various from jms - Monday, June 14, 2004 8:26 AM

[rangerPHIL]

Lets face it - Who knows?

I am sure whatever it is will be FAB!

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

How valen organised the shadows would be pretty interesting

He organized the Shadows, too? You're right - that would be an interesting story.

There's never going to be a Valen mini-series, a last Shadow War mini-series or a mini-series or anything else featuring any of the following: The origin of the Vorlon-Shadow conflict, the first erruption of the Thirdspace aliens, what lies beyond the Rim. The conventional wisdom is that you need at least one Human (or Human-looking) character for the audience to identify with in an SF project. Even in animated projects with all-animal casts the animals act exactly like humans. If you want your aliens free to look and act realistically alien, then you need a human in the mix - and none of those proposed stories allow for that if they are the main or sole focus. (You could kinda get away with a Valen story if you told it in flashback from Sheridan's time and had Humans and clips of Sinclair in the framing story - but that's about the only way.)

I didn't say it was physically impossible for an FX company based far from a studio to work on a film, I said having people involved in the FX on-site was a big help - which is what happened in the case of all the "exceptions" cited above. It remains the case that it is cheaper and easier to work with an FX house located nearby because then nobody has to pay travel and lodging costs for the FX people. JMS specifically mentioned these issues as factors in his choosing a Canadian FX house for the Rangers pilot rather than trying to work long distance with LA-based companies. (And Jackson's LotR is too much of an exception to prove much of anything. So much of the film was shot on various locations and on sets built adjacent to them that he had to fly people in and lodge them regardless. And even then he worked with WETA which was based in New Zealand, as was the production. He wasn't flying folks in from London.)

Given Warner Bros. extensive studio facilities, backlot, nearby locations and the abudance of FX, makeup and costume houses in and around Hollywood I still think that from a budget perspective that is the most likely site for the main work to be done. Whatever the studio saved in crew salaries and other expenses by shooting outside the U.S. would likely be offset by the expense of transporting the cast, senior crew etc. to the new locale and the inevitable delays involved in working at the far end of a long "supply line". (Besides, Bruce is married to the President of S.A.G., who has made the issue of "runaway productions" - meaning productions that shoot outside the U.S. to avoid expensive union labor, not those with runaway budgets caused by expensive union labor - a major issue in her election platform and negotiations with the studios. Why stir that pot?

Also JMS's "London" comments seem to point to a trip of reasonably short duration in the reasonably near future. So I seriously doubt they have much to TMoS or at least with any carved-in-stone major production decisons. (Sure, maybe the score will eventually be recorded there - in 18 months or two years when the picture is finished, cut and on the scoring stage. I doubt that the arrangements would require JMS to be in London come August or September, though.) Maybe he'll be based there for some location scouts or to do some other prelim work, and also do some non-B5 stuff while he's there. Don't forget that whoever is hired to direct the film is also going to want input on most major decision affecting the film, and that person may not even be signed yet.

Things tend not to move terribly fast in the world of feature film. This isn't some TV movie where the script is finished one week, shooting starts the next and the finished pic airs two months after that.

Regards,

Joe

 

[A_M_Swallow]

JMS said he was going to be an EP of someone else's project and that currently things fit time wise.

A full series could go on for years, which would mess up his work on TMoS. It therefore has to be shorter (or starting in an unbelievable 3 years time). So the EP has to be for a film or mini-series or end of a series.

Unless an executive producer has dropped dead, had a stroke or been sent to prison it is not the end of a series.

Do any of the films and mini-series in development currently only have a single EP?

 

[rangerPHIL]

ooops


I have Shadows on the Brain at the Moment.

 

[rangerPHIL]

sing along....

''Me and my shadow......''

 

[Sindatur]

JMS said he was going to be an EP of someone else's project and that currently things fit time wise.

A full series could go on for years, which would mess up his work on TMoS. It therefore has to be shorter (or starting in an unbelievable 3 years time). So the EP has to be for a film or mini-series or end of a series.

Unless an executive producer has dropped dead, had a stroke or been sent to prison it is not the end of a series.

Do any of the films and mini-series in development currently only have a single EP?

Well, he does say EP on a Network Series. So Film is definitely not what he's talking about, and Mini-Series probably would've been specified. Perhaps "Limited Series" though. Or he may merely be the guiding force, with a good under-team, and it may not require a whole of his time.

 

[colonyearth]

How valen organised the shadows would be pretty interesting

He organized the Shadows, too? You're right - that would be an interesting story.

