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The merits of Byron
- Thread starter HeinleinFan
- Start date
Jade Jaguar
Regular
Re: Cutting Byron from season 5
No, definitely not the end of the world, and I realize I have NO say in who others hate. I'd held my peace until now, but after all the Byron bashing, saying he had NO good qualities, I finally had to speak up.
I do realize that Byron was irritating, to me, much as G'Kar was irritating in the beginning. But, that was the point, he wasn't there to make mundanes comfortable. It's kind of like rap/hiphop, which I find very irritating, in many ways, including the beat. But, that's part of it's point, it isn't created to make middle aged white guys feel good. That doesn't make it bad, though.
No, definitely not the end of the world, and I realize I have NO say in who others hate. I'd held my peace until now, but after all the Byron bashing, saying he had NO good qualities, I finally had to speak up.
I do realize that Byron was irritating, to me, much as G'Kar was irritating in the beginning. But, that was the point, he wasn't there to make mundanes comfortable. It's kind of like rap/hiphop, which I find very irritating, in many ways, including the beat. But, that's part of it's point, it isn't created to make middle aged white guys feel good. That doesn't make it bad, though.
hypatia
Regular
Re: Cutting Byron from season 5
That's what I never understood, either. Who said this character was meant to be beloved to the audience? He seemed to have a very tentative kind of truce with the world of the mundanes. I thought it was supposed to be uncomfortable to watch.
And to see Lyta finally find a community she really felt part of and to see how it ended up, that was the point of the thing. Not that everybody loved Byron.
That's what I never understood, either. Who said this character was meant to be beloved to the audience? He seemed to have a very tentative kind of truce with the world of the mundanes. I thought it was supposed to be uncomfortable to watch.
And to see Lyta finally find a community she really felt part of and to see how it ended up, that was the point of the thing. Not that everybody loved Byron.
Chilli
High Treason Prevention Officer
Re: Cutting Byron from season 5
I didn't just find him irritating as a person - I found his attitudes quite annoying as well. The whole "everyone owes us" thingy that often happens in reality when certain groups of people (or just certain people) are handled poorly by some. I throughout the whole story line was quite reminded of people that seem to feel the need to blame today's Germany for everything that happened in the Second World War for example. I was just .. so irritated by Byron's venomous attitude (which he had, also if he didn't want to admit it) towards anything "powerful" - hardly brings much sympathy to the cause IMHO
And he's not really comparable to the early G'Kar IMHO .. the early G'Kar at least seemed to know that he was an ass
I didn't just find him irritating as a person - I found his attitudes quite annoying as well. The whole "everyone owes us" thingy that often happens in reality when certain groups of people (or just certain people) are handled poorly by some. I throughout the whole story line was quite reminded of people that seem to feel the need to blame today's Germany for everything that happened in the Second World War for example. I was just .. so irritated by Byron's venomous attitude (which he had, also if he didn't want to admit it) towards anything "powerful" - hardly brings much sympathy to the cause IMHO
And he's not really comparable to the early G'Kar IMHO .. the early G'Kar at least seemed to know that he was an ass
Jade Jaguar
Regular
Re: Cutting Byron from season 5
Well, everyone DID owe him and his people, for fighting the shadows, freeing Earth from Clarke, and most especially their legalized subjection to literal slavery at the hands of Psycorps. And, this was the most recent history, they were the ones wronged, not a generation or two later. And, what did Byron think he and his people were owed? A place where they could live apart from mundanes, so that neither would run afoul of the other. Doesn't seem so much to ask to me. The obvious historical parallel is the state of Israel.
I will agree that G'kar had a good sense of humor, which Byron lacked. I do wonder how much sense of humor G'Kar had while Narn was under Centauri occupation the first time. It might not have been much. When we first meet G'Kar, he and his people are newly freed. I never disliked him for the chip he had on his shoulder then, since it was understandfable, given what he had gone through. At that time, I don't think he was a jerk, or an ass, but agressive in his defense of his people, and his (rightful) suspicion of the Centauri. He did realize this. This IS in great contrast to Byron's pacifist stance, which is also an understandable reaction to having suffered greatly at the hands of the powerful, and in his case, having BEEN one of those powerful oppressors, and feeling great guilt for it. I think that many prople actually despise him for his pacifism. I've seen that response often enough in real life.
Well, everyone DID owe him and his people, for fighting the shadows, freeing Earth from Clarke, and most especially their legalized subjection to literal slavery at the hands of Psycorps. And, this was the most recent history, they were the ones wronged, not a generation or two later. And, what did Byron think he and his people were owed? A place where they could live apart from mundanes, so that neither would run afoul of the other. Doesn't seem so much to ask to me. The obvious historical parallel is the state of Israel.
