The Techno-mages trilogy - answers & spoilers

[n_stock]

I was listening to Babylon Podcast #63 with special guest Jeanne Cavelos author of the Techno-mage trilogy and she cleared up the following items about the trilogy that fans have argued about since it was released:

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1. How the mages got there technology - stolen or given? It's been awhile since I read both the books and the Crusade script "End of the Line" but in the trilogy the Circle (I think that's the name) is continually given Shadow tech by the Shadows to add more mages to the order; whereas, in the unpublished script Gideon finds out the mages stole the technology at one time from the Shadows. Keep in mind that she says in the outline Joe said who the tech came from, but not how the mages got it. Which one's right according to Cavelos? The latter because she says she wasn't given Joe's unpublished scripts. She also said she still likes her reason better, but it's his universe so that's what happened.

2. Was there a shield around Z'ha'dum before the Whitestar crashed into the planet, and was Galen even there? The answer to both questions is yes. Why? Because it was in Joe's outline. Now, with that said, Cavelos did say that the Eye was her idea; Joe just had Galen disabling the shield to allow the Whitestar to crash into the main city.

3. Is there a conflict between how old Cavelos and Peter David represent Gwynn, Finian, and Kane in relation to Galen? David describes them as cloister mages but according to the Techo-mage trilogy the same three mages are given the tech at the same time Galen is and he's a full blown Techo-mage by this point. David was apparently going to write the three as newbies, but Cavelos filled him in to her story line so then they became "cloister mages." What does this mean? Well, "cloister" just means seclusion and refers back to monasticism. In other words Kane, etc. were secluded from the outer world and couldn't develop into full Mages because of it.

Question left unasked:

4. While she was praised, and rightly so, for her work overlapping "The Geometry of Shadows" with her books nobody brought up the whole thing about the decoy ship and the real ship with Techo-mages. This was the most glaring omission in my mind, but KoshN has in the past shared his correspondence with her about this issue and she maintains there's no contradiction and explains over the course of the correspondence that she should have done a better job of explaining the events more thoroughly for readers. Since it wasn't asked I would still assume this would be her explanation.

One interesting note is that Joe gave her a 15 page outline for the whole trilogy and she says he real didn't modify any of her written work. This, of course, doesn't mean her book is correct about how the Techo-mages got the technology, but it is interesting nevertheless. There's more to the interview I just thought summarizing some of the statements on more controversial topics surrounding the books. The rest can be heard here: http://www.babylonpodcast.com/

 

[KoshN]

I was listening to Babylon Podcast #63 with special guest Jeanne Cavelos author of the Techno-mage trilogy and she cleared up the following items about the trilogy that fans have argued about since it was released:

S

P

O

I

L

E

R

S

1. How the mages got there technology - stolen or given? It's been awhile since I read both the books and the Crusade script "End of the Line" but in the trilogy the Circle (I think that's the name) is continually given Shadow tech by the Shadows to add more mages to the order; whereas, in the unpublished script Gideon finds out the mages stole the technology at one time from the Shadows. Keep in mind that she says in the outline Joe said who the tech came from, but not how the mages got it. Which one's right according to Cavelos? The later because she says she wasn't given Joe's unpublished scripts. She also said she still likes her reason better, but it's his universe so that's what happened.

The whole "stole the tech" thing came from that Earthforce officer, Major Lee. Who's to say he isn't full of it (BS, that is)? I like Jeanne's reason, and it is not necessarily in conflict with JMS's.

LEE
Captain, where do you think the technomages got all that advanced technology? Technology so advanced it looks like magic … ships that have a mind of their own … personal control systems that are merged right into their own bodies. It’s organic tech, light years beyond anything anyone has got. Shadow tech, Captain.

Major Lee is correct, right up to there, but then he goes on, and the following could be BS to make Gideon distrust Galen.

Stolen. Same as ours. That’s why they left known space during the war. They weren’t running from the Shadows. They were running from us. Because we wanted what they had … and they wouldn’t share.

Jeanne's whole backstory of the Mages and the Shadows is a good one. It makes sense. I say Lee's full of crap. If the mages stole it, why is this trilogy The "Passing of the Techno-mages"? i.e. Why can't they make more of the tech.? If they only got it from the Shadows once, did they steal truckloads of it, or are they capable of making more? A large part of the trilogy is that they can't make more, and that the mages do not fully understand the tech, and that the making of it is ghastly (in the Dilgar anti-agapic sort of way). Living (Narn, Minbari, Centauri, Humans, etc.) beings are used (consumed) as raw materials to make the tech. For more tech to be made, some sentient must die.

