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Ulkesh
- Thread starter vacantlook
- Start date
M
Mike G
Guest
Maybe, but I think it was the best written of all the B5 books and is my favorite.
I strongly disagree. The Techno-Mage trilogy does have one event that may or may not be in harmony with 'The Geometry of the Shadows' depending on whose word you trust more. However, the rest is in harmony with the series.
Much of the trilogy helps to understand some major events, including some of the events that would have shown up in Crusade. I found it a good read. Reading them was as much of time waster as watching the episodes.
Bottom line: to prejudge these books based on what others think is wrong. Let me say that if you read the books and still do not like them that is okay - but you should not prejudge them. My suggestion would be to check them out from the library, or see if a friend could let you borrow them.
At the very least, you will be a well-informed complainer if you do not like them.
The trilogies (including ‘To Dream in the City of Sorrows’ and ‘The Shadow Within’) meet the approval by jms within the context of the B5 universe. The stories in the books have been crafted around outline points by jms. Meaning, the events on the outline (we do not know what those events are specifically) are canon, but how the characters arrive at those points are subject to change if jms sees fit. Generally, the Del-Ray books are canon except when they clearly contradict the episodes. There were some obvious slips with all of the books (with the possible exception of ‘To Dream …’), but I do not agree that these (the slips) are so horrendous as to make any of the trilogies bad or unreadable.I do like the trilogy, for me it's second out of three.
That being said besides the Geometry of Shadows parts there are several things that don't really mesh.
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Sheridan meeting Galen on Z'ha'dum. Is there a small window of time for it, yes but it doesn't jive with how Sheridan acts in the episode. Galen is not happy go lucky in Crusade however he should be according to the book. Also Galen figuring out where the Shadows would strike is an old trick of lessening a pre-existing character to make your protagonist look better. There are others but I don't remember all of them.
That being said besides the Geometry of Shadows parts there are several things that don't really mesh.
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Sheridan meeting Galen on Z'ha'dum. Is there a small window of time for it, yes but it doesn't jive with how Sheridan acts in the episode. Galen is not happy go lucky in Crusade however he should be according to the book. Also Galen figuring out where the Shadows would strike is an old trick of lessening a pre-existing character to make your protagonist look better. There are others but I don't remember all of them.
sleepy_shadow
Regular
I would agree that perhaps, Cavelos tried a little too hard... to integrate Galen into some threads of story.
Then again, it remains a matter of taste... and if deemed a mistake, it should be deemed an easy mistake to make.
Then again, it remains a matter of taste... and if deemed a mistake, it should be deemed an easy mistake to make.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
Huh? Galen has lost the love of his life, discovered that his order's miraculous technology comes from the evil Shadows (at a very high price), seen that order's inevitable extinction in the Shadow's departure and saw hundreds of EarthForce members wiped out because of his inability to deal with the runaway shadow-tech vessel and he's supposed to be "happy-go-lucky" in Crusade? I say again, "Huh?"
I wasn't crazy about Galen meeting Sheridan, or the way he solved the puzzle for Sheridan, but apart from that I think the trilogy is the best written of the three trilogies.
(With Peter David's books holding down second place. J. Gregory Keyes tells an interesting story over a much longer period, but I found the multiple aliases and viewpoint changes of the first book affected, annoying and confusing. And in all three volumes the prose and dialogue were just a touch flatter, less vivid and less interesting than in the other two series. That said I still enjoyed the books, but not as much as the other two trilogies.)
Regards,
Joe
Maybe not happy go lucky but at peace with himself and his tech. He was very calm and took things as they came and didn't get angry with others in his order. This is not the Galen we see in Crusade.
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Remember the tech was adapted by the shadows. At the end of the books he's reached his living tech and bypassed the shadow programming.
I do think the trilogy was well written and I enjoy reading it more than the telepath trilogy.
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Remember the tech was adapted by the shadows. At the end of the books he's reached his living tech and bypassed the shadow programming.
I do think the trilogy was well written and I enjoy reading it more than the telepath trilogy.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
He was at peace with his tech (that is, it was no longer driving him towards rage and the will to chaos) at that moment after the end of the crisis.
