The Valen and Excalibar

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 25, 2002

I haven't seen Legend of the Rangers yet (not having cable will do that), but I'd thought I toss this out here:

I've been reading a bit about the Valen in Rangers, and how it's supposed to be a less-than-successful melding of Earth and Minbari technologies. The Excalibar, seen in Crusade two years later, is a melding of Vorlon, Minbari and Earth technologies. My thought was this: was Valen Sheridan's test run for the Victory-class ships (you know, seeing if Minbari and Earth tech can work together before adding in Vorlon)?

The only problem I can think of is that the two Victory-Class prototypes took four years to build, which would put it two years before Legend of the Rangers. Did the movie mention when Valen was built?

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It's the quiet ones who change the universe. The loud ones only take the credit.

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 25, 2002

No, it did not. All it said was that it was new. Fresh off the assembly line, so to speak.

Joseph DeMartino · Jan 25, 2002

The Victory-class destroyers were the fruits of a joint Minbari Government/Military and EarthGov project, under the aegis of the IA. The Valen is a ship built by and for the Rangers for their own use. That it incorporates Human design elements doubtless reflects that fact that a lot of Humans (many of them ex-EarthForce no doubt, in the wake of the Civil War) have joined the Rangers.

One thing people keep missing in comparing the film to the rest of the B5 universe is that the Rangers are not and were not the Minbari military. They were always a separate group (elite troops during the last Shadow War, intelligence and covert ops teams the rest of the time.) The Rangers were not much involved, for instance, in the Earth-Minbar war, which was mostly a Warrior Caste show. They don't use the same ships or really involve themselves in the same things.

Sheridan wants the IA to have the biggest stick on the block, and the two leading races in it (to which he has strong personal ties) to have an edge over the other, more fractious members, so he puts together a major, long-term project to build the Vicotries - a joint IA/Earth/Minbar project. (We're talking governments here. Earth does not equal Human, Minbar does not equal Minbari. Individual Humans and Minbari can and do collaborate on projects that are not government-to-government operations.)

While this project is moving ahead, the rapidly-expanding Rangers need ships now, not two years from now, so they do what they can with what they have. There is no necessary contradiction between the Valen being around in 2265 or so, and the Victory launching in 2266 or 67. Nor any necessary connection between the two.

Regards,

Joe

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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net

bakana · Jan 25, 2002

To answer another of your questions, this was the Valen's first job, first captain & crew after coming out of the shipyards.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

Hesperous · Jan 26, 2002

Did anyone think that the Valen had the look of an Omega Class nose? The back I cant guess at, (almost Romulan?).

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KoshN · Jan 26, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Hesperous:
Did anyone think that the Valen had the look of an Omega Class nose? The back I cant guess at, (almost Romulan?).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's been said, almost verbatim, in a few other threads.

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

Hesperous · Jan 28, 2002

Sorry, just had not bumped into it. As a note, I thought that the best of both techs would have been molded together. I expected the Valen to have the blue skin at the least, with Minbari style Gravitic units coupled with the EA style engines. I will be upgrading my PC in the next 6 months, (Hours to map 3d art on a K6-266,) and will do some of what I expected the Valen to look like. As a note, the Excalibur is my favorite design yet, simple, funtional, and packs a good punch. I like the idea that the main gun disables the ship, power like that must come with a price. The Liandra needs some work, the model is really good, but it is missing something. It may be as simple as the gun ports don't match the gunners system. They look like fixed ports, lets get some animation to the exterior, ball jointed ports, no protruding gun, just a lens. Roll the balls to targets, focus the lens, and even reflect the enemy in the lens as the camera zooms close, then pan back from the eye of the gunner, with the crosshairs on the target. Give us some data, (Threat assessment by the weapons system, distance, et.).

As a note, KoshN, is the username pronounced Caution?

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KoshN · Jan 28, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Hesperous:
Sorry, just had not bumped into it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I wasn't mad or being sarcastic, hence the smiley. I was just letting you know of the other threads.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Hesperous:
As a note, the Excalibur is my favorite design yet, simple, funtional, and packs a good punch.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And looks good, too.

Always nice to have a cool ship.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Hesperous:
I like the idea that the main gun disables the ship, power like that must come with a price.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How they used the main gun, sometimes troubled me:

Sheridan using it while moving toward the Null Field in A Call to Arms. Physics lesson for Sheridan! Stop before you fire. When going into the complete unknown (the Null Field), you want your engines and weapons at 100%, not 0%.

Gideon using it to fire on the planet in Racing the Night. He was in an enhanced gravity field, and still being pulled down, despite full resistance by the engines, and he fires the main gun??? Guess what happens to engine power when he does that? What should have happened to the Excalibur when he fired the main gun? Catapult, anyone?

Gideon firing at the Drakh mothership in Each Night I dream of Home. He missed, and the ship still exploded. Why have them miss? That ship was huge, the broad side of a barn. BTW, Excalibur missed with the main gun in A Call to Arms as well.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Hesperous:
The Liandra needs some work, the model is really good, but it is missing something.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really like the overall shape, and the surfacing they've done.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Hesperous:
It may be as simple as the gun ports don't match the gunners system.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We never did see a port firing, i.e. the flame bolts coming out of a port. There were no close-ups of this, only fast moving distant shots. In B5/Crusade, we're used to seeing close-ups of the weapons firing.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Hesperous:
They look like fixed ports, lets get some animation to the exterior, ball jointed ports, no protruding gun, just a lens.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look at the ball turrets in Liandra model

BTW, you're talking beam weapons here (w.r.t. the lens). They have no beam weapons.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Hesperous:
As a note, KoshN, is the username pronounced Caution?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're the second person who's ever mentioned that, but No. No hidden meaning there.