Another large part of the trilogy is that the mages are running from the Shadows, because the mages are WEAPONS that the Shadows want to use in the upcomng Shadow Wars. Mages are to the Shadows as Telepaths are to the Vorlons, weapons to use in Shadow Wars. The mages don't want to be killed off fighting somebody else's war. They value themselves and their contributions. They are trying to impose ORDER (a Vorlon concept) on themselves, and resist the Shadow programming that predisposes them toward conflict. They don't want to fight on the side of chaos. So, they leave. Makes sense. If they stay, the Vorlons and the Shadows will be against them.

2. Was there a shield around Z'ha'dum before the Whitestar crashed into the planet, and was Galen even there? The answer to both questions is yes. Why? Because it was in Joe's outline. Now, with that said, Cavelos did say that the Eye was her idea; Joe just had Galen disabling the shield to allow the Whitestar to crash into the main city.

Again, I like Jeanne's idea better. She fleshed it out, and if JMS is smart, he'll adopt it into B5 canon. The Eye (borrowed from Lord of the Rings) is more than a simple shield. It's a control mechanism that has many uses, including the one Ivanova saw at Sigma 957 while she was in the Great Machine of Epsilon 3, and the one that Ivanova, Lennier, Delenn and Lyta encountered at Z'ha'dum in Hour of the Wolf.

3. Is there a conflict between how old Cavelos and Peter David represent Gwynn, Finian, and Kane in relation to Galen? David describes them as cloister mages but according to the Techo-mage trilogy the same three mages are given the tech at the same time Galen is and he's a full blown Techo-mage by this point. David was apparently going to write the three as newbies, but Cavelos filled him in to her story line so then they became "cloister mages." What does this mean? Well, "cloister" just means seclusion and refers back to monasticism. In other words Kane, etc. were secluded from the outer world and couldn't develop into full Mages because of it.

In terms of their tech, implants, they were full mages. In terms of experience (3 years apprenticeship with their full mage implants, under the guidance of their teacher) they were lacking because they were stuck at the hiding place longer than Galen, hence they were behind Galen. Of course, they were also behind Galen because of his discovery of the seven, powerful root spells of the tech. Only Galen and Blaylock (who is now dead, in 2262), experienced those powers, and Galen was the one who showed Blaylock the way.

Question left unasked:

4. While she was praise, and rightly so, for her work overlapping "The Geometry of Shadows" with her books nobody brought up the whole thing about the decoy ship and the real ship with Techo-mages. This was the most glaring omission in my mind, but KoshN has in the past shared his correspondence with her about this issue and she maintains there's no contradiction and explains over the course of the correspondence that she should have done a better job of explaining the events more thoroughly for readers. Since it wasn't asked I would still assume this would be her explanation.

Her BIGGEST screwup was WHERE the Ondavi EXPLODED (between B5 and its jumpgate). We never heard or saw ANYTHING about that in The Geometry of Shadows and yes it IS a screwup. Something like that, happening at the time of the episode, WOULD have been mentioned in the episode. What she said was

I suppose that in the book I could have had some announcement
over the loudspeaker on the Crystal Cabin that their jump would
be delayed by an hour . . . I guess I just figured people could
insert that on their own, and I didn't want to break the mood.

Delayed an hour to allow for cleaning up the wreckage of the ship we never saw/heard explode between B5 and the jumpgate, the Ondavi. From the book, the Ondavi was minutes ahead of the Crystal Cabin leaving the station. They were in sight of each other. HOWEVER, there's a much better and simpler way to handle it. Have the Ondavi explode in hyperspace far enough away from B5 for them not to notice, and eliminate the reactions of those on B5 to the explosion (Londo, Vir, Sheridan, etc.) Then, the book would not conflict with The Geometry of Shadows. Unfortunately, it looks like she still just doesn't "get" it.

We were there on B5, witnessing the events of The Geometry of Shadows at the time the Ondavi would have exploded between B5 and the jumpgate. We were with Sheridan when Corwin contacted him about the mage ship (the Crystal Cabin) departure. If the Ondavi was a few minutes ahead of the Crystal Cabin, between B5 and the gate, we'd have heard about the explosion. No doubt about it.


