To Sail Beyond the Stars

gangster · Apr 2, 2002

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by Theophilus:
One other thought. Have we yet had a discussion of all the OTHER plagues that followed the Big D? With six billion bodies lieing around, and all the survivors being kids who don't know diddly about survival sanition, I expect that the Big Death wouldn't be the only bug biting people, and the kids wouldn't be immune to them.

Oh, well, it IS science fiction, after all.<hr></blockquote>

You see the same problems with the plot I do. As they say, "The true test of someone's intelligence is how much they agree with you." <LOL>

gangster · Apr 2, 2002

To nitpick a little more, after 15 years most roads would have become all but impassible, especially in mountain areas. Very few batteries would still carry a charge. And so on......

**DONOTDELETE** · Apr 2, 2002

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by gangster:
To nitpick a little more, after 15 years most roads would have become all but impassible, especially in mountain areas. Very few batteries would still carry a charge. And so on......<hr></blockquote>

I have just like made the assumption all along that it was batteries that someone with a working generator had gotten recharged. But it is true.. even then most batteries would just be slag.

About the roads... We really haven’t seen that much of the roads and I don't agree with you there. The roads we have today gets torn up so fast just because there is such an enormous amount of traffic on them. The Romans built roads two thousand years ago that still could function as roads, if you lower your level of comfort a bit.. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

The roads we build today is not of less quality then the ones the Romans built. They might not be much better either actually. But after 15 years with nothing else then the powers of nature beating on the road network .Most of it should still be perfectly alright.

Sleep tight.
/Com

gangster · Apr 2, 2002

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by Com:
I have just like made the assumption all along that it was batteries that someone with a working generator had gotten recharged. But it is true.. even then most batteries would just be slag.

About the roads... We really haven?t seen that much of the roads and I don't agree with you there. The roads we have today gets torn up so fast just because there is such an enormous amount of traffic on them. The Romans built roads two thousand years ago that still could function as roads, if you lower your level of comfort a bit.. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

The roads we build today is not of less quality then the ones the Romans built. They might not be much better either actually. But after 15 years with nothing else then the powers of nature beating on the road network .Most of it should still be perfectly alright.

Sleep tight.
/Com<hr></blockquote>

While stretches would be good, weather would have closed a lot of mountain roads with landslides, etc while some stretches in open areas would have drifted over.

**DONOTDELETE** · Apr 2, 2002

Concerning the problem of going by car from TM to the west coast. I took a look at those maps someone had dug up and I don’t see a problem. I am a Swede. I am used to travelling distances that my friends in Europe find ridiculous. In my own old Mazda I have a 70 litres tank and on that one I can easily go 1000 km. There army truck probably has the same size or a bigger one. So one full tank to get us to Los Angeles or any other place up and down on the west coast. If the roads are good you can do it in less than 10 h. If they are even moderately good you can do it in 20 h. So all you need is a hidden petrol deposit stacked away or why not simply bring it along on the truck so you can refuel.

I don’t see any problem at all, except that it might be a waste of precious fuel. But hey.. its Marcus decision right!

I should be sleeping now.. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif
/Com

gangster · Apr 3, 2002

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by Com:
Concerning the problem of going by car from TM to the west coast. I took a look at those maps someone had dug up and I don?t see a problem. I am a Swede. I am used to travelling distances that my friends in Europe find ridiculous. In my own old Mazda I have a 70 litres tank and on that one I can easily go 1000 km. There army truck probably has the same size or a bigger one. So one full tank to get us to Los Angeles or any other place up and down on the west coast. If the roads are good you can do it in less than 10 h. If they are even moderately good you can do it in 20 h. So all you need is a hidden petrol deposit stacked away or why not simply bring it along on the truck so you can refuel.

I don?t see any problem at all, except that it might be a waste of precious fuel. But hey.. its Marcus decision right!

I should be sleeping now.. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif
/Com<hr></blockquote>

The truck only gets about 12 miles to the gallon under normal operating conditions, less under adverse conditions and we're talking 2400 miles round-trip. This means they would need to take 250 gallon fuel trailer with them (which also would decrease the miles-per-gallon.

Kraig · Apr 3, 2002

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>I have just like made the assumption all along that it was batteries that someone with a working generator had gotten recharged. But it is true.. even then most batteries would just be slag. <hr></blockquote>

Lead acid batteries maintained in proper condition have a life of about 5 years max. That is after the acid has been added and they are continuously used and charged.

Military lead acid batteries are kept in storage in a "dry charge" condition. They are ready to use and fully charged when you add sulfuric acid and their 5 year life starts at that point. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

gangster · Apr 3, 2002

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by Kraig:


Lead acid batteries maintained in proper condition have a life of about 5 years max. That is after the acid has been added and they are continuously used and charged.