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

[This message has been edited by KoshN (edited January 28, 2002).]

bakana · Jan 29, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> KoshN <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kosh Naranek is Kosh's full name.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

KoshN · Jan 29, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bakana:
Kosh Naranek is Kosh's full name.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Surely, you're addressing this to Hesperous, right? ...not me?

I just used KoshN here, because I wanted to keep it the same as my ID on SciFi.com. I used KoshN there because I couldn't get Kosh Naranek. Somebody else already had it. KoshN is just an abbreviation.

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

**DONOTDELETE** · Jan 29, 2002

maybe while they are picking up the scrapes and rebuiling the Victory class ships, the IA is pumping out Valen class ships to have alittle more muscle than just the white stars for the duration of the victory class construction time. Like instead of putting all the Naval budget to big ships, President Jefferson also built alot of little gun boats, cheaper and faster. Am I making sense(it sounds good in my head..but that doesnt always mean good things)?

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[This message has been edited by Daave (edited January 29, 2002).]

bakana · Jan 30, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> the IA is pumping out Valen class ships <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think when JMS said we'd seen the Last of the Valen, he meant they weren't going to build any More.

Everybody thought it was ugly.

It got trashed before it even Knew it was in a fight.

That's the sort of "bad Karma" that makes a ship design very unpopular and, since Valen was a prototype, they decided the design was a failure and not to build any more.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

Hesperous · Jan 30, 2002

I think the Victory Class is a dead end, with prototype 1 dead, and two in service, and the station with all the documentation destroyed, we have one unique ship. A second try may be better or worse, but without the notes, and the working model...

I love the Victory, but too make it totally unique, it's like owning a 1969 Ferrari GTO. I hope that they try again, but make the Victory II weaker however more efficient.

On the Valen... You can't polish a turd... (sorry, just had to be said.)

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KoshN · Jan 30, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Hesperous:
I think the Victory Class is a dead end, with prototype 1 dead, and two in service, and the station with all the documentation destroyed, we have one unique ship. A second try may be better or worse, but without the notes, and the working model...

I love the Victory, but too make it totally unique, it's like owning a 1969 Ferrari GTO. I hope that they try again, but make the Victory II weaker however more efficient.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think the Victory class is a dead end. One has been destroyed (the Victory), and one is in service (the Excalibur).

I doubt that the design specs have been destroyed. It'd be common practice to have have the files backed up in more than one place, and that these places would not be close together. (Note to WB: Don't have all your files only in one place. Have backups in several places, some copies off-system on read-only media, and be DAMN sure your people know where the stuff is.)

Also, who knows what stuff Drake was dragging his feet on, at the behest of the Drakh? What other systems, weapons, defenses might the Excalibur have had, if Drake hadn't been a traitor? Note: I'm not looking for answers, here.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Hesperous:

On the Valen... You can't polish a turd... (sorry, just had to be said.)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And yet people persist in polishing Pontiac Azteks.

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire
http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

[This message has been edited by KoshN (edited January 30, 2002).]

FlarnHead · Jan 30, 2002

Funny, Ialways thought the central structure of the Valen looked much like the Centauri Architecture created by Agents of Gaming for thier Centauri Fleet.

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wipster · Jan 30, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And yet people persist in polishing Pontiac Azteks.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You took the words out of my post, LOL!

They're still trying to make it look better, but it's a lost cause...and that's exactly what the Valen reminded me me of...does General Motors still exist in the 23rd century?

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Wipster

"Live Long in Prosser"

Cern · Jan 30, 2002

I like azteks...just cant afford one.

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So come on rally round this brave and valiant cause with tradition, pride, and honor at its core. With swords drawn to defend stood these noble-hearted men. Faugh-an-ballagh, clear the way, me boys!!
-Dropkick Murphys: Heroes From Our Past

KoshN · Jan 30, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cern:
I like azteks...just cant afford one.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ford Escapes are better looking, but if you want real 4x4, get a Jeep (been there, done that, got the t-shirt).

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KoshN
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Vorlon Empire

http://www.scifi.com/b5rangers/

Cern · Jan 31, 2002

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by KoshN:
Ford Escapes are better looking, but if you want real 4x4, get a Jeep (been there, done that, got the t-shirt).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd rather have an Avalanche.

but to try and get back on topic...Who thinks it would be cool to have a new ship named the NEROON?

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So come on rally round this brave and valiant cause with tradition, pride, and honor at its core. With swords drawn to defend stood these noble-hearted men. Faugh-an-ballagh, clear the way, me boys!!
-Dropkick Murphys: Heroes From Our Past

Hesperous · Feb 4, 2002

I looked at the Aztek, ended up with the Montana SE, real cool options, (they come on the Aztech also,). Note: They are putting larger wheels and tires on the 2003, (rumor has it,) Aztek.

Back to the subject, KoshN, you are right about the design specs being in someones hands, (Garabaldi???,) however, the rebuilding of the station/drydock in secret, the cost of material, rehireing of people on a project the Drakh want stopped, lots of $$$$, large chance of failure. This makes it cheaper to build Azteks... sorry, Valen style ships, on Minbar. There is also a great advantage to having a atmospheric warship, especially when dealing with the Rangers. Depending on shuttles is not the best option for a hostile environment insertion, a small warship, (ideally a whitestar,) is the best. I know they want a bigger badder Warship, but the Valen??? I would have thought name would have been lended to a class of space station, seeing as that was Valens gift, like a bigger b5, (O'Neal class if I'm not mistaken).

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The Valen and Excalibar

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