The tragedy of Londo Mollari

[AngelSummers]

Does anybody think he is a pitiful figure in B5 history? I think we all love him more than G'Kar in the first season when he was still a bumbly and jolly old ambassador from a peacock haired race. And then came Mr. Morden who elevated Londo to his wildest dreams. Which turned out to be his greatest nightmares.

The thing that made me pity him is that where Alfred Bester knows fully well what he is doing and relishes in it, Londo never actually intended to be responsible for the death of millions of Narns. His actual answer was that he wanted his people to become great again, a great empire or nation with a strong military and vast territory unlike its current decline. He didn't exactly specify conquest although it was probably in his mind, after all, how can you have a great Empire wihout conquest?

Throughout Season 2, I observed his change into a power hungry ambassador. Yet in his core, he was still a kind hearted old soul. Just before the attack on Quadrant 14 was revealed, he realised the horror of his decision when G'Kar came proposing peace and hope for their governments. It was evident all over his face the horror he had just done. Then after that, you could say he was swept up by currents of fate.

I really feel sorry for the old fellow. He got what he wanted but was devastated by the price paid by others for his dreams. Remember his face while Narn was being bombarded? It was sheer horror and repent. And he had to suppres it to the outside world less he lose his influence which to the Centauri, is equivalent to losing your head.

Strange isn't it? Outwardly a tyrant but inside, to quote Vir in Out of Darkness in the Centauri trilogy, <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>....what he did...was all too human. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No wonder he spent hours trying to figure out the hokey pokey.

Thoughts anyone?

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May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.

May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.

 

[Mondo Londo]

In one thread or another, we've pondered this topic any number of times -- but I don't suppose it'll hurt anyone to do it again!

Yes, Londo is the great tragic figure of the series. Often, he does not think through all of his actions -- and to be fair, there are times that no objective person could foresee to consequences of some of the things Londo put in motion.

By no means can he clain to be just an average Joe trying to muddle through life -- but I doubt he realized his actions would cost the lives of billions. And can any of us honestly say we would always do differently than Londo if in the same position?

I think what's really cool about Babylon 5 is that it gives us "real" characters. The characters have both great qualities and grave faults. Londo is probably the prime example.


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"What's up, Drakh?"

Michael Garibaldi

 

[Wyvern]

And, of course, it's just made so much worse by the events of the Centauri Trilogy.

Londo is, in my opinion, one of the greatest characters in all of fiction, because he was so completely against our expectations. From the start, we saw him as a good guy... a sad lonely man, but a good guy at heart. And we assumed that, in the end, he would become something greater. I don't think that anyone could have imagined that Londo would end up the way he did for the reasons he did.

But, of course, the opposite is true; G'Kar was an annoying yutz originally. Man, I despised him. And he was just as bad in the beginning (Literally, I mean "In the Beginning...

) "Oh, the Mimbari are wiping out your forces? Wonderful! Now we can get more money from you!!!"

And, of course, JMS planned that so well... Londo was just like us, so he HAD to be a good guy, right? G'kar was this icky reptile thing, so he HAD to be a bad guy, right?

I loved having all our assumptions turned on their heads...

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[AngelSummers]

I kinda loathed G'Kar afer watching "The Gathering" but as the first season went on, I felt that there was more to him than a war hungry Narn. Who would figure he would ally himself to Londo in Season 4 let alone forgive Londo for all his transgressions against his people?

the Centauri trilogy is one of the best books I have ever read. You guys should read it. Then you would know how truly great Londo was at the end. and G'Kar of course.

I love JMS. G'Kar and Londo was his best work ever.

What is the deal of the secret script? I never seen it. I heard its about where they both jump into bed together.

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May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.

May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.

 

[Jomar]

The secret script was the result of a joke Andreas and Peter played onJMS at one of the cons. They were on stage and told the audience not to clap when JMS came on stage. The result was JMS was so embarassed that in revenge he came up with this script where one of them was female (G'Kar) I think and they had a scene in bed together. He actually carried through on it for a couple of days of filming.

I believe more details are available at the Lurker's Guide if you do a search.

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I always seem to be diagonally parked in a parallel universe.

 

[taichidave]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AngelSummers:
What is the deal of the secret script? I never seen it. I heard its about where they both jump into bed together.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was a joke.

Andreas Katsulas played a practical joke on JMS at a con. In retaliation, JMS wrote a script that included G'Kar switching sexes (like some frogs do) and Londo and G'Kar doing the nasty, as it were. He sent this script to the cast, and there was an uproar. Castmates advised Andreas not to do it. Naturally, Andreas protested. JMS would have none of it, swearing up and down that it would be shot as is. He only revealed the joke at the last minute, so he could twist the knife as much as possible.

Just goes to show: Never piss a writer off.

