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Valen in Stasis? (spoilers)

Well you are going off of the theory that everyone's soul is reincarnated so to speak -- my theory is that everyone's soul is unique and therefore not reincarnated.....ok ok I know this is not how the Mimbari saw it, but this is how I see it... the Triluminaries worked not because of Valen's soul but because of his DNA which was Sinclair's DNA and ... oh we need someone smarter then me to explain it!! Something about humans have junk DNA and the triluminaries responded to that but because it originated with Sinclair anyone (like Delenn and Sinclair) having specific DNA to match Sinclair/Valen the triluminary would react more to them. That is why I said Valen's sole purpose after the war would have been to procreate to make sure that Delenn was born.....Someone help me out here!!!
 
I'll buy that, that his purpose was to make sure
1.) The Shadows didn't win the first time around 1000 years previously.
2.) Delenn was born. This is along the lines of Terminator, that Sarah Connor and Kyle existed only to make sure John Connor was born so that he could fight against the Machines.
This discussion is FASCINATING! I thank each of you for participating and also for discussing other subjects, it's great fun! You've each got some great ideas I hadn't thought of previously.
In terms of who made the triluminaries, I would say the Great Machine did, but who knows.
And I think the difficulty of discussing time travel and the subject of existing at two different times becomes tough because we're used to thinking of time in a literal sense.
In terms of souls...well, I think that Sinclair didn't exist twice at the same time, but maybe that would have been possible after all. I do think that his form of Valen ended before his Sinclair form was born, but it's also fun to think that this being had "always been here." Just looped over and over like a Phoenix born from his ashes again and again. Making him essentially immortal in that rough sense.
In terms of physics and universal laws, again, time may not be linear, and is essentially a 4th dimension, and I think our minds have trouble comprehending how it works. And that's just ONE more dimension! Imagine others!
Anyway, this brain teaser of a subject has, as I said, been great in terms of hearing all your responses. I respect and enjoy them all. We can continue on the thread and I'll still enjoy it.
Either way, thanks folks!
Jendia
 
These discussions tie everyone's brains in knots, but this is how I envision the whole triluminary setup. Take a yardstick and lay it flat (or a meterstick, for all you poor rational Europeans).This represents time. Then get a long piece of string, longer than your measuring device. This represents the lifespan of the triluminaries.

Put one end at a certain point close to the end. This is the making of the triluminaries, which for lack of information we'll call 2260. Run the string forward a bit, then cut it. This is the time jump. Then take the rest of the string back to the other end of the yard/meter stick. This other end is 1260, Valen's time. Run the string forward until it runs off the first end -- the 2260 end -- of your measuring utensil. The overlap is when the triluminaries existed in two places at once: Epsilon 3 and Minbar.

This works even better with Sinclair's lifespan, as to the best of our knowledge there's no overlap.

There, have I confused everything still more? Good!
 
I just perused this thread, and I gotta say this:

Sinclair was NOT Valen reincarnated, Sinclair WAS Valen.

The Minbari were just confused.

As to an earlier remark about Delenn's lifespan, I believe she died at about age 140, not too long after that interview on the 100th anniversary of the IA seen on "Deconstruction..". As JMS said, Delenn's last journey, oddly enough, concerned Valen (though no one would believe her).

So there is a canon story out there. It's just in JMS's head.
 
Hey there, B5_Obsessed!! I haven't seen you since I used to post on the SciFi bulletin board, ages ago.
I sure wish JMS would write down the canon story. Then maybe we could all get a definitive answer.
But yeah, Valen & Sinclair are one and the same, it's just the time factor that spirals the mind out of control.
Thanks, too, for the mention of "Deconstruction..." because that's the episode I was thinking of, when I was considering Delenn's age, and I could not remember which ep it was!
Come on, JMS! More Valen! More Delenn!

:)
 
JMS has indicated that the triluminaries were built in the Great Machine on Epsilon 3.

As to who built the Great Machine -- that's anyone's guess. The Vorlons were confident that the Shadows wouldn't attack the Great Machine; perhaps that's because the Great Machine was actually a Vorlon installation and therefore immune from Shadow attack. (On the other hand, it was probably just because the Great Machine had that huge weapon.)
 
Well, Hi Jendia. Gave up on the SciFi board about when this site went up. Just couldn't tolerate that server. Aside from here, I'm still a member on Code7R (albeit under the name of Zathr_as) and I lurk about mostly in both places. Everything's pretty much been said years ago. Still, I can't let go. I miss the old days. :(

Regarding, the Great Machine. Yes, it's got one very nasty particle weapon quite similar to the Shadows, but with the full power generated by the Great Machine behind it, one can assume it could be far more destructive. Since the Machine had sat idle for centuries, they assumed the Shadows would steer clear of it, rather than provoke it.

