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Vorlons or Shadows?

  • Thread starter **DONOTDELETE**
  • Start date
that doesnt mean that kosh would have 'kicked their butts'... it could mean that he could have killed one or two of them before he himself died. i would suspect that the shadows dont like having one of them die anymore then the vorlons do...

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### Hi, I'm a sig virus. Please add me to the end of your signature so I can take over the world.### - caught from Saps @ B5MG
 
So the First Ones went beyond the Rim. Did they go to other dimension or to some far,far away part of space? Are they able to return, so could The Hand be one of the First Ones that got bored Beyond the Rim?

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"Blood calls out for blood"
-Londo Mollari
"Midnight on the firing line" B5
 
Isn't the rim the edge of explored space?

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<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>lorien came back to get sheridan</font></td></tr></table>

so why cant anyone else come back?

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### Hi, I'm a sig virus. Please add me to the end of your signature so I can take over the world.### - caught from Saps @ B5MG
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Arrghman:


<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>lorien came back to get sheridan</font></td></tr></table>

so why cant anyone else come back?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do we need to spoiler this anymore? I get confused about the rules.


<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> Lorien may be a "special case". He IS THE first one, if we believe him on that. He does seem to have influence over the shadows and vorlons.

Perhaps he has a more flexible "First One Travel Visa". </font></td></tr></table>

laugh.gif


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"The Bible is a book: it is a good book, but is is not the only book" - Inherit the Wind

"I do not believe that the same God who
has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."—Galileo

hypatia@b5fan.b5lr.com
 
Did they go to die there ( sort of space Florida ) or they populated that part of space/ dimension and will continue to live there?
If they continue to live there then we have many possibilities for future B5- flavorued projects ( like one of the First Ones is banished and has to go back or First Ones meet new enemy/es Beyond the Rim -eg. Thirdspace Aliens, etc).

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"Blood calls out for blood"
-Londo Mollari
"Midnight on the firing line" B5
 
oh i dont even know what the rules are, im just being overly careful so no one yells at me
tongue.gif


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Perhaps he has a more flexible "First One Travel Visa". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL!
laugh.gif


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### Hi, I'm a sig virus. Please add me to the end of your signature so I can take over the world.### - caught from Saps @ B5MG

[This message has been edited by Arrghman (edited February 04, 2002).]
 
I have to agree with the assumptions that there are probably more Shadows than Vorlons. But Vorlons are individually much stronger than the Shadows. That is probably why you see many shadows at one time while you only really see one Vorlon at a time and very rarely do you see two Vorlons at the same time (In fact, "In the Beginning" is the only time I can think of where there were two Vorlons at the same time). It's sort of like a 10 tarantula's and a Great Dane. The Great Dane might hurt some of them but after a while the tarantula's poison will start doing some damage.

As for the question about the First Ones and what does 'beyond the rim' mean. I think that the rim is the outer reaches of our galaxy (The Milky Way). They might have gone to another galaxy, some celestial haven existing between galaxies. I don't think its a parallel dimension or different universe. As for the Hand being a First One that came back, I would think that would be unlikely. Lorien made it sound that the journey beyond the rim is a one way trip.

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YOU ARE NOT READY FOR IMMORTALITY!
 
I don't believe unconstrained conflict between the Shadows and Vorlons would yield mutual TOTAL destruction of both sides. However, I believe that the extreme degree of destruction that would be rendered was what deterred them.

Even though the Vorlons and Shadows have little regard for individual younger race folk, or even a handful of races altogether. The Vorlons and Shadows do in fact care about the younger races. Either one could have wiped out all of the younger races at any time in the last million years. They may have joined forces to force the 'Hand' into exile (I don't know which of the First One's were in fact involved. I think I heard from someone referring to "AoG", a game, that Lorien and the "Triad" may have driven them off without the Vorlons and Shadows.). Bottom line, both of them stayed behind to sherpherd the younger races. They competed as to the best way to accelerate their ascension to highly evolved species.