Also, what did Elric say in The Geometry of Shadows?

Elric: "That is why we are going away, to preserve that knowledge."
Sheridan: "From what?"
Elric: "There is a storm coming, a black and terrible storm. We would not have out knowledge lost or used to ill purpose."

That fits with Cavelos' story in the Technomage trilogy..

One interesting note is that Joe gave her a 15 page outline for the whole trilogy and she says he real didn't modify any of her written work. This, of course, doesn't mean her book is correct about how the Techo-mages got the technology,

It SHOULD mean that the books are correct. JMS had the opportunity to have input to the books, and if they were in conflict with what he wanted, he should have corrected the books. If he didn't correct the books for large things like how the mages got their tech, and the book is not in conflict with produced and aired episodes, the book explanation SHOULD be adopted as canon. I mean that's a large part of the books, and according to JMS they are canon (except maybe in minor details), but this is NOT minor.


If JMS comes out later and contradicts the books in a large way like how the mages got their tech, it's just plain sloppy and unprofessional on his part.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

The whole "stole the tech" thing came from that Earthforce officer, Major Lee. Who's to say he isn't full of it (BS, that is)? I like Jeanne's reason, and it is not necessarily in conflict with JMS's.

From the words of the Major Lee people assume that the Techno-mages stole the technology in the past. Everything is compliant if "The Geometry of Shadows" was when the tech is stolen.

We could be in a medieval feudal situation where a noble held land in return for becoming a knight and fighting for the king. When the war came these officers of the Shadow's military deserted.

 

[KoshN]

From the words of the Major Lee people assume that the Techno-mages stole the technology in the past. Everything is compliant if "The Geometry of Shadows" was when the tech is stolen.

Nope, because that would be in violation of large sections of the book and the mage backstory. This is the 333rd convocation, and the mages have been around for 1000 years.

 

[KoshN]

I was listening to Babylon Podcast #63 with special guest Jeanne Cavelos author of the Techno-mage trilogy and she cleared up the following items about the trilogy that fans have argued about since it was released:

S

P

O

I

L

E

R

S

1. How the mages got there technology - stolen or given? It's been awhile since I read both the books and the Crusade script "End of the Line" but in the trilogy the Circle (I think that's the name) is continually given Shadow tech by the Shadows to add more mages to the order; whereas, in the unpublished script Gideon finds out the mages stole the technology at one time from the Shadows. Keep in mind that she says in the outline Joe said who the tech came from, but not how the mages got it. Which one's right according to Cavelos? The later because she says she wasn't given Joe's unpublished scripts.

Then explain this:
http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-329

From: jmsatb5ATaolDOTcom (Jms at B5)
Subject: ATTN JMS: Crusade scripts & technomage trilogy
To: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Date: 6/6/2000 6:02:00 AM
No Thread


>I read the two Crusade scripts on Bookface last night. Wow. Please tell
>me that Del Rey and/or Jeanne Cavelos were provided with those scripts
>as part of the prep work for the technomage trilogy.

Yup.


jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
B5 Official Fan Club at:
http://www.thestation.com
(all message content (c) 2000 by
synthetic worlds, ltd., permission
to reprint specifically denied to
SFX Magazine)

The Crusade scripts on Bookface.com were the unpublished scripts.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Nope, because that would be in violation of large sections of the book and the mage backstory. This is the 333rd convocation, and the mages have been around for 1000 years.

I know that the Techno-mages have been around for a 1,000 years but that does not mean that they stole the technology 1,000 years ago. They could have been assigned the weapons as officers in the Shadow Military. The Shadows simply did not care what the Techno-mages did with the weapons between wars. The next war is starting so its time to call up the reservists and the weapons they have been holding. Instead of reporting for duty they ran away and took the weapons with them. That taking is the theft.

 

[n_stock]

Quote:
From: jmsatb5ATaolDOTcom (Jms at B5)
Subject: ATTN JMS: Crusade scripts & technomage trilogy
To: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Date: 6/6/2000 6:02:00 AM
No Thread


>I read the two Crusade scripts on Bookface last night. Wow. Please tell
>me that Del Rey and/or Jeanne Cavelos were provided with those scripts
>as part of the prep work for the technomage trilogy.

