Turhan's Mission

[KoshFan]

Turhan\'s Mission

(spoilers for practically everything B5)

While reading the Israel/Palestine thread over in the off-topic forum, I keep flashing on the Narns and the Centauri. Of course JMS set things up that way. But I've also been wondering: could anything really stop such hatred?

Emperor Turhan went to B5 to stand beside G'Kar and apologize. As we all know, he failed in about as tragic a fashion as possible, through no real fault of his own. But what if he had succeeded? Would it have done any good? The word of the Centauri Emperor is law, but a law that is fairly easily circumvented, dodged, or simply "reinterpreted" to death. Refa and his ilk would never have stood for it. And what of the Narns? Would they even have accepted the apology?

In Season 5 when the Narns and Drazi bombard Centauri Prime, it's clear that for all that G'Kar is now a revered figure, his attitudes towards the Centauri are not commonly accepted by his people. And even G'Kar, in his deep wisdom, could not find it in his heart to forgive the Centauri. He was willing to ignore the pain of the past in hopes of building a better future, but he could only forgive Londo.

In the Centauri Prime trilogy, it also becomes apparent that Centauri attitudes towards Narns haven't changed much. When G'Kar arrives on CP, only Londo's waning influence keeps him alive.

I can't imagine that Vir continued such policies as emperor, but as I described above with Turhan, he would probably be outmaneuvered. He'd keep the peace... but what about his successors? Would they feel the same way?

The long and short of it is this, I think: even with G'Kar, Londo, Vir, and others (such as not one but two Entil'zhas) working to break down the wall of hatred etween the Narns and Centauris, I'm afraid they couldn't succeed. The IA would probably be able to curb the worst excesses, but the hatred would persist....

To sum up -- was Turhan on a fool's errand? Oh, the effort had to be made. And he is a noble figure for attempting it. But was success ever in the cards?

 

[Mike G]

Re: Turhan\'s Mission

Turhan didn't expect to have the Narn and Centauri stop hating each other over night, he just wanted to apologize, so that maybe someday in the future, the could be permanent peace. If he had succeeded, the Narn and Centauri probably would not have gone to war, at least for a while. It would have been harder for the Refa and his cronies to convice everyone to go to war.


Good topic!

 

[Markas]

Re: Turhan\'s Mission *spoilers*

Turhan did succeed in his mission...in a way. He wanted to do two things, apologize to a Narn on neutral soil (not quite successful, but his message reached G'Kar) and to see a Vorlon, which he did. I think that he was successful.

However, equating his mission with a long term improvement? I don't think that even Turhan expected that. It was a gesture, and being emperor for so long, he must have known what his heirs would likely do after he was gone.

 

[Jade Jaguar]

Re: Turhan\'s Mission

"willing to ignore the pain of the past, in hope of building a better future" is the key. That can work for the present generation, if it seems that it can become a reality. Hatred is not genetic. It must be learned. If a better future IS built, the pain will remain in the past, and fade. Then, if the older generation doesn't teach the younger generation to hate, eventually the past will really be past, for Narns and Centauris, or for arabs and jews.

 

[jnk5y]

Re: Turhan\'s Mission

You referred to Israel and Palestine when you mentioned the Narn and Centauri. I still remember when Itzak Rabbin (sp?) gave a speach about peace between Israel and Palestine and hugged and kissed Yasser Arafat in the U.S. It was a beautiful speach and moment and everyone actually felt like this would work. Of course he was assasinated by his one of his own people and the peace process has never really occurred again (don't believe the news when they talk about "a road to peace" or "roadmap", it's all bull).

On that note I don't think Turhan would have been able to do anything. Would have worked maybe for a moment but once he was dead all hell would break loose again.

"I was so looking forward to OPENING a dialogue.."

 

[Enlightened_GKar]

Re: Turhan\'s Mission

To sum up -- was Turhan on a fool's errand?

"How will this end?"
"In fire." -Kosh prophesying to Emperor Turhan

If all Narn and Centauri would have given the effort to move on, as Turhan did, then there would have been peace and forgiveness. Unfortunately, Kosh knew that such effort would not come to pass.
After such a brutal history between Centauri and Narn, there was too much loss to forgive and forget, however wise forgiving would have been for both their peoples.
But then, "Blood calls out for blood."

