Vorlons or Shadows?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

One of the ages old question in the Babylon universe is which of these ageless, unconquerable races was more powerful.

The Vorlons would be a good choice because in the episode "Interludes and Examinations", we see one Destroyer group take out Shadow force with not too much of a struggle. They have four and five mile long planet-killers. They are extremely powerful telepaths who live pretty damn near forever.

There are arguments against the Vorlons. In the episode "Into the Fire", Sheridan takes out their listening post without too much of a hassle. The Shadows were able to kill Kosh (at least mostly). They need an actual crew complement on their ships. And since dying doesn't happen very often, I wonder how many total Vorlons there were.

The Shadows would be a good choice. If there ships want you destroyed, you are gone. There ships are ran by a singularly concious sentient being, therefore there is no risk of death to a Shadow individual. It is suggested that they are older than the Vorlons, so they could be more technologically advanced. Furthermore, it seems as though their armada of ships exceeds that of the Vorlons. They have death-cloud technology.

The arguments against the Shadows consist of the fact that Londo's guards killed Morden's two associates pretty handily in "The Long Night." Sheridan was able to assault and devastate a Shadow city on their homeworld. No one ever came near the Vorlon Homeworld. It also didn't seem like the powerful pink laser did much to the Vorlon Cruiser in the earlier mentioned battle before Kosh's death.

My personal opinion would probably be the Shadows because a War between these two would be a War of Attrition. And in a War of Attrition, numbers always wins.



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YOU ARE NOT READY FOR IMMORTALITY!

 

[Markas]

Well, Delenn said that the oldest of the "first ones" were the Shadows. I guess that one could use age as the distinction in power levels. This could be flawed logic, though.

The Shadows homeworld was successfully attacted by Sheridan and we have no evidence that the Vorlon homeworld has ever been attacked, but the difference is that the Shadows go into a type of hibernation and the Vorlons remain vigelent. They defend their borders at all times and have the power to keep any force outside their empire.

Planet killers and death clouds...what's more powerful? Hard to say. I think they are equivelent enough to have had a few eons of battle without a distinct winner.

So, as "the first one," is Lorien personally powerful enough to take them all out if he wanted to?

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"I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain."
-Lily Tomlin

 

[whitestar90]

Hmmm vorlons or shadows.The vorlons seem to have greater firepower per ship but the shadows can grow ships faster, my answer is they would fight themselves to a standstill then they would get the younger races to fight for them to determine the winner...

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"When it is time, come to this place, call our name, we will be here" -Walkers of Sigma957

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

i'd go with the Vorlons. Sure the Shadows can produce more ships, but I'd bet they are lower quality and have less power than Vorlon ships. And saying they are older doesn't work much in the Shadows case. For the thousands (millions? billions?) of years they were "sleeping" the Vorlons could have surpassed thier technology and all that jazz. It'd be a long war though

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[hypatia]

Could Lorien stop the Shadows and the Vorlons? No. What parent can ever “stop” his children?

That's why he needed Sheridan and the younger races to "force the issue" to end this destructive cycle of sibling rivalry.


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"The Bible is a book: it is a good book, but is is not the only book" - Inherit the Wind

"I do not believe that the same God who
has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."—Galileo

hypatia@b5fan.b5lr.com

 

[eirik]

Vorlons or Shadows more powerful militarily? We have no evidence from the story either way. Vorlon low-tech or Shadow low-tech forces, we can speculate.

We learn from B5 and from the Technomage trilogy that long, long ago, 'rules of engagement' were negotiated between the two, mediated by Lorien.

The best speculation about the motivation for these 'rules' that I've come across is that unconstrained combat would be way too destructive.

In the Technomage trilogy, we learned what kind of power a technomage, with his/her implants, could yield. Those tiny implants. Imagine what 'First Ones' could do. No doubt, they could do much more, in my opinion.

In one B5 episode we heard some characters say that the First Ones, if they noticed us at all, could destroy us as easily as we could squash a slow moving, visible bug on a floor. Sure, this was speculation by 'young races'.

In the B5 universe, I never felt like we saw the full power of the First Ones. Afterall, they're millions of years ahead of us. Yet, the weapons we see them use aren't that much DIFFERENT from those of the younger races. Albeit, they are better and more powerful. But, they are not so much more so as compared to the younger races relative to prehistoric man, for example.

Again, remember what we learned in the Technomage trilogy. It suggests that there are far greater powers that can be wielded than what we saw in the regular B5 series.

I must confess one of my potential inconsistancies in my argument. Remember the 'Thirdspace' aliens? They were said to be even older than the Vorlons. They abide by no 'rules of engagement'. Yet, the younger races were able to destroy their ships. Although, they had to hit their ships quite a lot to kill them. And, their ships, though they were only fighters, weren't exactly blowing cruisers away with one shot.