Given their compassion for the younger races, I would expect that unconstrained conflict between the Shadows and Vorlons would likely wipe out many, many of the younger races altogether. Thus, this deterred them from all out war. Not to mention, they themselves would have endured unacceptable losses.

I agree with the poster, can't remember who, that our very limited understanding of the universe constrains us on telling stories involving races millions of years ahead of us. Very good point. I've been wondering how JMS might deal with this if he ever chose to tell us more about the First Ones.

I imagine the roll-out of the story of the Hand in the Rangers series will have some parallels to Thirdspace. In Thirdspace, if we hadn't stopped their capital ships from traversing the gate, the younger races may have been incapable of driving off the 3rd space aliens. I wonder if this would have motivated our First Ones into returning to fend of these aliens. Similarly, I suspect that if the Hand ever builds a dimensional gate on our side and that they traverse it with some critical mass of their resources that the younger races would be incapable of defeating the hand.

What may be of interest in the Rangers series, might be the dynamics between the Hand and its allies on our side. Their allies would be motivated to vy for ever more advanced technology over placing construction of a dimensional gate whereas the Hand would want the other way around. Until the Hand enters our dimension, their reach is extremely limited I should think.

Cheers,

Eirik



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It never ends; it only changes!
 
I have always suspected that if Kosh and the Shadows would have gotten really nasty, there would have been no Babylon 5 around them. But both had interest in the beings and processes happening around, so neither considered splitting atoms.

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Vorlons carry their tech around them. They know telepathy and telekinesis. Their encounter suit has powerful tools, weapons and protective means. They have a strong bond with their ship. If a Vorlon is attacked, its ship would automatically assist it (unless it treated its ship badly).

Even if they get arrogant and let their suit be destroyed, they are more than enough to take on countless soldiers of the younger races. Only being attacked by an unlikely combination of Kosh (knew Vorlon weaknesses), Lorien (had the energy) and Sheridan (had the determination) allowed Ulkesh to be defeated with seeming ease.

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Shadows carry their tech in them. They don't believe in defense and are easy to hurt if surprised. They believe in attack, quick adaptation and unpredictable means. A few PPG shots will kill them or hurt them badly.

But their minds may be computer-enhanced, immune to telepathy and harmful to anyone who wanders inside. They carry no ordinary weapons, but ordinary weapons are not their way. They move unseen and ensure that when they attack, their first touch will be enough.

Once a Shadow has touched someone, either directly or via a weapon, the target may be considered gone. It might collapse in a spell of destruction or be infected and eaten by nanomachines. They don't like actively using weapons, they like building weapons which fight for them. I would suspect that if ready to fight, they could do more than a technomage can.

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So we could say that the fight between Kosh and three Shadows was not a fight. Kosh never tried to strike back and the Shadows slowly tore it apart "with bare hands".

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 07, 2002).]
 
Kosh knew what the consequences of his actions would be. He made a decision and stood by it. Paying the ultimate price. The Vorlons and shadows may be far beyond human comprehension. They do share certain characteristics. arrogance, hatred etc. Ulkesh and Kosh represented to different sides to the Vorlon which initially we didn't know existed. Kosh represented all the good and paid the price because understanding doesn't come cheaply. Personally I think a one on one would have left three very greasy shadow spots on the wall.
laugh.gif


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"I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light. I come to take the place that has been prepared for me"
 
Vorlons are right, Vorlons are powerful.

Vorlons are older than the maelstrom, Vorlons do not stench of chaos.

Order is supreme, if you do not agree to any mentioned facts, you will learn obidience, and you will obey order.

Chaos is small compared to the force of Order.

FACT: Shadows are a little older than the Vorlons.
FACT: Vorlons, not being beaten in any Great War, had time to advance, while the shadows had to wait a long time to further their technological advances.
FACT: I'm sexy.
FACT: Vorlon transports are stronger than Shadow ships and can be ordered to fight, they don't even need a living being abord.
FACT: Vorlon skin on their ships learn in combat, Shadow ships can only learn as much as their controler.
FACT: Shadow Ships can be blocked by telepaths.
FACT: Shadows can't even withstand Centauri rifles, while a Vorlon can't be taken down by most of B5's security team.