I believe jms has stated that it was not of Vorlon origin, but declined to give it's origins since it was intended to remain a mystery.
 
Even though the subject seems to be heading off on a tangent into Epsilon 3, you still have to go back and remember that Epsilon 3 would not have been an effective enough weapon against the Shadows if Sinclair had not returned to the past with B4 to reduce the numbers of Shadows flying about in our time. And they didn't seem perturbed when they showed up at the end of season 3!

I think Sinclair is still out there... among the stars.

Incidentally, how bigotted were the Minbari 100 years ago? They wouldn't accept B4 or an alliance with Valen unless he were or appeared to be Minbari? They drove away Valen's sprogs because they were presumably the children of Valen and...

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

Catherine Sakai, who rematerializes out of sector 14 sometime after the Shadow War. Incidentally, if her hybrid fighter ship that was a forerunner of the White Star showed up in Valen's time, the Minbari could have studied the tech behind it.
 
Maybe the Shadows figured if they didn't overtly threaten the Great Machine, it would leave them alone (which it did).

I thought that was a funny line too: When you're about to be destroyed by ancient evil and someone shows up offering you a giant space station free of charge - TAKE IT!
 
Hey all, first post here. :)
Sinclair has existed in two places at the same time, in the episode "Babylon Squared". Since Valen and Sinclair are the same person, there's no reason why Valen could not exist (perhaps put into stasis by the Vorlons) at the same time as Sinclair.
The appearance to Delenn in the temple was an important enough event to warrant Valen's intervention; without it, Delenn may not have chosen to ascend to the highest ranks of the religious caste. It's akin to the Roman Catholic's "Holy Order" sacrament that inspires the person to become a priest.
Another possibility for Sinclair is that he was approached by a First One and taken beyond the rim (given that he was in a similar position to Sheridan).
 
So, I mentioned this on my "Confessions and Lamentations" reply. We were discussing Delenn having a vision of Valen.
Some folks have theorized that he could have been there via more instances of time travel.
Has anyone else thought of this?
And could the Vorlons have kept Valen in stasis, since his body was never found?
I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I've been away awhile and I'd love to hear your feedback!

Jendia ;)
Click to expand...

I essentially think that Delenn's vision was of a transformed Valen. After his Shadow War, and at the end of the path set for him, I think he was translated into First One status. He couldn't leave and go beyond the rim, because the First Ones were still here. I think he appeared now and then (within certain limitation dictated by the vorlons), to give Minbari guidance in visions etc.

Delenn seems to recognise a basic resemblance between Sinclair and Valen, because of what she said to him in Soul Hunter.

SPOILER













When Valen and Sakai meet up again after the Valen era shadow war. I reckon they must have married and had children. It explains why the Minbari persecuted the descendants of Valen. They would have seen his relationship as blasphemous, because if they won't acceopt a station from an alien you can imagine how they might react to one of their kind becoming romantically involved with one.

Things may have relaxed more by the time of Sheridan and Delenn.

It would also explain the more human appearance of Delenn. If she already had human DNA passed on to her through ancient ancestors (one human, one half human), it's understandable why that DNA might play a more active role during transformation.
 
I just watched that ep last night where Delenn talks about Valen being part human because he was Jeffrey Sinclair after she comes out of the Dreaming. :LOL:
 
Galahad wrote:
After his Shadow War, and at the end of the path set for him, I think he was translated into First One status. He couldn't leave and go beyond the rim, because the First Ones were still here.
Click to expand...

Well, what about all the other First Ones who'd already departed? The Vorlons, the Shadows, and the five or six Lorien rounded up were the very last, not the totality. Plenty of other First Ones had left and gone on.
 
I just took it for granted that Valen was more closely tied with the vorlons. I still think he was wandering round in spectral form... that may explain the Delenn incident.
 
Personally, I kind of hope not. The poor guy had enough to do in his lifetime. Civilization should be able to let him go. :)

Being reduced to a "spectral form" and wandering around so you can give some vague advice every century or so sounds like a form of hell to me. :rolleyes:
 
Everyone is skipping the simplest possibility.
Valen died. The government and religious powers lied to create a legend.
Anyone want to dispute the fact that people in power lie for propoganda?

Or maybe he was wisked away like Sheridan was.
 
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