I suppose one might offset this point in favor of my first one argument that the 'Thirdspace' aliens may not be as technologically advanced as our First Ones because they don't need to be. These aliens were said to ALL be telepathic, and very powerfully so. Thus, they could conquer more technologically advanced races by turning a significant percentage of said races against themselves. Remember, necessity is the mother of invention, so those aliens may not need to be so advanced. Although, after so much time, you'd think they'd be more advanced. It may be a cultural thing too where technology and science are not as highly regarded.

Well, I'm afraid my post may already require a jump point to get from one end to the other.

Cheers,

Eirik

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It never ends; it only changes!

 

[superbob]

Chaos and order, the proverbial primordeal soup of the universe. Without one, the other cannot exist. In this particular instance the Vorlons represent "order" and ,of course, the shadows represent the other end of the spectrum. I honestly think thgat the two sides are equally balanced. The Vorlons manipulated the younger races until they had developed sufficiently to become tributry races to the cause of good. Probably because they were that way inclined. The shadows attracted the darker end of the spectrum. The whole thing of "birds of a feather flock together".
If you look at the younger races in the bigger scheme of things, thay have all more or less reached the crawling stage. The Minbari would probably be the the closest to taking their first baby steps. In actual fact Delenn may have helped them take it already.
To carry on with analgy I've used here, the vorlons and the shadows have fought a battle of attrition for thousands of years, with neither being completely victorious. AThe last great war they drove them off yes, but they managed to hide with enough of their strength to return in force. These two, although first ones, are probably at the teenage stage. Doing somthing just for the sake of doing it. Fighting a war with no real reason except for the ideal that they say they stand for. Survival of the fittest etc. Lorien stepped in because both of them had to grow up, literally. The younger races were in the field now.
I know that I got a little sidetracked here but my point is simple, neither one of the two is more powerful than the other. stalemate can sometimes be worse than a victory!

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"I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light. I come to take the place that has been prepared for me"

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

There can be no stalemate between such forces. The only result of direct battle would have been mutual destruction -- with or without the younger races.

As neither wanted to risk their own hide, they set up certain rules... among these the rule of not attacking each other.

As for their power... who knows. It has been mentioned that the Shadows are older. It has been said that they are rather sleepy, but move incredibly quickly when awake. It has been said that they have been driven away many times... but they always return.

As for maturity... they have grown up long ago. But just like everyone else, First Ones too can forget their principles. I tend to think that they have known better -- but have simply forgotten. They needed someone to remind them.

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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

 

[GeoKuutio]

I'll put my bet on Vorlons, at least they look like they are more.. strategic and powerful, or evenly matched. But.. I don't understand this one, little thingie. In B5LR where did the Hands came? As it was said that they were also old race that had destroyed others etc. So why Vorlons or Shadows didn't engaged them earlier if they knew about them.

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Logical thinking - Perfect weapon

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
Eirik said:
In the B5 universe, I never felt like we saw the full power of the First Ones. Afterall, they're millions of years ahead of us. Yet, the weapons we see them use aren't that much DIFFERENT from those of the younger races. Albeit, they are better and more powerful. But, they are not so much more so as compared to the younger races relative to prehistoric man, for example.

Again, remember what we learned in the Technomage trilogy. It suggests that there are far greater powers that can be wielded than what we saw in the regular B5 series.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that in this regard, the show is limited by the fact that it is humans who wrote and implemented B5. JMS gave us races that were for all purposes vast, infinite, powerful, the first mark of sentience in the vastness of the universe. Yet, there is only so much that we can imagine all these features and attributes to be visually. JMS comes to the CGI crew and says here is the race I have envisioned. There is then a limit on our technology and the human capacity of imagination to take the idea of infinitude and put it to a visual medium.

I think that it is this fact that makes this idea so great but at the same time limits it in the number of times it can be implemented. How many times can someone truly say "this is the oldest, strongest, most advanced race in the galaxy." That is why, in my opinion, the race in Thirdspace came out more hokey than believable. They were so powerful, that the Vorlons, THEMSELVES, banished them. Yet were defeated in 20 minutes.

I fear that this may be a problem with "Legend of the Rangers". We have been given yet another all-powerful, omniscent race-the "Hand". There is one difference with the "Hand", we have an entire show dedicated to their development and mystique instead of an hour and a half movie.

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YOU ARE NOT READY FOR IMMORTALITY!

 

[Arrghman]

in an all out war between the shadows and the vorlons, they'd have annialated each other and most of the galaxy along with it. i thought that implication was pretty clear once they both started using planet killers... in other words neither is stronger then the other. if one of them was stronger, they would have destroyed the other long ago...

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### Hi, I'm a sig virus. Please add me to the end of your signature so I can take over the world.### - caught from Saps @ B5MG

 

[Mondo Londo]

Well, as to the statement that the Shadows were able to kill easily Kosh (or most of him):

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>
We learn in the Techno-Mage trilogy that Kosh wasn't resisting the Shadows. He knew he broke the rules, that death was the penalty, so he allowed himself to be killed (mostly).
</font></td></tr></table>

As for older civilizations being the most powerful -- most people Greece to be the cradle of democracy. Is Greece the world's most powerful democracy?