Order prevails.

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Martin: "I should have brought my gun."
Debi: "What?!"
Martin: "Should be fun!" - Grosse Pointe Blank
Slappy's Solar System!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Order prevails.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. Chaos prevails.

1. Shadows are quick.

In spite of sleeping, the Shadows never fell behind. When they are awake, they move with incredible speed. Imagine what could happen if they would stay awake? When they would devote their time and resources?

2. Shadows need no defense.

Defenses can be broken. When an orderly defense fails, the system crumbles. When the defense of Shadows is broken, they disappear, and strike back from behind you.

They bend, but never break. They have no need for encounter suits. If one fails, another will try differently. You strike one down... and a thousand others will learn. And when they get annoyed, their touch will be devastating.

3. Shadows are efficient.

They can produce more and rebuild faster, their worst weapons are not only powerful, but impossible to defend against. The original Shadow planetkiller has no centre, no structure, no vulnerable points.

4. Shadows are nice.

Would you dare to compare a sleek and dark Shadow with one of those... yellowish green abominations? There is no contest. The Shadows look nicer. They are also more sociable and use longer sentences.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 14, 2002).]
 
I agree with the shadow's "Strength through conflict. But complete chaos is imposible. Order is always around. Even the Shadows have a form of order. So, I must rule in favor of the Vorlons.

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-With every light is born a shadow-
 
Lennier: Impudent, you will learn obedience.
Numbers are not as important as power and wisdom.

The Shadows are contradictory, they do not recognise their own order, they will crumble. Chaos never survives.

FACT: The Shadows have never, NEVER, EVER won any of the Great Wars. Which says a lot.

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Martin: "I should have brought my gun."
Debi: "What?!"
Martin: "Should be fun!" - Grosse Pointe Blank
Slappy's Solar System!
 
According to Hindu mythology (and I think the Babylonian creation myth) Order and Chaos follow a cycle. Out of chaos comes order, the light drives away the dark... for a time, then it comes back, and so on. The answer then (based on the myth that jms based them on) the Vorlons win... but not for long... Ultimately no side can ever win...

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by newstarinthesky:
According to Hindu mythology (and I think the Babylonian creation myth) Order and Chaos follow a cycle. Out of chaos comes order, the light drives away the dark... for a time, then it comes back, and so on. The answer then (based on the myth that jms based them on) the Vorlons win... but not for long... Ultimately no side can ever win...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, permanent stalemate then?


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"I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain."
-Lily Tomlin
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> So, permanent stalemate then? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, the myth clearly states that it is an eternal cycle of Alternating Victories.

Neither side can ever fully conquor the other and they go back and forth.
Each side gains ascendancy for a time while the Other bides its time and builds enough strength to topple the other.
but neither can ever Destroy the other because both Good and Evil are Defined by their opposites.

If there Were no Evil, Good could not exist either because there would be nothing to compare it to.



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Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Lennier: Impudent, you will learn obedience.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Obedience is irrelevant.
laugh.gif

Motivation is better than command.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>So, permanent stalemate then?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A permanent stalemate might occur between light and darkness, good and evil. But the Shadows are not evil, just as the Vorlons are not good.

As their name suggests, they are not fully in darkness. They are in between, in the shadows. In confusion and chaos. Chaos is grey. When you randomly plot pixels of every color, the screen will eventually go grey. At least that's where they were, before they forgot their principles and became fixed in their ways.

This is what I consider a similarity between the Shadows and Minbari. The Minbari try to be grey. The Shadows also tried, but lost their balance while forcing the Vorlons to lose theirs.

In the end, they erred because of their hostility towards each other. The same contradiction could have carried on to Humans and Minbari, with both forcing the other to lose their balance. If anything prevented this, it was remembering the last Shadow war, and learning from the mistake.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited February 15, 2002).]
 
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