There's never going to be a Valen mini-series, a last Shadow War mini-series or a mini-series or anything else featuring any of the following: The origin of the Vorlon-Shadow conflict, the first erruption of the Thirdspace aliens, what lies beyond the Rim. The conventional wisdom is that you need at least one Human (or Human-looking) character for the audience to identify with in an SF project. Even in animated projects with all-animal casts the animals act exactly like humans. If you want your aliens free to look and act realistically alien, then you need a human in the mix - and none of those proposed stories allow for that if they are the main or sole focus. (You could kinda get away with a Valen story if you told it in flashback from Sheridan's time and had Humans and clips of Sinclair in the framing story - but that's about the only way.)

I didn't say it was physically impossible for an FX company based far from a studio to work on a film, I said having people involved in the FX on-site was a big help - which is what happened in the case of all the "exceptions" cited above. It remains the case that it is cheaper and easier to work with an FX house located nearby because then nobody has to pay travel and lodging costs for the FX people. JMS specifically mentioned these issues as factors in his choosing a Canadian FX house for the Rangers pilot rather than trying to work long distance with LA-based companies. (And Jackson's LotR is too much of an exception to prove much of anything. So much of the film was shot on various locations and on sets built adjacent to them that he had to fly people in and lodge them regardless. And even then he worked with WETA which was based in New Zealand, as was the production. He wasn't flying folks in from London.)

Given Warner Bros. extensive studio facilities, backlot, nearby locations and the abudance of FX, makeup and costume houses in and around Hollywood I still think that from a budget perspective that is the most likely site for the main work to be done. Whatever the studio saved in crew salaries and other expenses by shooting outside the U.S. would likely be offset by the expense of transporting the cast, senior crew etc. to the new locale and the inevitable delays involved in working at the far end of a long "supply line". (Besides, Bruce is married to the President of S.A.G., who has made the issue of "runaway productions" - meaning productions that shoot outside the U.S. to avoid expensive union labor, not those with runaway budgets caused by expensive union labor - a major issue in her election platform and negotiations with the studios. Why stir that pot?

Also JMS's "London" comments seem to point to a trip of reasonably short duration in the reasonably near future. So I seriously doubt they have much to TMoS or at least with any carved-in-stone major production decisons. (Sure, maybe the score will eventually be recorded there - in 18 months or two years when the picture is finished, cut and on the scoring stage. I doubt that the arrangements would require JMS to be in London come August or September, though.) Maybe he'll be based there for some location scouts or to do some other prelim work, and also do some non-B5 stuff while he's there. Don't forget that whoever is hired to direct the film is also going to want input on most major decision affecting the film, and that person may not even be signed yet.

Things tend not to move terribly fast in the world of feature film. This isn't some TV movie where the script is finished one week, shooting starts the next and the finished pic airs two months after that.

Regards,

Joe

I seriously think Joe disagrees with me or picks at nits a lot of times merely to be contrary and annoying.

Here I state things that Joe and I completely agree on, except some things he got picky about time and such on, which I chose not to be picky about, and he haaaas to be contrary!

Don't make me revoke your bitch license, Joe...I've heard it's a painful thing.

Film and TV often use FX houses not near where they're shooting. Also, don't forget this isn't a TV movie as you said, this is a feature and will operate like one. If SG-1 ships out FX for many episodes to London, then anyone can. In this day and age, moving FX back and forth from the production to the edit room to the FX house is a lot easier.

As for where the film will shoot, while I know Melissa lobbied about not shipping out films elsewhere, her presidency of SAG will have not one iota of bearing on WB or where they decide to shoot this film. They will shoot it where they think it will work best and be cheapest....make no mistakes.

Her SAG views haven't affected JMS on Rangers and didn't affect Bruce shooting in Canada on that ghastly snakehead flick.

Just because she's Bruce's wife don't mean she has any say over a major studio project...ever...that is not how the biz works. She can ask WB to shoot it here, and they can try to make worth WB while, but in the end WB will say and the script will say and any number of factors will say where TMoS is shot....period.

And my point to JMS in London was that there are any number of reasons as to why he might go there, one of which could eventually be the score. But until he clarifies this, we simply have no clue.

My thoughts on a mini-series were all complete supposition on my part. After all there always are possibilities.

I personally think that the other series he will be EPing is probably not an SF series, though I could well be wrong. And yes, it is possible that JMS will be more of leader and guide on this series and that it will not require the kind of time from him that B5, CRUSADE, or JEREMIAH did. The job of EP is different from show to show and film to film...it really just depends on what he and the creators want and decide and what his contract states.