Yup.


jms

(jmsatb5@aol.com)
B5 Official Fan Club at:
http://www.thestation.com
(all message content (c) 2000 by
synthetic worlds, ltd., permission
to reprint specifically denied to
SFX Magazine)

I knew that quote was around I just didn't get it . Anyway, I summarized what Cavelos said in the interview; which you can listen to. Maybe she just forgot what she had access to at the time. I didn't personally interview her, but if I had and she said Joe didn't show me the "End of Line" script I would've brought up Joe's quote.

As for the rest of what I said, I was merely posting some of the more interesting revelations relating to the books and setting up the arguments for and against the books being accurate. I agree with you KoshN that Cavelos got the storyline right and a lot of the "objections" to certain points are not contradictions like with the Maj. Lee stuff. However, SHE said the two diverged not me.

As for Z'ha'dum, I think Cavelos did a wonderful job with that part and when I first encountered the debate - many years ago - about the whole shield thing I didn't see the problem with it. If anything her statements should end the debate because the whole debate depended on Cavelos making the entire thing up which she didn't. She just figured out how Galen turned off the shield, but his presence on Za'ha'dum and the fact that there was a shield came from Joe.

 

[puzzle]

Instead of reporting for duty they ran away and took the weapons with them. That taking is the theft.

Well, since you can't properly steal yourself, it was obviously a patent and copyright dispute. Bloody bugs and their concept of intellectual property.

Sillyness set aside, from what I remember of the books, it has become my impression that tehcnomages were beneficiaries of a supply agreement, which very few of their members were privy to. They certainly didn't seem to have a "factory" like existed on Z'ha'dum, of nastily transforming humanoid creatures into various components.

Since the implants were alive, I would think they were "perishable", and couldn't be stocked in advance for 1000 years. Though it would depend on whether their life was possible to suspend, and whether they were life of Shadows' own kind (that is, probably indefinite in span) or life of the kind their unwilling donors had been.

That technomages died like other humanoids, and their implants apparently died with them, would certainly suggest the latter, though imply that freezing might be possible as a means of storage (whether freezing would stop a Shadow system, is a far more uncertain issue, given their quirks where it comes to behaving like proper matter).

Who the other end of the supply agreement was, is unclear. Could have been some Drakh, since the Drakh certainly knew enough about technomages to consider them a great danger.

Anyway, it appears that technomages started suspecting not only their ability to maintain organizational cohesion, but possibly their own integrity (after all, who gave them their implants could have included an "off" switch) and pulled a hasty disappearance trick.

Whether an "off" switch really existed is questionable though, since according to the books, some quite authentic Shadows died when confronted by Galen's new spell. If those were real Shadows, and there existed an "off" switch to a technomage's abilities, they were certainly blatanly uninformed, slow, or unwilling to use it.

(To be honest, they seemed blatantly slow to defensively dematerialize too, and ability to accomplish that seems a fairly certain point among their skills, given that they weren't known to open doors for passage, or bump into things, and the apparent fact that they wouldn't even fit through an average B5 door. As such, I'd have guessed a Shadow intending to dodge a weapon would rapidly switch to their not-so-material state, and if really concerned, take a little unpredictable jump through solid matter.)

Their real presence of course, would seem hard to ascertain, considering that manipulating another creature's mind seems also within their reach. When the Eye was already destroyed (or already rebuilt?) there was something at Z'ha'dum which caused a shipful of humanoids, including a capable telepath, to behave counter to their nature, and lose control of what they were intending to do.

If such was their ability from orbital distance, deceiving a single humanoid in close proximity to produce a faithful illusion of presence, might be about as difficult to them as talking is to us.

Except of course if they need extra preparation to perform such manipulation, which was present on Z'ha'dum after the nuclear event, but not present before it (to stop both Sheridan and Galen), nor present on Thenothk, to stop Galen.

There are, of course, some more variables in the game on Z'ha'dum before the nuclear blast. Besides an ordinary human and a technomage, lots of Shadows, their allies, and the Eye, one and half more beings were present. There was Lorien, who certainly must have known much about its long-time neighbours - possibly enough to distract them. And there was a refugee part of Kosh, for whom they were old enemies, and who could have also known enough.