But I don't think it is reasonable to assume that he's still going to be in the same emotional state four or five years later when the remaining Technomages have still mostly refused to bestir themselves to help the rest of sentient life despite the departure of the Shadows and that threat posed by both their minions and left-over technology. Galen has also had all that time (mostly isolated from his fellow mages and the rest of intelligent life) to get over his initial relief at the end of the Shadow pursuit and his conquest of his tech and start stewing in his own guilt over Isabel, Elric, Gideon and his crew, his parents and all the rest. So by the time of Crusade he is neither happy go lucky nor at peace. He doesn't act the same way in the series as he does at the end of the books because it is 2266 and '67, not 2261, and he's no longer the same person that he was before. I would hope that few of us are exactly the same at the start and end of any five year period, because that would indicate very little change or growth. (And might indicate the need for medical intervention.
) Regards,
Joe
sleepy_shadow
Regular
Whatever causes the tech to have destabilizing influence... might recognize that someone has bypassed its influence, and respond by counteradapting.
Besides, Galen had other possible issues to be unsettled about. Namely the decision of his order to keep hiding after direct threat was over. Having been betrayed... having lost people dear to him... seeing damage continue.
And the possible passing of technomages... inability to disentangle Shadow biases from how their tech was created, the consequent lack of new technomages, and loss of old ones (together with them, loss of knowledge and chances for solving the puzzle needed to continue).
Besides, Galen had other possible issues to be unsettled about. Namely the decision of his order to keep hiding after direct threat was over. Having been betrayed... having lost people dear to him... seeing damage continue.
And the possible passing of technomages... inability to disentangle Shadow biases from how their tech was created, the consequent lack of new technomages, and loss of old ones (together with them, loss of knowledge and chances for solving the puzzle needed to continue).
KoshN
Super Moderator
The Technomage trilogy ends in 2261. We first see Galen in December 2266 (The Centauri trilogy, A Call to Arms, and Crusade). It's possible that the Drakh use of Shadowtech, culminating with the release of the plague on Earth, and the EA use of shadowtech may be what's pissing him off.
KoshN
Super Moderator
Totally agree. My favourite of the books so far, but I haven't read the Technomage trilogy yet. I disliked Galen so much, that I keep putting it off
You disliked Galen?!?!?!
How is that possible? Out of the gate, he was my favorite character in Crusade. Besides, he keeps saving Gideon. Were it not for Galen, you wouldn’t have Gideon. nudge, nudge.
Maybe I'll skip it
No, don’t skip it. Trust me. It’s worth reading and keeping.
BTW, Nathan in #236099 and JoeD in #236178 above, make some very good points. There are a few places in the Technomage trilogy that don’t quite fit B5 and Crusade, but I completely agree with Nathan when he says “but I do not agree that these (the slips) are so horrendous as to make any of the trilogies bad or unreadable.”Of the three trilogies, Technomage is my favorite, followed closely by Centauri, and then Psi Corps. Like JoeD, I found “the multiple aliases and viewpoint changes of the first book affected, annoying and confusing.” Sometimes, Keyes cut attributions to the point where you didn’t know who was saying what to whom. There were a few times when the characters could have swapped words and would have been just as believable.
None of the books are 100% without problems. However, I still regard #7, #9, and all three of the trilogies as the core set of B5 books. Note:” I haven’t read “In the Beginning” or “Thirdspace” yet. I hear “In the Beginning” is good, and adds worthwhile stuff to what we saw in the TV movie.
You disliked Galen?!?!?!
OK, so he has some good points
I should probably say that I found Peter Woodward's portrayal of Galen intensely irritating. I found his affected, faux-Shakesperean delivery incredibly annoying.No, don’t skip it. Trust me. It’s worth reading and keeping.
Of the three trilogies, Technomage is my favorite, followed closely by Centauri, and then Psi Corps.
OK, you convinced me
I'm just coming to the end of the Centuari trilogy and I've mostly enjoyed it. S
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I've found the change in Vir a little difficult to swallow, particularly his behaviour toward Mariel, which was incredibly cruel.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
It does, but it also presents problems.