That is all for now.

And Joe, stop being so damn ornery!

CE

 

[Recoil]

There's never going to be a Valen mini-series, a last Shadow War mini-series or a mini-series

Another reason I think anything Valen related or Sinclair related is HIGHLY unlikely...is that Michael O'Hare seems to have absolutely ZERO interest in anything B5 after his departure from the show in WWE II. Granted, they could always snag someone to fill the role if they really wanted, but I just dont see them doing something surrounding that character...when that characters story is already told. The only exception being the 1000 years prior Shadow War, and if they tell THAT, then no one else could be in it, which I really dont see as a possibility. So I would leave anything Sinclair/Valen related out of any future B5 projects frankly --- with the exception of a novel of course.

 

[Sindatur]

There's never going to be a Valen mini-series, a last Shadow War mini-series or a mini-series

Another reason I think anything Valen related or Sinclair related is HIGHLY unlikely...is that Michael O'Hare seems to have absolutely ZERO interest in anything B5 after his departure from the show in WWE II. Granted, they could always snag someone to fill the role if they really wanted, but I just dont see them doing something surrounding that character...when that characters story is already told. The only exception being the 1000 years prior Shadow War, and if they tell THAT, then no one else could be in it, which I really dont see as a possibility. So I would leave anything Sinclair/Valen related out of any future B5 projects frankly --- with the exception of a novel of course.

Besides which, some things will always be a mystery, because JMS has said, to explain them, would take away from the mystery that is currently there. I believe he said he would never show us the Vorlon home world, because the mystery is far more impressive than anything he could show us, and it would remove some of the mysteriousness of the Vorlons. Valen's war will probably be one of those things, if for no other reason than as stated in the previous sentences.

 

[Recoil]

Oh, and CE, I think Joe contradicts a lot of yours, and a few others comments, because often times, when ANYTHING comes from JMS, people like yourself and a few others pick it to pieces and find the most obscure shit references I have ever seen in it. You guys invite yourselves to be wrong, and often, and typically it is because you all seem to think that everything JMS says is Vorlon like and there is some super deep and hidden meaning, and you often overlook some simple logical points that destroy your entire theories. Then of course, you have to defend them to the death when people point out the obvious flaws. Its entertaining for people like me to read that sort of stuff though. I just laugh.

 

[grumbler]

On the TV series he will EP: I seem to recall that he and Joss Whedon came very close to creating a TV series together some years ago (I am thinking 2001) but it stalled because JW was involved in some studio politics. Could it be that they have gotten that project off the ground (i.e. an idea by JW, produced by JW with JMS as EP)? Pure speculation, but such a project could involve, say, filming in Britain. I seem to recall something about Whedon maybe re-introducing the "Dark Shadows" TV series. Could this be filmed in England, and JMS be going there to do some preliminary scouting-out?

In regards to "the other thing that wasn't," I am thinking possibly a revival of the computer game "Into the Fire." That was, IIRC, one of the things TMoS wasn't, and is certainly one of the projects that could easily be revived, as it was very nearly done and would make an excellent movie tie-in.

 

[Sindatur]

OOOh, now that you mention Joss Whedon, what about Giles' (From Buffy) series "Ripper", that keeps stalling?

 

[KoshFan]

I'm rather beginning to think that the series of novels might be Valen's story. Far more easily done on paper than on film.

 

[colonyearth]

Oh, and CE, I think Joe contradicts a lot of yours, and a few others comments, because often times, when ANYTHING comes from JMS, people like yourself and a few others pick it to pieces and find the most obscure shit references I have ever seen in it. You guys invite yourselves to be wrong, and often, and typically it is because you all seem to think that everything JMS says is Vorlon like and there is some super deep and hidden meaning, and you often overlook some simple logical points that destroy your entire theories. Then of course, you have to defend them to the death when people point out the obvious flaws. Its entertaining for people like me to read that sort of stuff though. I just laugh.

Oh, really? This just goes to prove that people don't actually read what people say since this was from me two posts ago:

First of all, as JDM has pointed out many times, while JMS likes to play the Vorlon, sometimes the simplest explanation of or conclusion drawn from his statements are the most likely.

I know that wild flights of fancy are fun (especially if done tongue-in-cheek), but let's at least try to keep speculation within reason here. (OMG I just sounded exactly like JDM sounded to me when I first came onboard! Someone...quick...shoot me! )

But seriously, I know it's fun to try to interpret the many layers of JMS' posts, but realistically, a lot of the time JMS hides his meaning in plain site and it really doesn't take a lot to deduce what he's trying to tell us (just use common sense).