Without interference from either of those, I'm inclined to suspect either Galen, Sheridan or both would have experienced "convenient" shortcomings in their mental capacities which would have thwarted their actions well before anything of consequence (or at least, the White Star would have met something before reaching ground level).

Unless, now this is strange... unless the Shadows were, for whatever reason, willing to lose a city. Not something I'd put past them, but not something I'd expect. They were depicted as not keen on getting hurt, and even less keen on self-sacrifice. Unless of course they weren't going to lose their own lives, but were merely gambling with the city and its non-Shadow inhabitants. Which is not something to put past them either.

Of course, it could have been an ill coincidence of timing for them - playing two games in parallel, and witnessing a fresh core of the Eye break, right when it was needed to take action to fend off a ship. But that still leaves the question of what the telepathic influence after the Eye's demise was, and why it wasn't effective at interfering then. Perhaps Galen was coincidentally protected by being inside the Eye at the moment, and Sheridan by having a Vorlon hitch-hiker along?

Many options...

 

[KoshN]

I can't believe it. I posted a detailed reply to 90% of this post, and it's gone. Argh!!!!

Sillyness set aside, from what I remember of the books, it has become my impression that tehcnomages were beneficiaries of a supply agreement, which very few of their members were privy to.

Probably only known to the five members of The Circle, and a few mages outside the Circle (who are sworn to secrecy, e.g. Alwyn, Galen, etc.). The penalty for violating that secret is flaying (surgical removal of the tech.) which means certain death unless it happens very soon after a mage first receives his/her tech.

Since the implants were alive, I would think they were "perishable", and couldn't be stocked in advance for 1000 years. Though it would depend on whether their life was possible to suspend, and whether they were life of Shadows' own kind (that is, probably indefinite in span) or life of the kind their unwilling donors had been.

Since the mage tech was grown partly from the mage's own DNA, that would be impossible unless you were also going to freeze the mages for use in the future.

Who the other end of the supply agreement was, is unclear. Could have been some Drakh, since the Drakh certainly knew enough about technomages to consider them a great danger.

No, the Drakh were flunkies, workers, drones. Any agreement would have been with the Shadows themselves.

Anyway, it appears that technomages started suspecting not only their ability to maintain organizational cohesion, but possibly their own integrity (after all, who gave them their implants could have included an "off" switch) and pulled a hasty disappearance trick.

The mages are predisposed to chaos ("quick to anger", fights), though they don't know it's because of Shadow programming in the tech. As mentioned above, very few know of the Shadow connection.

Whether an "off" switch really existed is questionable though,

No, it's not. Burrell discovered a transceiver at the base of her spine, and experimented with sending it signals and in doing so, permanently screwed up more and more of her own tech. All mages had that same transceiver. The Shadows had a frequency which temporarily turned off a mage's tech. via that transceiver. Remember when Galen was lured into that room, and his tech was shut off? The trouble is, it shut off all mage's tech, including Elizar's, because he was also in the room. It seemed that the Shadows did not have a portable or particular mage specific method for shutting off a mage's tech.

... since according to the books, some quite authentic Shadows died when confronted by Galen's new spell. If those were real Shadows, and there existed an "off" switch to a technomage's abilities, they were certainly blatanly uninformed, slow, or unwilling to use it.

Shadows did not incorporate their tech. into their own bodies. They used others for that purpose. That was for lower beings, not themselves. The trouble was when their weapons, the mages turned on them. Otherwise, they'd have been able to deflect Galens Spells of Destruction like Elizar did (for awhile).

(To be honest, they seemed blatantly slow to defensively dematerialize too, and ability to accomplish that seems a fairly certain point among their skills, given that they weren't known to open doors for passage, or bump into things, and the apparent fact that they wouldn't even fit through an average B5 door. As such, I'd have guessed a Shadow intending to dodge a weapon would rapidly switch to their not-so-material state, and if really concerned, take a little unpredictable jump through solid matter.)

They don't dematerialize. They cloak. Remember when they were in Morden's cell? They didn't drift through the floor. They stood on the floor while invisible to the human eye. Remember when they were accompanying Morden down the hall when Talia sensed them? They were walking alongside Morden. Remember when Londo had his two palace guards shoot Morden's two Shadows? They were invisible, but the Centauri PPG rifles killed them. I guess they're just really good at not bumping into beings who can't see them. (The comical aspects abound here.)

