The Passion of the Christ (ya knew it was coming!)

[PsionTen]

Re: The Passion of the Christ (ya knew it was comi

If they are ruled out, why else would a human being do what they did?

Even though I consider myself a Christian (or, more to the point, what I believe is more in synch with Christianity than any other religion) I can't ignore 30+ years of human experience. The fact that early Christians were ostricized and persecuted doesn't tell me anything about the existence of Jesus. Hell, from what I've seen, there's always a group of people that are more than willing to be ostricized and persecuted -- everything from boys piercing their ears; to spiked hair and purple hair; to tattos and brandings; to hate groups and satan worshippers; to cultists and comet worshippers.... people have been doing stuff like this since the beginning of time. Jim Jones got a 1,000 people to drink the Kool-Aid... Marshall Applewhite got 39 computer programmers in California to castrate themselves and commit suicide in order to reach the "mother ship".... The fact that people are fanatic about their beliefs doesn't really say anything about the validity of those beliefs.

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: The Passion of the Christ (ya knew it was comi

"why would they make it up?"

I believe people never just "make it up" consciously, but that they're eager to make grand leaps of faith. So why would they do that? Because the human need for the belief in something greater than they is extremely powerful. A group of Jews living under Roman rule who couldn't turn to their cruel, oppressive political rulers for guidance nor their corrupt religious establishment would naturally embrace the teachings of a messianic figure who preached love and wordly sacrifice for promise of a fulfilling afterlife. Given the spiritual and emotional impact of such believes, ignoring, accepting, or making excuses for real facts becomes extremely easy.

 

[Elenopa]

Re: The Passion of the Christ (ya knew it was comi

I saw the film today. Appropriate I thought, being Maunday Thursday.

An amazing film. Certainly not a fun film, but that isn't the point. Here are some of my thoughts.

I too wish there was more. We dropped straight into the story for such a brief part of Jesus' ministry. I would like two other films to be made now, dealing with the time before and after. The only reason this film works is because most of the population is familiar with the backstory.

Satan was an interesting inclusion. In the first scene, he seems to be acting as tempter just like during the forty days in the wilderness. I understand the pretty face thing, and am I the only one that thought 'Galen' when he appeared?

It would have been nice to have more flashbacks, if only to establish the context of what was happenning. Another reason for needing more films. I loved the one where Jesus was making the table. It shows him as a carefree young man, enjoying his work and joking with his Mother. He laughs; and that is something I rarely imagine Jesus doing.

I too came home and compared all four gospels. It is interesting to see who has included what in their account. Herod is only in one and although all four tell of the ear cutting incident, only Luke tells of the healing.

I got through all my popcorn, although I did have to pause for my handkerchief occasionally. There is a lot of blood, but then crucifixion was the worst death there was. Jesus died this way to show the world that God loved us so much that he was willing to suffer much more than any human could bear. That is my belief anyway. Everyone else can come to their own conclusions.

Just a final note. When it came to the Barabbas scene, did anyione else think 'Release Roger!' and 'Release Brian!'?

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: The Passion of the Christ (ya knew it was comi

Just a final note. When it came to the Barabbas scene, did anyione else think 'Release Roger!' and 'Release Brian!'?

Wobert? Wodewick? And what's so funny about Biggus Dickus. She has a wife, you know...

 

[Alluveal]

Re: The Passion of the Christ

First off, check out what Roger Ebert has to say about it here: http://www.chicagosuntimes.com/output/ebert1/cst-ftr-passion24.html

I find his review pretty close to how I felt.

I saw it as well and was quite moved by what I saw. First off, I am confused by the anti-semetic label this has gotten by some. For as many jewish priests that we saw quietly acknolwedging the fact that Christ had to die, we saw an equal number of jews weeping, crying out and (some) even helping. It boggles me to see people complaining about supposed anti-jewish sentiments yet did they see the same movie I did? Did they not see the jewish man help Christ carry the cross? Did they not see the jewish woman offer him water? How about those who wept, cried, begged?

Satan's part was undeniably creepy. This film did an amazing job at portraying Satan as this near-angelic being (with his pale face) yet you simply could not take your eyes off of him . . . utterly seductive--the ultimate temptation . . . and I could not stop wondering (despite my own disgust at these thoughts) what will he do next? Well done indeed. His presence in the garden of Gethsemane was near-horrific.