ARGH! All that and I was beaten to the punch.

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"We are (not) all Kosh."

[This message has been edited by taichidave (edited November 28, 2001).]

 

[Kribu]

Hey, I liked G'Kar right from the start... a lot more than Londo, the old drunk. I guess I go for the arrogant creeps.

But yes, I felt great sympathy for Londo towards the end. I hated him passionately from mid-season 1 to... oh, I don't know, probably mid-season 3, but as he started to regret his actions more and more, I started feeling really sorry for him.

As I've said before, the one episode that really makes me cry is The Fall of Centauri Prime when Londo becomes emperor - it was just so sad.

And the Centauri trilogy - the poor guy!!

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"Narns, Humans, Centauri... we all do what we do for the same reason: because it seems like a good idea at the time." - G'Kar, Mind War
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com

 

[RW7427]

I like Londo. Inspite of the terrible things he has done, he does have some redeeming qualities about him. I also agree with the person who said earlier that he didn't quite comprehend the fact that he was responsible for the deaths of millions of Narns, and if he did, he sort of repressed any remorse about it because he was a patriot and wanted to return the Centauri people to past glory. He was willing to do that whatever the cost, even if it meant millions of Narns dying.

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Lorien: Who are you?
RW: The salad man.
Lorien: Why are you here?
RW: To be the salad ambassador.
Lorien: What do you want?
RW: Everyone to know the joys of salad.
Lorien: Do you have anything worth living for?
RW: Yes, my salad bars.

 

[GKarsEye]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kribu:
I guess I go for the arrogant creeps.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey baby, what are you doin' later?

Right. Anyway, Londo is such an amazing character, it makes me want to touch my toes and sing Bible psalms.

Here's my cute little pseudo-intellectual thingy: Londo is the B5 equivalent to Epimetheus, the Titan from Greek mythology for whom the Olympian gods created the perfect woman, Pandora, except she was a bit too nosey for her own good (heh, women) and popped open that Cracker-Jack box they gave her. Out flew the caramel covered popcorn kernels of Fear, Hate, Strife, and War, leaving behind the plastic Surprise Toy ring of Hope inside. Mmm... cracker jacks.

Epimetheus, whose name means "hind-thought", was brother to Prometheus, "forethought," who introduced fire to mankind. Likewise, this dichotomy exists betwixt Londo and G'Kar: Epimetheus and Prometheus, respectively.

Londo was too worried about past glories and faded memories to think about what would actually be better for everybody. Like Epimetheus, this weakness was exploited (Olympians = Shadows, the result of both actions bringing chaos into the world- Shadow War, Pandora's box).

Though G'Kar started out similarly, he came to become the Prometheus character (after being the Cassandra character for a bit- hee hee, more Greek mythology) by desiring an end to the destructive cycle of violence and supporting the Interstellar Alliance.

Also, John Sheridan is the Kermit the Frog character and Delenn is the Miss Piggy character. Or something. Goodnight.

Try saying "exists betwixt" 10 times fast.

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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

[This message has been edited by GKarsEye (edited November 28, 2001).]

 

[Wyvern]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RW7427:
He was willing to do that whatever the cost, even if it meant millions of Narns dying.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the word you're looking for is "Especially", not "even".

The Centauri view the Narns as the cause of all of their problems.

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[bakana]

JMS Speaks:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
Babylon 5... is a Rohrsharch test. An ink blot created by smashing actors, archetypes, saga-structure, myth and language against a sheet of paper, folding it, and bashing it a few times.
When you open it up and look inside, what you see is the saga closest to your heart and your experience.
Because like all the works mentioned a moment ago, B5 draws upon the same wellspring of myth, archetype, symbology, and dime store sociology that feeds all sagas, from the Illiad on through to the present.

Writers, science fiction writers in particular, are like the beggar in Alladin, who offered new lamps for old... we seize myths that have fallen out of currency and recast them in newer guise, dust them off and hope a genie emerges.
Our myths, the myths of Tolkien and Homer, of Heinlein and Mallory, are eternal; they exchange one name for another, cast off one mask and assume the next.
If you perceive their presence in Babylon 5, it is because we have courted the myth, not because we have echoed one of their names from another place.

King Lear vanishes into Londo, Cassandra peers out from behind the eyes of G'Kar, Galahad answers to the name Ivanova, the Oracle at Delphi is now wearing an encounter suit, and Sir Bedevere is... well, that would be telling.

So you're all right. And you're all wrong. Because it's all ACTUALLY based on the 1967 Young Juveniles novel "The Mad Scientists' Club."
And I'm actually channeling Eleanor Roosevelt. (Fortunately, I already have the wardrobe.)
Oh, yes... and I am the walrus, coo-coo ka choo....
jms
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

 

[Sinclair]

One of my favorite Londo moments is in the second season when the Technomages visit B5. I like the final encounter between Londo and the Elric:

Elric: I see a great hand reaching out of the stars. The hand is your hand. And I hear sounds, the sounds of billions of people calling your name.