Their real presence of course, would seem hard to ascertain, considering that manipulating another creature's mind seems also within their reach. When the Eye was already destroyed (or already rebuilt?) there was something at Z'ha'dum which caused a shipful of humanoids, including a capable telepath, to behave counter to their nature, and lose control of what they were intending to do.

If such was their ability from orbital distance, deceiving a single humanoid in close proximity to produce a faithful illusion of presence, might be about as difficult to them as talking is to us.

That was the Eye, which was shadowtech, not the Shadows themselves. Sure, they designed and probably built the Eye, and maybe it highly amplified their control abilities, but it seemed that strictly by themselves, sans their tech, they weren't capable of much, except invisibility and attacking an outnumbered Vorlon (another energy being) who wasn't going to defend itself (lest B5 be damaged or destroyed).

There are, of course, some more variables in the game on Z'ha'dum before the nuclear blast. Besides an ordinary human and a technomage, lots of Shadows, their allies, and the Eye, one and half more beings were present. There was Lorien, who certainly must have known much about its long-time neighbours - possibly enough to distract them. And there was a refugee part of Kosh, for whom they were old enemies, and who could have also known enough.

Without interference from either of those, I'm inclined to suspect either Galen, Sheridan or both would have experienced "convenient" shortcomings in their mental capacities which would have thwarted their actions well before anything of consequence (or at least, the White Star would have met something before reaching ground level).

They never expected Galen to be able to overcome the Shadow programming in the Eye. When he became one with the tech., it was over. The Shadows no longer had any control over him, and he had control of their greatest weapon.

Unless, now this is strange... unless the Shadows were, for whatever reason, willing to lose a city. Not something I'd put past them, but not something I'd expect. They were depicted as not keen on getting hurt, and even less keen on self-sacrifice. Unless of course they weren't going to lose their own lives, but were merely gambling with the city and its non-Shadow inhabitants. Which is not something to put past them either.

It seemed to me that the Shadows did not value the individual Shadows. In that way (among others), they were the opposite of the Vorlons.

Of course, it could have been an ill coincidence of timing for them - playing two games in parallel, and witnessing a fresh core of the Eye break, right when it was needed to take action to fend off a ship. But that still leaves the question of what the telepathic influence after the Eye's demise was, and why it wasn't effective at interfering then. Perhaps Galen was coincidentally protected by being inside the Eye at the moment,

Galen was one with the tech of the Eye. He freed the tech in the Eye. It was on HIS side.

and Sheridan by having a Vorlon hitch-hiker along?

That may have protected Sheridan from the telepathic influence, but they wanted Sheridan to join their side of his own free will.

 

[Pinky Narfanek]

They don't dematerialize. They cloak. Remember when they were in Morden's cell? They didn't drift through the floor. They stood on the floor while invisible to the human eye. Remember when they were accompanying Morden down the hall when Talia sensed them? They were walking alongside Morden. Remember when Londo had his two palace guards shoot Morden's two Shadows? They were invisible, but the Centauri PPG rifles killed them. I guess they're just really good at not bumping into beings who can't see them. (The comical aspects abound here.)

The Shadows have shown some sort of telepathic ability (or at least the ability to force themselves into another's mind and take direct and deliberate control) and were probably insanely powerful in that regard. I prefer to think of them as having some sort of "collision avoidance" system that urges folks to move to one side in order to let them pass and then blank the impulse from memory.

It may not even be a consious ability or it could be another piece of bio-tech.

 

[vacantlook]

Welcome to the board Pinky Narfanek; you've got a wicked screenname!!

 

[puzzle]

I can't believe it. I posted a detailed reply to 90% of this post, and it's gone. Argh!!!!

I've seen that effect, and it's annoying. I think it happens when one composes a post for long (long enough for the HTTP session to expire). As a precaution, when posting something long, I select+copy all text before I submit the post.

Since the mage tech was grown partly from the mage's own DNA, that would be impossible unless you were also going to freeze the mages for use in the future.

Wow, and I had entirely forgotten that detail. Sure enough, that would speak very strongly in favour of a continuous supply of implants from their makers.

No, the Drakh were flunkies, workers, drones. Any agreement would have been with the Shadows themselves.

