The Red Kiss thread

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Recoil:
<font color=yellow>I am sure there was a LOT of hidden messages in all the religious talk in this episode. More than I would be able to uncover myself, thats for sure. And yes, I think it was blatantly obvious that they are setting Jeremiah to be "the one" for this series. </font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

Well.

This episode was ok. Not great, but ok. It was actually pretty exciting when they were crawling underground searching for the vampire. To bad the bad guy turned out to be a total wimp at the end. Such an anticlimax.

And the kids. They were pretty good actors (as opposed to those in the captain iron episode, those had me cringe!) But the kids in the episode. I found their religious nut stuff tiresome and unbelievable. Kids don’t act that way. They are much more natural when it comes to the supernatural. You have to go to grownups to find that kind of wacky stuff.

Yeah.. Concerning the supposed religious references. Take it from me, a theology student. Those references weren’t worth a rats as. It was just religious techno babble. Nothing coherent or interesting. If they had wanted some cool references, I could have done them 10 times as good.

But otherwise, except from the critic above. I found the episode worth the 40 minutes. I was thinking about this "the one" business. If anyone of you watch Dark Angel, Max is also starting to turn into some kind of "the one". A genetic "the one" in her case, but there are religious overtones to that too. But what it is in our thinking and society today that brings out that kind of fascination with “holy the one” characters, that is a debate for another time.

Sleep tight.
/Com

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
<font color=yellow>The way the children's "religion" spread is reminiscent of Christianity and Islam. One of the great mysteries of history is that, according to (very) limited historical accounts, it seems as if Christianity sort of started in different places at around the same time, spread out over such a great distance that it's implausible that it could have been just a group of people traveling about preaching. The difficulties lie with it being a non-official underground cult, so that records are hard to come by.
</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

Yeah right! /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

/Com

 

[GKarsEye]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Kids don’t act that way. <hr></blockquote>

Kids growing up in a post-apocolyptic mess of a world without a stable society would act differently than we are used to.

Have you ever known kids who come from war ghettos or projects or abusive households? You'd be surprised how quickly a kid can learn to grow up.

As for the chant: even if they never explain it, I still don't see it as some great mystery. This sort of thing is remarkably easy to spread. In this case, there are many people like Jeremiah and Kurdy who just roam around the country. All it takes is a few of them to repeat what they've heard.

About the "holy one" thing: the reason it's such a common theme is very simple- the major religions that effect Western thought, mostly Christianity, are messianic.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
<font color=yellow>Kids growing up in a post- apocalyptic mess of a world without a stable society would act differently than we are used to.

Have you ever known kids who come from war ghettos or projects or abusive households? You'd be surprised how quickly a kid can learn to grow up.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

Yes I have. I have plenty of friends who comes from war ravaged zones of the earth. I have also worked on a home for "socially miss adapted" children. Children who has been taken from their families because their parents couldn't care for them. Their parents could be drug addicts, psychopaths or various types of abusers.

So I've lived with that kind of children. Yelled at them. Cried with them. Guarded them. Stayed with them when they couldn’t sleep at night. I know.

And I tell you, Kids don't act that way.

<font color=yellow><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>About the "holy one" thing: the reason it's such a common theme is very simple- the major religions that effect Western thought, mostly Christianity, are messianic.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

Oh.. I wasn't referring so much to the messianic figure as an example of religious figures. I was more thinking along the lines of "Why have religious figures at all??"

That is the question I am thinking about. I have only seen about 6 episodes of the old TOS series. But I haven’t see any religious "the one" figures running around. Kirk solves his problem with guts, brawn and brain. That series seems to be completely modernistic. Even the TNG series which is a bit more a post-modern product shunnes “the one” theme pretty hard. Yes, Picard is a hero, but nothing more.

But when you look at DS9 and B5 they have much more of an elaborate mythology. Sisco is a “the one” of the prophets. And “the one” theme in B5 is 3 fold. So what has changed? I have a pretty good idea, as you can see I have already labeled TOS modern and DS9 post modern. But right now I am tired and will not dwell into those definitions any further. Another day.

