably thirdspace) that set the TSA against other races. Perhaps the TSA were even a match for The Hand telepathically, if not technologically. of course this is mostly speculation, and much of it is based on Lennier's speculative fanfiction, Lyta's comments about the TSA's (thirdspace) and what G'kar and Minister Kafta told us of The Hand of God, The Hand of Destruction (TLADIS).

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Who do you Serve and Who do you Trust?

KoshN · Feb 26, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lennier:
KoshN:

Look carefully in the post below the quote.

It is my piece of speculative fan fiction.

Just a scenario of "how it might have been".
To cause gleeful chaos.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 26, 2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did. However, I thought it might have some roots in the CCG or a bit of JMS canon that I'd somehow missed.

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

Crusade (reruns) starting 03/26/2002 at 1PM EST on the Sci-Fi Channel
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

[This message has been edited by KoshN (edited February 26, 2002).]

Quagmire · Feb 27, 2002

JMS has made a habit of using viewers expectations to hide what he is actually is doing. Why does anyone think this instance is different?

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"I was free to wallow in my own crapulence." -Mr. Burns in "Who Shot Mr. Burns Part Two"

**DONOTDELETE** · Feb 27, 2002

I honestly do not see why so many are so quick to condemn JMS for re-using an old idea. I really do not believe the Hand are an old idea at all. Also, so many seem convinced that the only way for JMS to maintain continuity is for the Hand to "not be what they appear/not be what they've claimed to be". Instead i prefer to think JMS is pulling one of his classic plot twists: what if, despite G'kar's rather familiar remark at the end of TLADIS that "no one is exactly what he appears" what if the twist is that the hand IS exactly what they appear! G'kar's comment put everyone familiar with G'kar's self quote on guard, convincing them that the Hand are a missdirection. i just think it would be amusing if the hand turned out to be what they claim to be, THAT would be a classic JMS twist.

just some food for thought..

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Who do you Serve and Who do you Trust?

Teekas Dragon · Mar 2, 2002

How true. JMS has always given out just enough info for everyone to come to a common opinion of what is going on and then he slaps us with the truth, which was usually right in front of our faces the entire time.

About the shadows and the vorlons. Wasn't it said some where that they were the YOUNGEST of the first ones and stayed behind while the older ones went beyond the rim??? I'm pretty sure i heard that somewhere in late season 2 or early season/mid season 3. I do know for sure that the shadows are older than the vorlons, but from what i remember they are younger than ALL other first ones. If i'm wrong and someone can point me to the ep/book that has the right info in it i would be grateful since i haven't taken the time to watch the whole series straight through in quite some time now.

It was also said that the hand was banished/imprisoned by someone else, not that they just up and left cause they got pissed off by the other races.

Also, Sheridan said that he doubted that we would survive another run in with TSA. That's because luck played a part in stopping them in Thirdspace. Didn't JMS say somewhere that the whole thing with the hand would be over during season 1 if rangers went to series??? If that is so then i don't think that there is anyway for the hand and TSA to be one and the same. But that's just my opinion. Oh well, enough ranting for me for one night.

Please feel free to let me know if any of the points i've made (as in quotes from JMS and B5, not my opinions) are wrong. Damn i gotta go watch season 3 again.

L8R
Jerome

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I am a Ranger. We walk in the dark places no others will enter. We stand on the bridge and no one may pass. We live for the One. We die for the one.

KoshN · Mar 2, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Teekas Dragon:
About the shadows and the vorlons. Wasn't it said some where that they were the YOUNGEST of the first ones and stayed behind while the older ones went beyond the rim??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was said that the Shadows were the oldest of the First Ones that came after Lorien's race, and that the Vorlons were one of the younger races of First Ones.

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

Crusade (reruns) starting 03/26/2002 at 1PM EST on the Sci-Fi Channel

http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

IMPUDENCE · Mar 3, 2002

GodKiller you mentioned earlier that in the technomage trilogy it said that the shadows were telepathic energy beings inhabiting physical bodies. I was wondering could you tell me, or anyone else who knows, since I havent read those books, does it mention why they inhabit physical bodies, i mean whats the point, and why did they choose to inhabit bodies that look like insects/spiders.

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"INCORRECT" "Perhaps" "you do not understand" "It is not yet time" "NOO" "It is not our time" "Understanding is a three edged sword" "Impudent" "leave now" "disobedient"

bakana · Mar 3, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> does it mention why they inhabit physical bodies, i mean whats the point, and why did they choose to inhabit bodies that look like insects/spiders. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, we can assume that the insect/spider bodies are what they Always looked like.
Just as the Vorlons always looked like squids with wings.