Londo: My followers?

Elric: Your victims.

I wonder how much thought Londo actually gave this. He had a look of shock and surprise at Elric's response. Could this have been one of the moments where Londo realizes where he could be headed? Does this perhaps affect his decision-making later on?

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"I welcome you and present this place to you as a gift. I am called Valen, and we have much work ahead of us."
-Valen, War Without End Pt.2

 

[whitestar90]

When Londo was told by Elric and then by lady Morella about his future he could have changed his way but this demanded big changes and Lonodo only made little changes along the way.These changes weren't enough to prevent the future from happening, it was a tragedy, the rise and fall of Londo...

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"When it is time, come to this place, call our name, we will be here" -Walkers of Sigma957

 

[AngelSummers]

Strangely enough, all his real attempts to redeem himself happened at the end of his life, not on the way to his death. This was probably because he could do little anyway (drakh keeper) and only at the end did he start taking steps towards redemption.

G'Karseye, your intellectualism stuns me again. literally.

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May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.

May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.

 

[wipster]

In some ways, I feel the true story of B5 was the story of Londo and G'Kar. It was great in "In the Beginning" where the story was told from Londo's perspective (that DVD is *definitely* on my X-mas list...I can't wait!), as well as in "The Gathering."

What I want to know is, what was the eye that does not see (from Lady Morella's prediction)? Was it G'Kar? Was it the eye from S1 (which we never heard of again)? Was it mentioned in the trilogy and I just missed it (or forgot it, probably more likely)? I think it was G'Kar, but what's everyone else's opinion? Did JMS ever say?

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Wipster

"Live Long in Prosser"

 

[bakana]

Search the archives for "the Eye that does not see".

We had a long, detailed discussion of the subject a while back.

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The 3 most common elements in the Universe:
Hydrogen, Greed, Stupidity!

 

[AngelSummers]

Kinda confusing actually. According to the series as well as statements from JMS himself, the "eye that does not see" is G'Kar's eye which got plucked out by Cartagia.

But in the Centauri trilogy, Londo suddenly realised that the "eye" Lady Morella was telling him was not "eye" as in an orb but "I" as in "I want something". To save himself, he had to save himself which he did not see.

Confusing isn't it? I tend to lean toward the "I" refering to Londo rather than G'Kars' eye.

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May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.

May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.

 

[Kribu]

What makes it even more confusing in that case is that the Centauri use a similar-sounding word for "I" and "eye" as well as the English-speaking world does.

One possibility is that this is what Londo thinks. I mean, Londo figuring that the prophesy referring to "I" instead of "eye" is just that - what Londo thinks. Doesn't mean he's right.

I'm still thinking it was G'Kar's eye (and not just because that's what jms says). But it does have a very nice double meaning... guess we'll never know for sure.

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"Narns, Humans, Centauri... we all do what we do for the same reason: because it seems like a good idea at the time." - G'Kar, Mind War
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com

 

[Jade Jaguar]

I liked G'Kar from the beginning, and I don't think he was an arrogant creep. True, he was pushy and prideful, but that is a perfectly natural reaction for someone whose race had been very brutally oppressed, and only recently regained their freedom. I saw him as standing up fiercely for the rights of his people.

Londo I saw as a pompous windbag, a buffoon, and I didn't hate him, but I didn't like him either. But as his complexities revealed themselves, he grew on me -- like a wart. He is responsible for his actions, but I'm sure that when he answered Morden's question, he never envisioned the slaughter of so many Narns, and I don't believe he ever really wanted that either.



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You're speaking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Maid Marian
Fluently! Errol Flynn as Robin Hood
You're talking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Arabella Bishop
I trust I'm not obscure. Errol Flynn as Dr. Peter Blood

Pallindromes of the month: Snug was I, ere I saw guns.
Doom an evil deed, liven a mood.

 

[Kribu]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jade Jaguar:
I liked G'Kar from the beginning, and I don't think he was an arrogant creep.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, well, I didn't actually think that either.

I mean, he was arrogant alright but there was so much more to him than that, right from the beginning.

Even in Parliament of Dreams - sure, he was shown to be a creature with a shady past (to say the least) and somewhat out-of-the-ordinary taste in women, but he was also shown to have a sense of humour and to have courage (when it mattered) and pride, not just arrogance.

And of course, by Mind War at the latest, it should have been quite obvious that he was... not quite what he seemed to be at first.

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"Narns, Humans, Centauri... we all do what we do for the same reason: because it seems like a good idea at the time." - G'Kar, Mind War
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com