Glad I judged this for myself and glad I saw it. It is (like Saving Private Ryan) a movie I don't plan on seeing again. Once is enough to get the message. No offense to the film makers, but I didn't enjoy the movie, as well-done as it was. I saw it not for entertainment, but to see an artist's vision of something so profound that it became one of the most monumental religious movements in the history of the world. It was painful to watch, but important . . .

who comes off as some sort of androgenous cross-dresser -- was holding an infant/old man/fetus/demon thing.

What I got out of it was satan was mocking Jesus with the shadow of his own child--the Anti-Christ , letting him know if he goes through with his father's plans the Anti-Christ's time will come.

A side note to Satan. It was probably discussed already, but Satan was played by a woman, not a man

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: The Passion of the Christ

First off, I am confused by the anti-semetic label this has gotten by some. For as many jewish priests that we saw quietly acknolwedging the fact that Christ had to die, we saw an equal number of jews weeping, crying out and (some) even helping. It boggles me to see people complaining about supposed anti-jewish sentiments yet did they see the same movie I did? Did they not see the jewish man help Christ carry the cross? Did they not see the jewish woman offer him water? How about those who wept, cried, begged?

I agree, but I think there are two valid points to the claim:

1. Pilate was treated extremely sympathetic. It was the Jewish priests that "forced" him to crucify Jesus despite Pilate's reasoned and compassionate pleas and arguments.

2. The Jewish crowd supported freeing a disgusting murderer over Christ.

Of course the "villains" in the tale are the priests, but a lot of Jews have trouble understanding this dynamic between commoner and priest because, unlike Christians, we don't have priests. Rabbis are not the same thing at all.

3. Most of such criticism came not from the fact that the film itself is anti-Semetic, but that it will incite such behaviour from people, igniting the spark of hatred that already exists. They feel that Gibson's artistic or religious statement is not worth the potential violent side-effect. This is basically a debate between two philosophies: do we refuse to cater to the lower elements of society or do we occassionally do so to protect the rest of us?

The irony is that the whole point of the passion of Christ is that he was born to die for our sins. His death is God's will and a result of all of humanity's sins, past and present. To "blame" Jews is the complete opposite of Christianity, because it was supposed to happen. Had it not happened, the kingdom of heaven wouldn't have been created and y'all wouldn't have had much of a religion. Heck, you should be thanking our ancestors. They did the job that needed doing: killing the creature that was created for that very purpose.

Jesus was kinda like a veal calf.

Re: the anti-Christ, isn't that supposed to be sent by God as a pre-cursor to the return of Christ? I remember studying that it isn't going to be some big evil Christopher Walken thing like in the movies, just like a false messiah.

 

[hypatia]

Re: The Passion of the Christ

IIRC, the anti-Christ is actually supposed to bring peace to the world. For a time at least, right?

I forget a lot of these stories now that I no longer believe in them. But I'm pretty sure the anti-Christ is supposed to look pretty good at first, and at least appear to be a great leader.

Our first clue it won't be happening in our lifetimes.

 

[KoshFan]

Re: The Passion of the Christ

Yes, the Antichrist is supposed to be fairly attractive. It will be hard for many people to separate him from the real Messiah... but stand the two of them next to each other and you'll be able to see the difference.

 

[hypatia]

Re: The Passion of the Christ

So says the myth, of course. I've heard heated debates between Christians themselves as to how literally a lot of that should be taken.

 

[crazybillyo]

Re: The Passion of the Christ

Had it not happened, the kingdom of heaven wouldn't have been created and y'all wouldn't have had much of a religion. Heck, you should be thanking our ancestors. They did the job that needed doing: killing the creature that was created for that very purpose.

Heaven was created LONG before Christ died. As for thanking those who brought about the merciless killing of Christ, that one shouldn't do. Christ had to die, yes. That does not mean, however, that we should be glad for the people who brought it about. Those people were not killing him because they knew his death would bring salvation - they were killing him because it was convenient for them.

IIRC, the anti-Christ is actually supposed to bring peace to the world. For a time at least, right?

Yes, the Antichrist is supposed to be fairly attractive. It will be hard for many people to separate him from the real Messiah... but stand the two of them next to each other and you'll be able to see the difference.

Indeed, he will appear very appealing. Most of the world will be put under his command for a time. As for the Messiah's second coming, many will claim to be the Messiah. Don't be fooled though, when Jesus comes again, you will KNOW. It will be pretty spectacular.

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: The Passion of the Christ

That does not mean, however, that we should be glad for the people who brought it about

Yes, hence the joke.

I also don't really think Jesus is a veal calf.