Did you read what I said?!

And everything I've ever talked about has been no more or less explorative and speculative than anyone else...including you and JDM. I will say again, anything I'm saying is mental exercise and exploration, with some fun speculation thrown in. I am myself a storyteller and love to examine the many possibilities.

Beyond that, I've never said that anything I say is absolute or fact and have never represented it at such. The fact of the matter is I don't know...none of us do...we're not there and we're not JMS.

I thought we were all speculating and playing with the ideas....sorry if I misunderstood what this was all about. And I was joking with Joe in my last post in case the light sarcasm was lost on ya.

In case you didn't notice, I was actually agreeing with 95% of what Joe has been saying. He and I have actually agreed a lot lately and only disagree in fun now.

And as for the computer game idea...that's a good guess, I had also forgotten about that...a very good possibility.

And just to make myself perfectly clear on this...I do not think the Valen backstory/previous Shadow War story will be told in film or series form...I did use it as a wild example but I never thought it was really a viable idea.

However, I do think it would make a fabulous series of novels.


CE

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

I seriously think Joe disagrees with me or picks at nits a lot of times merely to be contrary and annoying

Several people disagreed with my comments about the FX house. Why do you assume my reply was directed only to you?

The Melissa thing was mostly for fun, and less about the degree of influence she might have over Warner Bros. than the degree of influence she might have over Bruce - who will have more clout in his negotiations for this film than he would in any other feature film deal, because of his importance to the fans and the franchise. (Rather like Shatner and Nimoy vis a vis the early Trek films.) See how the dominoes fall?

And yes, I am sometimes a bit provoked by some of the more over-the-top speculation and the tendency of people to not carefully read posts or keep track of a conversation so that they're still guessing titles long after the title has been revealed or asking if it will be a mini-series two months after it became clear it will be a film. (Particularly when these things are discussed further up in the same thread, and aren't buried in some obscure old post somewhere.)

Also assuming that all of JMS's posts are connected and that none of them simply "expire" when overtaken by events. His little joke about Harry and Jack and the wrong side of the river is no doubt long since moot. I don't think his latest comments about Australia and England have the faintest connection to them - and I don't think most of you would either if some of you weren't so close to the problem that fumes from your monitors are reducing the blood-flow to your brains. (A comment not directed at CE, who has been fairly level-headed about this sort of thing and has himself swung Occam's razor when the speculative underbrush has gotten a bit thick.)

Regards,

Joe

 

[grumbler]

Recoil, I agree absolutely. In fact, I will go further and say that the time and effort spent on such a show would be totally wasted in my opinion. It would ruin the mystery for the fans and be ignored by the public. At best it would be a lot of shoot-em-ups that we would tire of quickly, at worst a remake of "A Lion in Winter" featuring not three sons but three castes, and ALiW has already been done to perfection.

No, the interesting stories, IMO, (barring POSSIBLY the Dilgar War) lie in the future from B5, not the past - because the great story of its past has already been told on film.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

I know that wild flights of fancy are fun (especially if done tongue-in-cheek), but let's at least try to keep speculation within reason here. (OMG I just sounded exactly like JDM sounded to me when I first came onboard! Someone...quick...shoot me! )

What? AGAIN? Do you have any idea what bullets cost nowadays? Even spread across the membership of two bulletin boards that's too muich. Forget it. We'll just call the NBS.

Wham! Wham! Wham! Wham! Wham! WHAM!

Satisified?



Joe

 

[Jan]

At the risk of being accused of nit-picking....

Her SAG views haven't affected JMS on Rangers and didn't affect Bruce shooting in Canada on that ghastly snakehead flick.

Word I had back when Rangers was in the works was that JMS wasn't given a choice of where it was to be filmed. My contact (a crew member) said that he'd been informally contacted about his interest in participating but then JMS was told filming had to be done in Vancouver.

Jan

 

[tlsmith1963]

I'm rather beginning to think that the series of novels might be Valen's story. Far more easily done on paper than on film.

I agree. I also agree with the people who feel that the First Shadow War will probably never be filmed. No human characters. It would be great in book form though, & I think it could be a possibility.

Tammy

 

[Chris Springob]

Re: various from jms - Monday, June 14, 2004 8:26

I seem to recall that he and Joss Whedon came very close to creating a TV series together some years ago (I am thinking 2001) but it stalled because JW was involved in some studio politics.

Joss Whedon? Are you sure you're not thinking of Chris Carter:

http://worldsofjms.com/projects.htm#twof