I don't know who'd win a fight between the Shadows and Vorlons. However, I'm confident they both throw as many younger races as they could into harm's way before they risked themselves.


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"What's up, Drakh?"

Michael Garibaldi

 

[Arrghman]

plus, morden typically had 2 shadows with him, and 2 shadows is greater then 1 vorlon

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### Hi, I'm a sig virus. Please add me to the end of your signature so I can take over the world.### - caught from Saps @ B5MG

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
Arrghman said:
in an all out war between the shadows and the vorlons, they'd have annialated each other and most of the galaxy along with it. i thought that implication was pretty clear once they both started using planet killers... in other words neither is stronger then the other. if one of them was stronger, they would have destroyed the other long ago...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought it was also clear that even if one of them had the power to kill the other, they wouldn't. The part about killing the message not the messenger. If you kill the messenger, you only prove that you are stronger, not that your message is the right one.

Of course I don't really know that I like the how the Vorlons handled that. They interfere at a genetic level to make sure they have weapons against the Shadows. And they bring up races with truly only one vision. The Shadows on the other hand hibernate and give races a chance to evolve by their own devices and ideas and then come around every thousand years and test that evolution. Albeit, mass genocide is a pretty harsh test. I agree more with the Vorlon philosophy of Order, but think that the Shadows were more, for lack of a better word, ethical in letting the younger races find their own way.

A Vorlon said that knowledge is a three-edged sword. Sheridan translated that into Vorlons, Shadows, and the Truth. My opinion is that Truth is an amalgamation of both philosophies of chaos and order.

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YOU ARE NOT READY FOR IMMORTALITY!

 

[Arrghman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I thought it was also clear that even if one of them had the power to kill the other, they wouldn't. The part about killing the message not the messenger. If you kill the messenger, you only prove that you are stronger, not that your message is the right one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah, thats certanly how the whole thing started... but by into the fire, when the two sides met with sheridan's forces in the middle they just started going at each other, ignoring the younger races till they set off the nukes

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### Hi, I'm a sig virus. Please add me to the end of your signature so I can take over the world.### - caught from Saps @ B5MG

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
Arrghman said
yeah, thats certanly how the whole thing started... but by into the fire, when the two sides met with sheridan's forces in the middle they just started going at each other, ignoring the younger races till they set off the nukes
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do remember at Coriana 6 when they were just going for each other without noticing Sheridan's forces. I wonder if they did that knowing that this would be just a battle, not a systematic destruction of the opponent. I also wonder how they all went away. When Lorien took them beyond the rim, did portals just open up everywhere and all Shadows and Vorlons left? Or was it an on-going process?

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YOU ARE NOT READY FOR IMMORTALITY!

 

[bakana]

Using Kosh's death as a measure of Shadow power, you have to remember that it took THREE Shadows to kill him.
And even then, he stuck with Defending himself.
When Sheridan, Kosh & Lorien took out Ulkesh, it became evident that Kosh could have done much More if he had been willing to damage Babylon 5 in the fight.

Plus, in the First encounter we saw between Kosh and Morden's Shadow(s), Kosh came out of it with only minor damage to his encounter suit.
We never did know what happened to the Shadow(s) in that encounter.
They may have just gotten kicked off B5.
Or, Kosh might actually have killed one of them.

That could be why Morden was accompanied by 2 or More Shadows every time we saw him after that.

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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Greetings

Two combats to consider:

Ship to Ship: what does it matter? upon reaching the ability to destroy planets fighting becomes useless. Like Cold War of the 20th Century: both side had the power to wipe each other out but wouldn't for they understood that there wouldn't be survivor to rebuild....nor would there be anything worth rebuilding.

Being to Being: Vorlons all the way. Centari killed two unarmed shadows at the order of

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> Londo </font></td></tr></table>

in the "Into the Fire". Unarmed Vorlon took on a lot of humans who could not have killed it. Thus Hand to tentacle to energy Vorlons win

Weaponry....we can't judge, insufficient data.

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Say Zog to Kumabya
<A HREF="mailto:
kolya@softhome.net">
kolya@softhome.net</A>

 

[Arrghman]

well i would think that biologically both races are representative of their own ideologies, as hinted by the technomage trilogy

<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>kosh's body was described as different layers in a highly organised structure</font></td></tr></table>

so going by this, i would imagine that there are fewer vorlons but each individual one is stronger... and there are more shadows, but each is weaker. just like how the vorlon planet killer was a big massive device and the shadow one was made up of thousands of little devices...

so one on one a vorlon will win, but if you threw all the vorlons and shadows together it would all equal out...

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### Hi, I'm a sig virus. Please add me to the end of your signature so I can take over the world.### - caught from Saps @ B5MG

 

[whitestar90]

There is no doubt that hand to hand combat the vorlon would kick the shadows butt.
From the third technomage book


<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> When Morden and 3 shadows came to kill Kosh, the 3 shadows were apprehensive, were abit afraid if kosh would actually fight back </font></td></tr></table>



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"When it is time, come to this place, call our name, we will be here" -Walkers of Sigma957