/Com

 

[channe]

Mmm. Postmodernism.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Some definitions of post-modernism occasionally seem rather self-exclusive, so I would not count on that. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

 

[Theophilus]

>But when you look at DS9 and B5 they have much more of
>an elaborate mythology. Sisco is a “the one” of the
>prophets. And “the one” theme in B5 is 3 fold. So what has
>changed?

I don't know much about post-modernism, but in my estimation what has changed is that they got better writers on DS9, and a WHOLE lot better writer on B5. And good writers don't limit themselves in any way when they are creating a story. (Of course, I actually thought the religious parts of DS9 were it's weakest areas, but that's neither here nor there.) And it looks like Trek is back to sorry writers. Did anyone see Enterprise last night? They used that same "Alien species isn't dangerous, just misunderstood" plotline that Trek has used 300 times already.

Whether you like it or not, religious themes are an enormous part of our "collective unconscious", to use a Jungian term. To just say that you're not going to write about religion any more ties your hands in a major way, and gives your writing a less authentic feel.

To the best of my knowledge, JMS is an atheist, but he's a smart enough cookie to know that religious themes make for great literature.

 

[grendel]

[*] Where did the children's chant come from and what did it mean originally?

Just Jungian archetypes rearing their ancient heads from the pool of "collective unconsciouness" examples are the ,Self ,Animus and The Shadow.
[*] Were the stories about God and Heaven passed around by word of mouth or is it just a common assumption that humans make in times like this?

comfort is where you find it, or maybe some members of Generation Alpha are telepathic
[*] Does it really help people when they drink children's blood or is it just a sign that they are desperate enough to try anything?

Antibodies are proteinaceous, they get digested(except in nursing infants)
This idea has a hideous parallel in the real world.The belief ,in some African countries ,that sex with a virgin will cure HIV.allowing that very real monster to spread even further.
[*] What kind of blood disease did Magyar have and why did he think it was related to the Big Death

As a guess.. Porphyria produces skin lesions(likeBD) photosensitivity(great if you want to be mistaken for a vampire) erratic behavior and reportedly a craving for iron containing compounds (hemoglobin)?
[/LIST]

Another evil thought that I had but haven't posted on my site is ... what if the stories and myths about God and Heaven were planted by those in VS? Brainwash the young kids so they can manipulate them easier later on. Kinda like a low level Vorlon trick? I admit it is a far fetched speculation but I just had to put it out there. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

A Vorlon trick borrowed from the Ben Gesserit

 

[josh3dmaker]

I liked this episode, because I have been wanting to see more of the mythology and religion that would emerge after such a terrible tragedy.

I read a news article a long time ago, that someone had posted on a message board and JMS had replied to. The article was about the mythology invented by homeless children in Miami, and it I think that it is similar to what goes on in this episode.

You can check out the article at:
http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/1997-06-05/feature.html/1/index.html

Please read it, I think it may be one of the most moving news articles I have ever read.

 

[channe]

There's a song...

"Miss Mary Mack, Mack Mack
All dressed in black, black, black
With silver buttons, buttons, buttons
All down her back, back, back
She jumped so high, high, high
She reached the sky, sky, sky
And she never came back, back, back
Miss Mary Mack, Mack, Mack."

I know somebody in California who's my age and who grew up with that rhyme. They never heard it anywhere but on the playground - no TV, no nothing. Just from their peers. Me either - that's the only place I heard it.

And yet, we both sang it verbatim, same tune.

We thought it was so eerie that we sang the one about the elephants jumping over the fence.

And the one that went "Hell-o Operator, please give me number nine, and if you disconnect me, I'll chop off your behind the refrigerator there was a piece of glass..."

Verbatim.

I don't know about all of you, but I'll buy it when JMS writes that kid thing in.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by channe:
<font color=yellow>I don't know about all of you, but I'll buy it when JMS writes that kid thing in.</font color=yellow><hr></blockquote>

My problem is not with the children making myths. Much in the same way as that very interesting article showed. Humanity has been making myths and stories for as long as we have been here.

My problem is with how the kids acted. They didn't act like ordinary kids of today, as would be expected. But they didn't either act like all those torn kids I have met in my life. They acted... wrong... in some way.. It is hard to define it. My gut feeling just say that kids don't act that way. It felt false. Perhaps it was just that the kid actors weren't the best. But it must be hard to find good child actors...

well well...

/Com