Military lead acid batteries are kept in storage in a "dry charge" condition. They are ready to use and fully charged when you add sulfuric acid and their 5 year life starts at that point. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif<hr></blockquote>

Good point but storing sulfuric acid for 15 years poses problems. Actually, I was thinking about drycells as well as wetcells when I said "batteries." I can't see drycells hold there charge for 15 years although "rechargables" might still be usable if there was a power source available to charge them.

Kraig · Apr 3, 2002

When I was in the service (1976 - 1982) we were still getting 10 + year old battery acid purchased in lots manufactured during the time of the Vietnam war. They store it in 1 and 5 gallon plastic containers. The plastic containers were kept inside wax coated cardboard boxes. The dry charge lead acid batteries were even older than that. All of it was still usable.

**DONOTDELETE** · Apr 5, 2002

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by gangster:
The truck only gets about 12 miles to the gallon under normal operating conditions, less under adverse conditions and we're talking 2400 miles round-trip. This means they would need to take 250 gallon fuel trailer with them (which also would decrease the miles-per-gallon.<hr></blockquote>

Sorry, I can´t think in gallons and miles. My mind only works in the litres and metres system! /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif But I saw that you, in your elaboration on the petrol consumption, had mixed up kilometres and miles. If you look at the map you will see that it is 1100 kilometres, not miles, to San Diego from Thunder Mountain. If I remember correctly one mile is about 1,6 kilometres or something like that. So you added another 60% to the journey. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

And as I said before, my old Mazda from 1985 drinks about 0,7 litres of petrol to move 10 km. I would be surprised if a modern car would drink more. So for 1000 km that would be 70 litres. 70 litres is pretty much standard on vehicles and I bet that the army truck they use hasn’t got a smaller tank.

So lets say that the roads don’t go entirely straight to the coast, they never do, so they must travel about 1200 kilometres to get there. That is 2400 kilometres all in all. That will be about 168 litres of petrol. So you need to bring along 100 litres extra, or have a hidden depot somewhere along the road.

If the have a depot that solves the entire matter, but in my opinion that is unnecessary. All they need is a few petrol cans in the back. About 10 cans holding 10 litres each. That will be about 100 kg since petrol has slightly lesser density than water and the cans themselves will have a little weight as well. And 100 kg more or less on a 2 ton army truck won’t matter. A normal person weight about 80 kg. So it won’t do anything to the miles-per-gallon index.

So I say it’s easy! The trip one way wont take more than 16 h going at a moderate speed. They could set out at early morning and be there by nightfall. Easy picking. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

But of course all of this is nitpicking and actually pretty irrelevant for the series. To make a series believable it is good if you are able to create a world and scenarios the audience can believe in. That makes a show that much more powerful. But really, these things are only there to describe the background for the real storytelling. If we concentrate to much on the realistic issues:

“yes it could be done!”
“no it couldn’t”
“yes it could!”
“no”
“yes”

we lose focus of the truly interesting things. The things that really matter, the story and what it wants to teach us. It’s like the book of Jonah. (Hey I’m a theologian /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif ). When reading the book of Jonah, (please do, it’s very short, will take you five minutes), it is very easy to concentrate all your interest what kind of whale that could have been. Could Jonah really survive in its stomach for three days? Etc etc... But if you read the story that way you miss the entire point. The story is not about a whale. The story is about the unbelievably long patience and great mercy of God as shown to the brutal and cruel people of Nineveh.

I like to nitpick and look for logical gaps as much as the next guy. But we must be careful when we watch so it doesn’t destroy the experience. I found like 7 gaps in “the Matrix” the first time I watched it. After a while I had to turn off the logical part of my brain or I wouldn’t have enjoyed the film. After all I do love when all the parts come together in a logical unity. That is probably one of the reasons why I love B5 so much. JMS just seems to have thought about everything…

Well.
Gotta go to sleep. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif
See ya all.
/Com

gangster · Apr 5, 2002

Com,
The distance between Colorado Springs, Colorado (where Cheyenne Mountain is located) to San Francisco, California is 1334 miles. That's 2134 kilometers. That means Jeremiah's truck would use 112 gallons of gasoline (424 liters) one way. It would be double that for a round-trip. This assuming he didn't have to use four-wheel drive to clear obstructions, or to circle around to get past obstructions. Remember, in Jeremiah's world there is no one to maintain the roads or keep them clear of landslides, etc.

Lyta · Apr 5, 2002

Originally posted by Com:
But of course all of this is nitpicking and actually pretty irrelevant for the series. To make a series believable it is good if you are able to create a world and scenarios the audience can believe in. That makes a show that much more powerful. 