It includes a couple of scenes that were in the script at some point, but cut before shooting (like Sheridan and Sinclair crossing paths briefly as each is "changing planes" at an EarthForce base), and some invented by Peter David to flesh the piece out. But it is clear that when JMS sat down to write the trilogies he decided that he needed an additional female character to play a major role, and selected Senna from the TV movie In the Beginning. This tied events even more closely to the series, and let him use a character already known to viewers, and who was already "involved" to some degree in the events of Londo's final day alive. The lovely thing about the film version of ItB is that while we may assume that Senna is a relatively lowly servant when we first watch it, there are just enough hints that she may be more than that to Londo to make it plausible that this is the Senna of the trilogy - and nothing on-screen that flatly contradicts the idea. (Although I wasn't thrilled with the actress and suspect that they would have been pickier about casting her if Senna had been planned to have a major role.)
But when Peter David sat down to adapt JMS's ItB screenplay, he had to provide more background on the character, interior monologues, descriptions and depictions of moments not seen in the film. When he did so with Senna he treated her as the servant she seemed to be in the script, so her part of the story in the novelization doesn't begin to mesh with the character we later meet in the trilogy - even though the same writer is describing the "same" character.
Regards,
Joe
KoshN
Super Moderator
You disliked Galen?!?!?!
OK, so he has some good points
Aah, I thought it might be something like that, a UK kind of thing. Over here in the US, it plays differently. A lot of people, including myself, like an English accent and Peter Woodward's diction. I couldn't imagine anybody else playing Galen. To me, Peter owns that role.
No, don’t skip it. Trust me. It’s worth reading and keeping.
Of the three trilogies, Technomage is my favorite, followed closely by Centauri, and then Psi Corps.
OK, you convinced me
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I've found the change in Vir a little difficult to swallow, particularly his behaviour toward Mariel, which was incredibly cruel.
IIRC, Vir had a lot of trouble doing that (using the mage's fourteen words). He didn't want to do it, and agonized over it quite a bit. However, it was something he thought he had to do to get the Drakh off of Centauri Prime. What page of "Legions of Fire - Book III - Out of the Darkness" are you on? (Bad English ending with a preposition, I know.
)The whole delivery is just so fake
IIRC, Vir had a lot of trouble doing that (using the mage's fourteen words). He didn't want to do it, and agonized over it quite a bit. However, it was something he thought he had to do to get the Drakh off of Centauri Prime. What page of "Legions of Fire - Book III - Out of the Darkness" are you on? (Bad English ending with a preposition, I know.
Right toward the end
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Mariel and Durla are dead, the Tower has fallen, half of the city is blown up, but Londo has refused to have Vir killed. Delenn and Sheridan are still in the dungeons.
Jade Jaguar
Regular
I don't find Peter's delivery fake at all. He IS smug and arrogant, but that IS part of the character. His acting seemed to draw on Michael Ansara's, even though their accents are somewhat different. That said to me 'this is what techno mages are like.'
KoshN
Super Moderator
The whole delivery is just so fake
As I just said on rastb5m, Being from the US, I thought it was one of his strong points. Right out of the gate, Galen was my favorite Crusade character, partly for his accent and clear enunciation, the antithesis of a "mushmouth[1]." It's a case of UK ears vs. US ears, I guess.
IIRC, Vir had a lot of trouble doing that (using the mage's fourteen words). He didn't want to do it, and agonized over it quite a bit. However, it was something he thought he had to do to get the Drakh off of Centauri Prime. What page of "Legions of Fire - Book III - Out of the Darkness" are you on? (Bad English ending with a preposition, I know.
Right toward the end
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Mariel and Durla are dead, the Tower has fallen, half of the city is blown up, but Londo has refused to have Vir killed. Delenn and Sheridan are still in the dungeons.
I guess you don't have your book with you? [Mock Outrage] Shame! Shame on you! <wags his finger at Demon> [/Mock Outrage]
Otherwise, you'd just take the book out and see where your bookmark was, and tell me the page number. I was just trying to avoid telling you any spoilers from pages you haven't read yet. I take the book I'm currently reading, with me, virtually everywhere. That way, if I'm ever stuck waiting for something or someone, I can get a few pages read. If I'm close to the end of the book, I bring the current book, and the next one with me. (I absolutely CANNOT TOLERATE being somewhere without anything to do. Like Sheridan, my head would explode. If I'm awake, I'm doing something.
[1] mushmouth- someone who does not speak clearly, who may sound like they're speaking while eating/drinking, even though they aren't eating/drinking. I hate that.