Emperor Turhan was not on a fool's errand because he wanted peace. He was on a fool's errand because that is what his people and the Narns wanted his legacy to become.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Re: Turhan\'s Mission

Turhan didn't expect his public apologize to cure the hatred between the Narn and Centurai, but he understood that nothing would happen unless somebody took the first step (which he actually says in his message conveyed by Franklin). Had he made the apology public, it probably would have sent shockwaves back home, and either could have helped or hurt Refa's plans. It was a brave decision, because Turhan himself didn't know what the outcome to be. But he still needed to try, because unless somebody is willing to do so, you might as well give up all hope for peace (and that goes for the Middle East crisis as well).

As far as the Centauri-Narn relationship after the original series (I haven't read the books), Londo and Vir' terms of rule probably serve as a slow transition into an easing of hatred.

 

[nathan_forst]

Re: Turhan\'s Mission

To sum up -- was Turhan on a fool's errand?

"How will this end?"
"In fire." -Kosh prophesying to Emperor Turhan

If all Narn and Centauri would have given the effort to move on, as Turhan did, then there would have been peace and forgiveness. Unfortunately, Kosh knew that such effort would not come to pass.
After such a brutal history between Centauri and Narn, there was too much loss to forgive and forget, however wise forgiving would have been for both their peoples.
But then, "Blood calls out for blood."

Emperor Turhan was not on a fool's errand because he wanted peace. He was on a fool's errand because that is what his people and the Narns wanted his legacy to become.

Does everybody remember that episode which we get a glimpse of 1 000 000 years into the future? Well we all know that human beings are still around in one form or another but what of the Centauri and Narn? Do you think they died out a long time ago? ...depressing...

For that matter what do you think became of the Minbari race 1 000 000 years into the future?

 

[sleepy_shadow]

Re: Turhan\'s Mission

No information has been provided. Not providing it was smart. It gives me oppostunity for idle rambling. Be warned, it is probably boring.

<Kosh> Skip. Skip now! </Kosh>

How a young civilisation fares... depends much on luck. In a million years... things happen. Without excessive strength or flexibility, things happening may end badly. To most civilisations of "Babylon 5", things happened.

Some of them ended badly. Humanity came close several times, the Markab and Dilgar fell, the Hyach were struggling against a fall. That humans reached a form less vulnerable to sudden trouble... has profound implications.

If creatures as errant and luckless as Humans made it... those better placed would probably make it too. Some would not. Who exactly stumbled and fell... is hard to tell.

1. Drakh

The Drakh appear to be survivors. Few species would get away when their equivalent of homeworld is suddenly destroyed. Despite flawed teachers and learnings... interaction with Shadows did give them one ability. They tolerate rapid change.

The Drakh have a technical advantage over most younger races, which increases their hope of reaching the future. However, their edge is Shadow technology, often beyond their own understanding and thus hazardous. This may easily decrease their chances by equal amount. If their majority desires too much revenge or power, this may also become their downfall.

2. Minbari

The Minbari have come through two Shadow wars -- not with clean hands but alive. Becoming the centre of galactic politics (headquarters of ISA) subjects Minbar to much needed diversity and demand for change -- which some may dislike, but has occurred before during the times of Valen.

Minbari have locally developed (and partly Vorlon) technical expertise to help in their journey. However, rapid spread of vastly more advanced Shadow/Vorlon technology would erase this advantage, leaving only that of a good starting point.

3. Centauri, Humans, Narn

All three have been struck down at least once. When such occurrences are survived and learned from... resulting experience may prove valuable.

Centauri are better placed because of their history of interstellar affairs, but dragged down by their social structure. Still, who knows what happened during the rule of their hopefully last emperor -- Vir Cotto. Humans too have a burden on their social structure -- Earth is possessive of its colonies, and there exists a seperate caste called "Psi Corps" (hopefully abolished during the Telepath War).