Initial agreement, likely. Subsequent delivery of goods, seems however contrary to their secretive nature. Getting stuff delivered "as previously agreed" from a fellow humanoid like a Drakh, would be far less thought-provoking for technomage representatives in the deal (some of whom may not have known what they were messing with, or even known the cost of producing implants) than getting deliveries by invisible bugs from a clearly very different technical level.

The latter might cause people to ask questions, and Shadows don't seem too fond of others asking questions about them. They seem to prefer if others focus on what they really want.

No, it's not. Burrell discovered a transceiver at the base of her spine, and experimented with sending it signals and in doing so, permanently screwed up more and more of her own tech. All mages had that same transceiver.

Another thing I had forgotten. Probably because it seemed so very unlikely that none would use it to defend themselves.

Shadows did not incorporate their tech. into their own bodies. They used others for that purpose. That was for lower beings, not themselves. The trouble was when their weapons, the mages turned on them. Otherwise, they'd have been able to deflect Galens Spells of Destruction like Elizar did (for awhile).

In that question, I've always tended to gravitate towards a somewhat different conclusion, since even invisibility (not to speak of ability to switch material state) is a lot to ask from any biology. I've always thought that Shadows themselves were not fully biological creatures anymore... and suspected that somewhere along the path, they merged with technology. It seems a convenient explanation for them considering it a path others should follow.

They don't dematerialize. They cloak. Remember when they were in Morden's cell? They didn't drift through the floor. They stood on the floor while invisible to the human eye.

Indeed, they sure seemed to stand on the floor. Yet how to explain the difficult problem of Shadow-sized creatures getting in and out of compartments through narrow, humanoid-sized doors - sometimes apparently several of such creatures, during insanely short time, while a door would be very likely blocked by a humanoid, or already closing behind one?

I guess they're just really good at not bumping into beings who can't see them. (The comical aspects abound here.)

Comical aspects on the necessities of Shadow lifestyle on B5 do indeed strike heavy here. But to me, the level of comedy they would have to endure bursts all meters, and suggests one of two explanations:

a) these critters are fast as lightning, and can perform calculations / movements in a split second which humanoids take many, many seconds to carry out

b) and potentially, unless in addition to being extremely quick, they can somehow decrease their profile to fit through narrow spaces, they seem to have a way of going through walls

I tend to think option B must be true. Not only are Shadows fairly sizable personally, but a warrior creature of their making, which snuck on the ship Copernicus, seems to have accomplished: 1) ambush of Earth soldiers on the moon through whatever cover they had or took 2) getting aboard Copernicus without making a hull breach 3) getting off the moon to somehow reach Copernicus to start with and 4) managing to walk around B5 without apparent need to clear way.

I think the only way to explain that is ability to go (at least somewhat) immaterial, or at least ability to switch back and forth between hyperspace and normal space. If one manages that, standing on the floor, instead of halfway through it, for a conversation partner's convenience, would be a technicality.

Remember when Londo had his two palace guards shoot Morden's two Shadows? They were invisible, but the Centauri PPG rifles killed them.

Another thing which seems to invoke a contradiction. If they were fast enough and alert enough to casually dash through a closing door sized twice smaller than them, in triplicate too... and casually avoid anything which could lead to their detection...

...then I suspect their perspective must have been seeing palace guards *slowly* raise guns, *slowly* point guns at them, and *slowly* depress the triggers, after which projectiles started, at *modest* speed, floating towards them. If those were the same creatures, and not taking drugs, I'd imagine the palace guards would have got their heads handed to Londo before blinking an eye.

If oppositely, they aren't extremely fast, but do go through matter, the question arises whether they can also "go through" an incoming projectile or a whole explosion unharmed. If they can "go through" multiple wavelengths of light undetected, can they also become transparent to multiple wavelengths of IR and gamma photons? Or a volley of neutrons, which are only particles too, albeit with standing mass? Or a volley of plasma, which is only particles - just particles with electrical charge.

And that would raise the question of whether Londo's guards actually got them, whether Sheridan's PPG shots really mattered to them... and last of all, whether the nuclear blast really mattered to them either.

That was the Eye, which was shadowtech, not the Shadows themselves.

It certainly could have been the Eye. If one assumes they were quick to rebuild it. And they didn't seem casually telepathic on other occasions... except once before, when Ivanova was exploring space with the Great Machine, and once later, when they entered a telepathic conversation with Delenn at the battle of Coriana 6.