Well, I agree with you for the most part there but the whole traveling thing just makes me curious -how- they are doing it and how -far- they are going. They must be carrying around enough gas to get them places but boy that sure is dangerous (mostly because of what would happen if anyone figured out what they had).

I just wonder if JMS makes up places where they go (which could be explained away) or are they all real places that have been taken over like the NORAD command center. I can see that after a few years, the kids would move out of the cites (I wouldn't want to live in a place with a bunch of dead people and there is no way you could dispose of them all) and eventually congregate in smaller towns and start calling them by their own name. Maybe someone knows where "Cranston" is but I sure don't. Heh, I find that stuff interesting so sue me. /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

This is the fun part about how JMS writes ... he gives us enough to speculate on and we could spend years trying to piece everything together in order to figure out what he actually meant. /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif

Also, I read up a bit on gasoline storage and was surprized how quickly it degrades. There are preservatives and stabilizers that extend the shelf life to "years" but I couldn't find any specifics. There were even products which would restore your gasoline to it's original condition so I don't have a problem with the issue of whether or not it -could- last (in fact, it would have never crossed my mind otherwise). I am also guessing that diesel would be easier to come by and that boats, army vehicles, generators, etc. would all use diesel. Plus, doesn't diesel last longer?

Anyway, enough nitpicking from me tonight. /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif The thing that really bothers me is when people say "oh well, it's SciFi so who cares" type of statements. Sure, not everything is going to make sense when you compare it to the real world but you could at least try to figure out how it makes sense in the world it takes place in ... especially for a show that is based off of a world as we know it today. /ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif

So, now that I have probably pissed off people, I think it is time for me to go home! /ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif

**DONOTDELETE** · Apr 5, 2002

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by gangster:
Com,
The distance between Colorado Springs, Colorado (where Cheyenne Mountain is located) to San Francisco, California is 1334 miles. That's 2134 kilometers. That means Jeremiah's truck would use 112 gallons of gasoline (424 liters) one way. It would be double that for a round-trip. This assuming he didn't have to use four-wheel drive to clear obstructions, or to circle around to get past obstructions. Remember, in Jeremiah's world there is no one to maintain the roads or keep them clear of landslides, etc.<hr></blockquote>

Hmm.. You say 1334 miles with such a detail that you must have looked it up in an atlas or something. It does surprise me in a way because then the scale at the bottom of the pic of the <a target="_blank" href=http://geonames.usgs.gov/pls/gnis/MapServer?f_name=Cheyenne+Mountain&f_state=CO&f_latlong=384414N1045249W&f_ht=16&server=TIGER>map</a> is entirely, totally, wrong. The real distance is about twice that of the map. I did measure to San Diego, not to San Francisco, but I bet the difference is not that big, right?

Well. If the map is wrong and your atlas is right. Then there is not very much more to say on the matter. They must have hidden petrol depots.

But as I said in the last replay, this nitpicking is fun and all, but it is not the point of the story. The episode never said a word over the travelling part. The episode was about the map wall, the burners, the girl and her sailing bout, about getting blood on your hands, not by taking life but by giving it, etc…

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by Lyta:
The thing that really bothers me is when people say "oh well, it's SciFi so who cares" type of statements. Sure, not everything is going to make sense when you compare it to the real world but you could at least try to figure out how it makes sense in the world it takes place in ... especially for a show that is based off of a world as we know it today. <hr></blockquote>

I Agree 100%. I would like to claim that the SciFi writers often think things through very hard in advance. (Some Star Trek episodes here and there as exceptions). Because the SciFi audience is a very intelligent audience that analyse and nitpick all over the series! B5 for example is in my opinion a masterpiece in continuance planning. And I appreciate that, and I believe all true SciFi fans out there appreciate that.

But then of course, I did grow up on Jules Werne, Isaac Asimov, Arthur C Clark and Larry Niven. All hard core SciFi writers. All of them built their stories on a core of true science. And if real science didn’t work, they created a new one and camouflaged it so well that you believed in them anyway.. /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

See ya later
/Com

Theophilus · Apr 9, 2002

Sorry, I haven't figured out the quote feature:

>I would like to claim that the SciFi writers often think things
>through very hard in advance. (Some Star Trek episodes
>here and there as exceptions). Because the SciFi audience
>is a very intelligent audience that analyse and nitpick all
>over the series! B5 for example is in my opinion a
>masterpiece in continuance planning. And I appreciate that,
>and I believe all true SciFi fans out there appreciate that.

I couldn't agree more. It really bugs me when I find logical gaps in SF stories. Not that I expect to have it explained how warp drive works or how hyperspace works, but if something is put into a story, it has to be logically consistent with everything else in the story. And I agree, B5 was far better than average at doing that...and Star Trek is pretty bad. I'm a Trekker from way back, and I still watch, but I have to complain that Enterprise's continuity stinks. Two weeks ago they met the Ferengi, who they are supposed to meet for the first time in Picard's day, and last week they met their second species with a functional holograph technology, yet they never are able to duplicate that technology until Picard's day.