Humans have the advantage of alliance with the Minbari. For the people most involved, this became an alliance of love, but for their civilisations, it remains an alliance of comfort -- and may break. Rangers may well be the only part which time does not wear away.

Less hope exists of Centauri and Narn overstepping their past and becoming allies. Some day, some of their members might again fuel a new war, dragging down both.

Because of this, I suspect that when Humans are crossing the threshold, Minbari and Drakh are already past it (unless the Minbari forgot to change and the Drakh blew themselves away with Shadowtech)... while Centauri and Narn approach it, possibly after setbacks.

4. Entities without race

Powerful and long-lived organisations exist... which do not identify themselves by who they are. What they deliver to future does not focus on planets, languages or a single strain of genes.

They carry goals considered worthy, principles considered efficient and ideas... because they have little else. In the end, the creature seen in Deconstruction might identify with its Human origin, but consider its direction as Anla'shok at least equally important.

Rangers will probably last. Technomages last on a condition, but even their possible passing will leave much behind. The ISA is a political union and hence less long-lived, but its principles will be remembered after its fall. Another similar union may replace it.

 

[nathan_forst]

Re: Turhan\'s Mission

Great post!

what do the rest of you think?

 

[taichidave]

Re: Turhan\'s Mission

No information has been provided.

Not entirely correct.

JMS addressed the issue of what happened to the other races.

From the Lurker's Guide:

What about the other races?
The Minbari eventually make it; the Narn and Centauri do not. They don't die out, they just don't hit a state of First One-ishness, which is darn close to immortality (barring violence).

I did enjoy the "idle rambling," though, and found it insightful.

 

[KoshFan]

Re: Turhan\'s Mission

I doubt that the Drakh made it anywhere near First One status. They revere the Shadows too much to stand on their own. Survivors they may be, but until they leave the shadow of their mentors (so to speak), they will be stunted.

An interesting tidbit I just gleaned from the S3 DVD special features is that JMS intended the Minbari to be a dying race, represented by their crystals. It makes sense when you look at other aspects of the Minbari, too, so it's probably true. Which means that without the Humans, the Minbari would probably have been knocked off before the million years elapsed. Us Humans are too volatile without the Minbari as stabilizing influences. Only together could we make it so far.

 

[jnk5y]

Re: Turhan\'s Mission

Could explain why in Deconstruction the guy is bald. Just a thought.

 

[FlipperPA]

Re: Turhan\'s Mission

Its the fashion in 1,002,262 AD! ;-)

 

[vacantlook]

Re: Turhan\'s Mission

Yeah, I have for quite some time now thought that the guy 1 million years in future in Deconstruction was actually a member of a race that formed over the years of the human and Minbari merging from two races into one.

I doubt it's what jms intended or anything, but it's what works for me, so don't flame me or anything.

 

[KoshFan]

Re: Turhan\'s Mission

The Ranger symbol on the side of the ship still had the two figures, one Human and one Minbari. If there were only one race left, I think they'd have altered the picture. Now there might be some genetic overlap, what with Minbari having human genes from Valen and Humans having Minbari genes from David (via Delenn), but I doubt it would be terribly significant.

 

[sleepy_shadow]

Re: Turhan\'s Mission

...I think they'd have altered the picture.

Or kept it -- for historical reasons.

Rangers include more species... supposedly quite numerous. However, I cannot imagine someone campaigning for a brooch with say, 41 figures.

Two different humanoid figures... represent well enough that the organisation was created by bringing together members of different civilisations, some former enemies -- to work for common benefit, for future.

Rangers have ceased being a purely Minbari organisation, dedicated to providing early warning of the predicted return of Shadows. They have become something else.

Unless something profound has happened, causing Rangers to again limit their membership to one species... need for that reminder would still exist, regardless of original species still living.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Re: Turhan\'s Mission

The Ranger symbol on the side of the ship still had the two figures, one Human and one Minbari. If there were only one race left, I think they'd have altered the picture.

I don't think so. The symbol was designed to show human and Minbari souls joining together, so actually, they'd most likely keep it if the races merged.

And since I've never seen that episode, I'll leave now.