Sure, they designed and probably built the Eye, and maybe it highly amplified their control abilities, but it seemed that strictly by themselves, sans their tech, they weren't capable of much, except invisibility and attacking an outnumbered Vorlon (another energy being) who wasn't going to defend itself (lest B5 be damaged or destroyed).

It seems indeed that Kosh chose not to fight, and likely because of unwillingness to neither leave nor destroy the station. However, it seems excess to assume that Shadows were in their casual state when attacking it. Contrarily, it would seem a logical expectation that they'd have extensive preparation, just in case Kosh decided to change its mind, and there would be a full-blown battle inside a breaking Babylon 5.

It seemed to me that the Shadows did not value the individual Shadows. In that way (among others), they were the opposite of the Vorlons.

I think your assessment is right. They probably didn't value each other very highly. But their own hide, they did seem to value, for they didn't seem to fight their battles personally either.

 

[KoshN]

Nice avatar, BTW. Did you design it?

The Shadows have shown some sort of telepathic ability (or at least the ability to force themselves into another's mind and take direct and deliberate control) and were probably insanely powerful in that regard.

I'm drawing a blank. When have Shadow sentients shown this ability? In the B5 TV show, they've communicated with Morden through their chirps. I guess he probably has some sort of shadowtech translator in his brain, allowing him to understand them. We've seen The Eye have a telepathic ability, but I don't think we've ever seen Shadow sentients exhibit it.

In the Technomage trilogy, we've seen Shadows control Drakh, telepathically.

I prefer to think of them as having some sort of "collision avoidance" system that urges folks to move to one side in order to let them pass and then blank the impulse from memory.

It may not even be a consious ability or it could be another piece of bio-tech.

Not bad. I could accept that.

 

[KoshN]

Initial agreement, likely. Subsequent delivery of goods, seems however contrary to their secretive nature. Getting stuff delivered "as previously agreed" from a fellow humanoid like a Drakh, would be far less thought-provoking for technomage representatives in the deal (some of whom may not have known what they were messing with, or even known the cost of producing implants) than getting deliveries by invisible bugs from a clearly very different technical level.

"Casting Shadows" p. 126: Galen was under the impression that The Circle made the tech. So, to see Drakh delivering it, would probably raise some questions.

Another thing I had forgotten. Probably because it seemed so very unlikely that none would use it to defend themselves.


In that question, I've always tended to gravitate towards a somewhat different conclusion, since even invisibility (not to speak of ability to switch material state) is a lot to ask from any biology. I've always thought that Shadows themselves were not fully biological creatures anymore... and suspected that somewhere along the path, they merged with technology. It seems a convenient explanation for them considering it a path others should follow.

Hmm, that reminds me. The Shadows are energy beings like the Vorlons. The physical form we see, is their version of an encounter suit (See the beginning of "Invoking Darkness" when the three Shadows attack Kosh.), and that could be tech, which could be capable of invisibility. The Shadow version of the encounter suit doesn't seem anywhere near as tough as the Vorlon encounter suit (Remember what it took to destroy Ulkesh's encounter suit?).

Indeed, they sure seemed to stand on the floor. Yet how to explain the difficult problem of Shadow-sized creatures getting in and out of compartments through narrow, humanoid-sized doors - sometimes apparently several of such creatures, during insanely short time, while a door would be very likely blocked by a humanoid, or already closing behind one?

Pinky Narfanek has a good explanation.

And they didn't seem casually telepathic on other occasions... except once before, when Ivanova was exploring space with the Great Machine,

That was also The Eye.

and once later, when they entered a telepathic conversation with Delenn at the battle of Coriana 6.

And how much of that was Lorien? (I suspect it was 99.9% Lorien.)

It seems indeed that Kosh chose not to fight, and likely because of unwillingness to neither leave nor destroy the station. However, it seems excess to assume that Shadows were in their casual state when attacking it.

Casual state? They attacked Kosh directly, energy being vs. energy being. Remember the ropes of light? That was the Shadow sentient's natural form (like the Vorlon's squid-like form seen when Ulkesh emerged from his encountersuit and fought with B5 Security, the last piece of Kosh, Sheridan and Lorien.).

 

[Pinky Narfanek]

Eyes, Eyes, damn my eyes!



It's sometimes tough to tell, to my eyes anyway, just what is what in B5.