Still, they were doing God's will, in a sense. Christians owe us. I demand reperations! Can someone get Jess Jackson on the phone? Maybe he can rhyme some sweet cash my way from all this.

"He did on the cross for you
Because he was killed by the Jew
Without salvation, the afterlife ain't funny
So give the mighty GKarsEye some money!"

 

[hypatia]

Re: The Passion of the Christ

That does not mean, however, that we should be glad for the people who brought it about

Yes, hence the joke.

I also don't really think Jesus is a veal calf.

Still, they were doing God's will, in a sense. Christians owe us. I demand reperations! Can someone get Jess Jackson on the phone? Maybe he can rhyme some sweet cash my way from all this.

"He did on the cross for you
Because he was killed by the Jew
Without salvation, the afterlife ain't funny
So give the mighty GKarsEye some money!"

I can picture GKE doing a little dance to that tune...

 

[crazybillyo]

Re: The Passion of the Christ

Still, they were doing God's will, in a sense. Christians owe us.

Fine. Just be sure to share the Rice Krispie Treats with the rest of the "brothers."

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: The Passion of the Christ

Mmm... Rice Krispie (TM) Treats. So tasty. A great way to wash out the taste of 1500 yrs of persecution from our mouths.

Oh man, now I have this image of the Pope with an embarrassed look on his face holding a big plate of snacks.

 

[crazybillyo]

Re: The Passion of the Christ

Just be sure to share the "reparations" instead of building a life-size replica of Pee-Wee's Playhouse.

Odd that you mention the Pope. I was thinking of that one ep of FG recently. Especially when Peter was talking about his dad. Something along the lines of: "He was working there for 60 YEARS. That's like 80 YEARS!"

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: The Passion of the Christ

"Meka-leka-hi, meka-hiny... God I hate you so much"

 

[Oatley1]

Re: The Passion of the Christ

3. Most of such criticism came not from the fact that the film itself is anti-Semetic, but that it will incite such behaviour from people, igniting the spark of hatred that already exists. They feel that Gibson's artistic or religious statement is not worth the potential violent side-effect. This is basically a debate between two philosophies: do we refuse to cater to the lower elements of society or do we occassionally do so to protect the rest of us?

The only people that this movie will incite into anti-Semetic acts are anti-Semetics. As such, these people don't require this movie to inspire their loathing and hatred - it's already there. Your argument would make sense if there were people sitting on the fence, deciding whether or not to become anti-Semetic, and seeing this film pushes them over the edge.

For the majority of Christians, I suspect that the movie will not inspire anti-Semetic thoughts and acts, but provoke deep thought (and guilt) about their personal involvement in the suffering and death of Christ by their sins. And I don't think it will inspire non-Christians to become anti-Semetic at all.

This is certainly the intent of Gibson (as demonstrated by his cameo as the Roman soldier who hammers the nail into Christ), and given his religious denomination, is the perfect representation of what we Catholics describe as "Catholic guilt". You've heard the Catholic chant at all? "Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea grandissima culpa"? TRANSLATED: My fault, my fault, my great, big, enormous, I am a worthless worm fault.

The movie is not meant to make people mad about Jews - it's meant to make them feel bad about themselves.

Of course, it doesn't stop me from watching the Family Guy episode with the Pope - you gotta love the Pope-mobile coming out of the Pope-cave...

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: The Passion of the Christ

The only people that this movie will incite into anti-Semetic acts are anti-Semetics.

Yeah, but it could be a difference between just an anti-Semite and a violent anti-Semite.

The movie will be played in Iran, a country which hates US product, but they seem to have no problem with this flick. And it ain't 'cause they're into Jesus.

Sure, they're using it the wrong way, but you can make propoganda out of anything. Many Iranian viewers will not be going to experience the sacrifice of Christ because he is not their Lord- they're going to watch powerful, money-grubbing Jews force a good ruler of conscious order the torture and death of a prophet over a vicious murderer.

 

[Oatley1]

Re: The Passion of the Christ

GKE,

Yeah, I can see your point, but I think the worst it can do is reinforce existing stereotypes - it's not like there are loads of Iranians at the moment who like the State of Israel... and this film won't influence any minds already made up one way or the other...

BTW, what is that Coltrane CD you keep raving about? Spring something? Is it any good?

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: The Passion of the Christ



I rave about a Coltrane CD? Here? Funny, I generally keep my jazz fandom out of here because I know there isn't an audience for it.

There's no Coltrane album with the word Spring in it. Maybe you're thinking of A Love Supreme? Anyway, maybe you want to start a seperate thread for this on off-topic.