I will agree that G'kar had a good sense of humor, which Byron lacked. I do wonder how much sense of humor G'Kar had while Narn was under Centauri occupation the first time. It might not have been much. When we first meet G'Kar, he and his people are newly freed. I never disliked him for the chip he had on his shoulder then, since it was understandfable, given what he had gone through. At that time, I don't think he was a jerk, or an ass, but agressive in his defense of his people, and his (rightful) suspicion of the Centauri. He did realize this. This IS in great contrast to Byron's pacifist stance, which is also an understandable reaction to having suffered greatly at the hands of the powerful, and in his case, having BEEN one of those powerful oppressors, and feeling great guilt for it. I think that many prople actually despise him for his pacifism. I've seen that response often enough in real life.
Jade Jaguar
Regular
Re: Cutting Byron from season 5
Thanks for moving the thread, Antony. I had thought of asking, but you must have read my mind...
Thanks for moving the thread, Antony. I had thought of asking, but you must have read my mind...
hypatia
Regular
Re: Cutting Byron from season 5
Yea, Antony is usually rather picky about keeping that kind of nonsense out of the Q and A forum. I wondered how long he'd let us get away with it.
In any event, I sympathize in principle with what Byron was trying to do. I never saw it as "the world owes me a living" kind of thing, but more: what other option do we have? PsiCorps, the drugs, or get the hell away from Earth.
The trouble is, and always comes back to: how would you know they would stay on their planet? And we get a taste of what they could do if they ever wanted to near the end of Byron's little sit-in.
Just like most things in JMS's B5 universe, there simply is no easy answer to the question.
I do hope his mysterious announcement that is taking half a year to make does involve a movie or miniseries about the whole telepath problem.
Yea, Antony is usually rather picky about keeping that kind of nonsense out of the Q and A forum. I wondered how long he'd let us get away with it.
In any event, I sympathize in principle with what Byron was trying to do. I never saw it as "the world owes me a living" kind of thing, but more: what other option do we have? PsiCorps, the drugs, or get the hell away from Earth.
The trouble is, and always comes back to: how would you know they would stay on their planet? And we get a taste of what they could do if they ever wanted to near the end of Byron's little sit-in.
Just like most things in JMS's B5 universe, there simply is no easy answer to the question.
I do hope his mysterious announcement that is taking half a year to make does involve a movie or miniseries about the whole telepath problem.
B5_Obsessed
Regular
Actually, no. The bastard talked so long that we had wait forever for him to light himself up. Not to mention he got one last lick of the Happy Happy Teep Song in before pulling the trigger.
sleepy_shadow
Regular
Re: Cutting Byron from season 5
1) Byron may have reaslized that Psi-Corps was wrong.
That makes him no genius. Most reasonable people realized that. Even most telepaths, I suspect.
2) Byron may have realized that killing innocent people was wrong.
Quite an accurate realization, after the fact. After he agreed to serve Bester, and killed enough of innocent people.
3) Byron may have realized "his" people were wronged.
He experienced trouble defining who "his people" were -- and never cared to ask what they wanted. His people might have defined themselves otherwise than via telepathy.
Alien telepaths did not campaign for a telepath homeworld. A vast majority of Human telepaths had received no chance of expressing their opinion. His narrow group had no merit to deserve presents of planetary dimension.
In the Shadow war, alien telepaths outnumbered Human ones. It is doubtful if any member of Byron's group helped defend a single League ship.
Earth caved in to the Shadow offensive with a mere nudge. Instead of actions and violence, words and promises broke its defenses, and humanity attacked itself -- leading to most human telepaths having their strings pulled (and some having them pulled out).
That makes Byron one more thing which I dislike... a fool. He tried extortion with people who owed him nothing... people whose response even a Na'ka'leen could predict.
1) Byron may have reaslized that Psi-Corps was wrong.
That makes him no genius. Most reasonable people realized that. Even most telepaths, I suspect.
2) Byron may have realized that killing innocent people was wrong.
Quite an accurate realization, after the fact. After he agreed to serve Bester, and killed enough of innocent people.
3) Byron may have realized "his" people were wronged.
He experienced trouble defining who "his people" were -- and never cared to ask what they wanted. His people might have defined themselves otherwise than via telepathy.
Alien telepaths did not campaign for a telepath homeworld. A vast majority of Human telepaths had received no chance of expressing their opinion. His narrow group had no merit to deserve presents of planetary dimension.