As for why they Continue to use physical bodies, why not?
There are things that a Physical body can do that an Energy body can't.
Like eat Swedish Meatballs.

Plus, it was easier for them to deal with their Servant Races using the physical bodies.
In fact, it's possible that the Shadows never let the servant races even suspect they Had an energy state.
They may have felt that the younger races weren't quite "ready" for that piece of information.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

[This message has been edited by bakana (edited March 03, 2002).]

IMPUDENCE · Mar 3, 2002

Well if they inhabit physical bodies so that they can continue to experience physical things such as eating ....does that mean that when, for example, the centauri shot them (mordens companions) did they die, or was it just the physical body that died then they went back to their people and got themsleves another body each. Maybe in their purely energy form they cant interact with the physical universe ie. they are out of phase with it, like when they make themselves invisible, and thats why they inhabit physical bodies .....specualtion.

Anyone care to comment.

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"INCORRECT" "Perhaps" "you do not understand" "It is not yet time" "NOO" "It is not our time" "Understanding is a three edged sword" "Impudent" "leave now" "disobedient"

KoshN · Mar 3, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by IMPUDENCE:
Anyone care to comment.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought the carapace the Shadows inhabited was just their version of an encounter suit.

From Invoking Darkness, pg.7:

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black>Spoiler:</td></tr><tr><td>They too were creatures of light, yet they preferred a more material form, encasing themselves in jagged carapaces of blackness, adopting outer shapes that reflected the inner truth of their beings.</td></tr></table>

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

IMPUDENCE · Mar 3, 2002

Invoking Darkness???? Is this a book, where can I get my hands on it, I havent come across any B5 books, but they seem interesting based on some of the spoilers ive read.

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"INCORRECT" "Perhaps" "you do not understand" "It is not yet time" "NOO" "It is not our time" "Understanding is a three edged sword" "Impudent" "leave now" "disobedient"

**DONOTDELETE** · Mar 3, 2002

I very much doubt if they eat flarn. I would think that they have developed a more direct way of getting energy.

Having or not having a physical body... well, you have to have something. A mind should not exist without structure or media, so an "energy body" would just be another kind of media.

A physical body is localized. It can probably do things which an energy body would find difficult. Even Lorien preferred taking a material form to interact with others. Given that the Shadows and Vorlons are not as developed, I would assume that the same applies to them.

-----

Who knows what happens if you shoot a Shadow. They do not concentrate on defense, it might just die. Others would learn and adapt, being more careful.

Or it could fade halfway into hyperspace, becoming non-localized. Its normal-space coordinates would no longer fit in the room, but cover the whole Centauri royal palace. It might drift in hyperspace, heal its wounds and phase into normal space in another location. I doubt if they can travel long distances without ships, but the experience with Vorlons shows that short distamnces in vacuum are no problem. Who knows. Lorien could travel long distances without a ship.

Another possibility. Imagine that you managed to destroy its physical body and it got really annoyed. It might become something like a pissed-off Vorlon. It might stay in normal space and fight in its energy form.

Or perhaps it decided to leave, but leave as information, not matter? Perhaps it left its body to fall apart, jumped into the first computer network, took control of it and e-mailed itself to the nearest Shadow colony?

With the First Ones, you never know. Just like the question about Kosh and "Day of the Dead". Everyone who was "visited" had seen the visitor/messenger before. But Lochley had not seen Kosh. Perhaps Kosh simply stored a message in the station itself?

Not that I consider any of these options right.
They are just interesting possibilities.

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

KoshN · Mar 3, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by IMPUDENCE:
Invoking Darkness???? Is this a book, where can I get my hands on it, I havent come across any B5 books, but they seem interesting based on some of the spoilers ive read.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See my February 04, 2002 06:09 AM post in this thread:
B5 Books & Short Stories

"The Passing of the Techno-Mages - Book III - Invoking Darkness" by Jeanne Cavelos, ISBN 0-345-43833-7, December-2001, Del Rey, 357 pages.

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

**DONOTDELETE** · Mar 4, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Teekas Dragon:
About the shadows and the vorlons. Wasn't it said some where that they were the YOUNGEST of the first ones and stayed behind while the older ones went beyond the rim???
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It was said that the Shadows were the oldest of the First Ones that came after Lorien's race, and that the Vorlons were one of the younger races of First Ones.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

TRUE

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Who do you Serve and Who do you Trust?

The hand.... Thirdspace

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