And it's just so refreshing to watch B5 and have the plot points resolved by plotting and people, instead of "realigning the deflector dish to emit a polaron beam." Plot and character development good. Technobabble bad.

Some SF is no more than fantasy, where the hero pulls a magic sword out of his bag to solve his problems (realigning the deflector dish, etc.) That seems to me like sloppy writing. On the other hand, there are authors who really put detail into world-building, and making all the details fit together. I recently got addicted to David Weber's "Honor Harrington" series. He's telling the story of the English/French conflict both before and after the French Revolution, only it's 2000 years in the future...kinda a space-based Horatio Hornblower. Really good stuff.

**DONOTDELETE** · Apr 10, 2002

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by Theophilus:
And it's just so refreshing to watch B5 and have the plot points resolved by plotting and people, instead of "realigning the deflector dish to emit a polaron beam." Plot and character development good. Technobabble bad.

[snipp]

On the other hand, there are authors who really put detail into world-building, and making all the details fit together. I recently got addicted to David Weber's "Honor Harrington" series. <hr></blockquote>

Yeah.. I’ve read about 7 of the Honor Harringstons books. I like them a lot even thou they are a bit soup opera like. But David Weber does truly have his weapon tech and his interstellar speed calculation down to the decimals. It is sometimes truly staggering how he throws astronomical numbers around his head in those battle sequences. Ha has a firm grasp on the physics of his universe, which in realspace is true einsteinian and in hyperspace is a very believable alternative. I actually sat down one time and punched some figures in my mini calculator and used some formulas from the time when I studied relative theory. And it worked out.

I LIKE THAT!!! /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

That is the way that true science fiction is supposed to be written.

But the master when it comes to such things is truly Larry Niven. He often use advanced physics as a central means to figure out the central plot in his story. Doesn’t matter if it’s a detective story or an adventure story. He uses physics and mathematics.

I LIKE THAT!!! /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

So when JMS kept himself to well established mathematics in his hyperspace in B5. (I actually calculated the theoretical hyperspace speed to Centauri Prime from B5 and it was truly the same speed they gave in a conversation in one episode)

I LIKE THAT!!! /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

I just hope JMS will think about this in making Jeremiah as well. As I said before. The focus must not be allowed to be there. Then we often miss the point of the story. The episode "to sail beyond the stars" was not about hidden petrol depots and miles-per-gallon calculations. It was about the wall, the burners, about sailing towars your dream and finaly to get blood on your hands, by giving life. But if you can tell this story and at the same time handle the miles-per-gallons calculations in a good way.... I LIKE IT!!! /ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

We shall see.
/Com

channe · Apr 10, 2002

As an amateur SF writer, I've been tempted to just kick aside all physics numerous times, simply because I plainly suck at math and science outside of some biology and geology. But you can't. You can't ignore it. Which is why I'm having problems with Titans - yeah, our heroes got to Ishnu - BUT HOW?!?!

Which is why I am now making it a necessary thing for me to be able to grasp the *world* of a story before writing it. That's why I'm more of a fantasist (of the Ellison school, not the Tolkien, there's a difference). But I still do write SF, but only if I understand the science that underlies the story. Otherwise, it's just gobbledygook and you won't get anyone to believe you.

If you like military SF, check out David Feintuch's Hope series. It kicks some serious arse. Nick Seafort, his protagonist, is one of the best I've seen in a while, and you only get bored with him when you start screaming JEEZUS, YOU NITWIT!!!! and then realize... well, ain't that what the author wants you to do? /ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

Theophilus · Apr 11, 2002

Nobody's mentioned it here, but there was a Thunder Mountain fuel depot in "The Bag", so that answers one major thread on this discussion.

I dunno why, but I've never gotten into Niven. I listened to that Ringworld story once while I was at work (streamed over the internet), and it was okay, but it just didn't grab me. Although, come to think of it, I've read a bunch of stuff he's done with Jerry Pournelle as his co-pilot. Don't like it as much as Weber, but still pretty good.

**DONOTDELETE** · Apr 11, 2002

<blockquote>Quote:<hr>Originally posted by Theophilus:
Nobody's mentioned it here, but there was a Thunder Mountain fuel depot in "The Bag", so that answers one major thread on this discussion.

I dunno why, but I've never gotten into Niven. [snipp]
<hr></blockquote>

Alright! I havn't seen "the bag" yet. So I didn't know. Well, I guess that answers that. THANK YOU JMS for thinking about your audiences level of intelligence (and tendency to nitpick!) /ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

Try Larry Nivens "protector" or why not "world out of time".
They are great!

/Com

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