In the Shadow war, alien telepaths outnumbered Human ones. It is doubtful if any member of Byron's group helped defend a single League ship.
Earth caved in to the Shadow offensive with a mere nudge. Instead of actions and violence, words and promises broke its defenses, and humanity attacked itself -- leading to most human telepaths having their strings pulled (and some having them pulled out).
That makes Byron one more thing which I dislike... a fool. He tried extortion with people who owed him nothing... people whose response even a Na'ka'leen could predict.
sleepy_shadow
Regular
I suspect even Delenn would have pointed out... that demand for a new homeworld was low among Minbari telepaths.
Donating a habitable planet, presumably with a jump gate and a pair of cruisers to guard against Psi-Corps takeover... to a hundred-something Humans, people representing only themselves... would be an act of generosity without finances to carry it through.
Only after the dissolution of Psi-Corps, with a sufficient number of Human telepaths able to exercise free choice... would the possibility of a telepath homeworld surface.
Donating a habitable planet, presumably with a jump gate and a pair of cruisers to guard against Psi-Corps takeover... to a hundred-something Humans, people representing only themselves... would be an act of generosity without finances to carry it through.
Only after the dissolution of Psi-Corps, with a sufficient number of Human telepaths able to exercise free choice... would the possibility of a telepath homeworld surface.
vacantlook
Super Moderator
Minbari telepaths weren't a feared and discriminated group among their fellow Minbari, so of course they wouldn't have a strong and pressing desire for personal freedom like so many human telepaths had.
Well, in the former he joins many, many of the charactors (I have alweays been a bit pissed off that Bester waited two episodes too long to shut up Efram Zimbalist Jr) but the in latter case you are right, it was an atrocity and I really wish Bester wasn't such a nice guy and had fried him in the middle of the first stanza.
Re: Cutting Byron from season 5
But what made him a "genius" in his own mind at least was that he had a plan to overcome the influence of the Corps.
But how many of the indoctrinated broke through their indoctrination? Not many, it seems.
Did the show say he had not asked what they wanted? I must have missed that. Given the ferver with which his local people followed him, it would seem that at least some of them agreed with him, whether he asked them or told them. And remember that this was just a small portion of the people he was working for and with. He and his followers claimed that he worked for all the Teeps who had escaped the Corps, and we know from previous episodes that these were not small numbers, since Bester himself came to shut down one of the stations on the Teep URR.
How do we know what means the human teeps had of expressing their opinions? And even if they did not have a means of expressing themselves, exactly how many people does it take to "deserve presents of planetary dimension?" Remember how few the colonists were in "Patterns of the Soul"? Yet no one said they had to leave the planet because their "narrow group had no merit to deserve presents of planetary dimension."
This is based on what? It is a non-argument.
He was desperate, because he could see that time was running out (the deal with Bester expired after 60 days) and that talking and cooperation was getting him nowehere. Remember that he DID save the White Star Fleet in "A Paragon of Animals" and got nada in return. He was trying the stick after the carrot had failed. Hardly a fool.
Remember that he HAD tried a few words in Delenn's ear, had tried nonviolence, and had tried active cooperation (saving the League a war in the process, and saving the entire Enfili people). His time was running out - Bester got to reclaim him and all of his fellow Teeps after the sixty-day quarantine expired.
Jade Jaguar
Regular
sleepy, Grumbler said much of what I would have said. I'll just add that Byron, being a teep, and in constant mental contact with his followers, couldn't help but know the basics of their wishes. Also, you seem to be completely overlooking the fact that Earth teeps had three options, serve Psycorps, a corrupt, brutally murderous, facist organization, allow themselves to be drugged, and basically destroyed by the drugs, as Ivanova's mother was, or run for their lives. Most countries on Earth today would consider that level of oppression more than enough reason to grant sanctuary. And, that is actually my biggest complaint about Sheridan's behavior in all this. He should never have agreed to return the teeps. This was just as bad as the US Supreme Court's Dred Scott decision, allowing for the return of escaped slaves, back to slavery.
A_M_Swallow
Regular
Re: Cutting Byron from season 5
2. His attack was triggered by reading Lyta's mind. She told him that the Vorlons made telepaths and about telepaths fighting in the Shadow War. If one of Byron's people had taken part Byron would have already known this.
1. Byron was a pacifist.
2. His attack was triggered by reading Lyta's mind. She told him that the Vorlons made telepaths and about telepaths fighting in the Shadow War. If one of Byron's people had taken part Byron would have already known this.
