DaRkEnEdStAr
Regular
who would win if they had a fight ? Lorien or Ulkesh ?
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Vorlons vs. Lorien
- Thread starter DaRkEnEdStAr
- Start date
sleepy_shadow
Regular
First, it would depend on what they would want. As different beings, they would not be equally suited for seeking every objective.
Secondly, it depends on which proportion of "stuff" First Ones carry around (compared to their ability to assemble/invent tools/weapons in real time). Rather difficult to estimate, I would say.
In most situations of conflict, a Vorlon could rely on its encounter suit and personal ship. Lorien might not posess such stuff -- and might therefore depend on nearby matter/energy possible to craft into a weapon.
In long-term conflict, ability to coordinate building would decide results. But if the goal were finding a crucial piece of information and getting away with it... ability for long-term building would hardly matter.
I cannot tell. Could not possibly tell. Except for the opinion that Ulkesh seemed of a fairly inflexible jarhead type, and that every contradiction of interest depends on which interest contradicts.
Secondly, it depends on which proportion of "stuff" First Ones carry around (compared to their ability to assemble/invent tools/weapons in real time). Rather difficult to estimate, I would say.
In most situations of conflict, a Vorlon could rely on its encounter suit and personal ship. Lorien might not posess such stuff -- and might therefore depend on nearby matter/energy possible to craft into a weapon.
In long-term conflict, ability to coordinate building would decide results. But if the goal were finding a crucial piece of information and getting away with it... ability for long-term building would hardly matter.
I cannot tell. Could not possibly tell. Except for the opinion that Ulkesh seemed of a fairly inflexible jarhead type, and that every contradiction of interest depends on which interest contradicts.
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
Second, it would depend on who they were.
And third, it would depend on whether or not they had anything worth living for.
Regards,
Joe
P.S.
Depending on when the fight takes place, where they are going, who they serve and who they trust could also factor into the outcome.
sleepy_shadow
Regular
Yep. That's about it. Or is it?
It could also depend on how... no, better forget that.
It sort of depends on things.
It could also depend on how... no, better forget that.
It sort of depends on things.
sleepy_shadow
Regular
In terms of age, probably yes. In terms of ability, it is difficult to guess.
With regard to easily applicable reserves, Lorien does not appear to possess much. It exhibits gestures which I could read as exhaustion... even after healing a relatively simple form of life (Sheridan).
Of course, that was after the subject of this question -- a fight with Ulkesh. Unfortunately for answering this question, the fight did not occur purely between Ulkesh and Lorien.
It also included notable distraction (and some harm) from B5 security, betrayal by Lyta, notable energy from the station, probable knowledge of Vorlon weakness from Kosh, and something (desire to fight?) from Sheridan too. Lorien mentioned that it had contributed some of itself.
Still, basing on the impression I have developed, I can imagine Vorlon or Shadow technology healing Sheridan... a bit more efficiently. They may lack a personal touch, but can accomplish a lot.
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It is doubtful how much Vorlons respect Lorien. Certainly enough to talk and listen. However, respect might be diminished by Lorien's choice to take up residence on Z'ha'dum.
To some degree, Shadows appear to respect Lorien. I recall Lorien mentioning something... which suggested that Shadows returning to Z'ha'dum (as opposed to a random place) may be a gesture of respect.
Still, it appears they don't pay their co-habitant much attention. (While they don't appear to throw any trash down the hole, they don't appear to worship it either.)
How serious this respect is... naturally depends on whether Z'ha'dum was their original home, or did they move in later. If Z'ha'dum was their original homeworld, and the city above Lorien's residence existed before its arrival... then I can see others reasons for Shadows returning there.
With regard to easily applicable reserves, Lorien does not appear to possess much. It exhibits gestures which I could read as exhaustion... even after healing a relatively simple form of life (Sheridan).
Of course, that was after the subject of this question -- a fight with Ulkesh. Unfortunately for answering this question, the fight did not occur purely between Ulkesh and Lorien.
It also included notable distraction (and some harm) from B5 security, betrayal by Lyta, notable energy from the station, probable knowledge of Vorlon weakness from Kosh, and something (desire to fight?) from Sheridan too. Lorien mentioned that it had contributed some of itself.
Still, basing on the impression I have developed, I can imagine Vorlon or Shadow technology healing Sheridan... a bit more efficiently. They may lack a personal touch, but can accomplish a lot.
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It is doubtful how much Vorlons respect Lorien. Certainly enough to talk and listen. However, respect might be diminished by Lorien's choice to take up residence on Z'ha'dum.
To some degree, Shadows appear to respect Lorien. I recall Lorien mentioning something... which suggested that Shadows returning to Z'ha'dum (as opposed to a random place) may be a gesture of respect.
Still, it appears they don't pay their co-habitant much attention. (While they don't appear to throw any trash down the hole, they don't appear to worship it either.)
How serious this respect is... naturally depends on whether Z'ha'dum was their original home, or did they move in later. If Z'ha'dum was their original homeworld, and the city above Lorien's residence existed before its arrival... then I can see others reasons for Shadows returning there.
sleepy_shadow
Regular
Could easily be so -- unfortunately, difficult to oppose or support with arguments.
Interesting take, but as the Shadows had been linked to Z'Ha'Dum even back when the First Ones were still around (see Delenn's reference to it circa 1,000 years ago) I always had the impresion that Lorien had "hidden" there because it WAS an Old One homeworld - one of only two he could have chosen. In other words, I thought of his self-imposed exile to be a result of his failure to convince the Shadows to abandon their plans to massively interfere, against their old obligations, with the Younger Races. Why go anywhere else once he had failed? His presence must have been a constant reminder, as he perhaps intended, that there was an older order who had trusted the Shadows to "do the right thing" and until the arrival of Sheridan he seemed to have no power but that of example.
At least, that's how I read it... reading from near-zero evidence, admittedly.
PillowRock
Regular
But 1000 years ago is very short term, relative to First Ones policy decisions.
I thought that when Lorien and Sheridan were talking "between tick and tock", Lorien said specifically that the reason the Shadows keep coming back to Z'ha'dum was because he was there. Lorien seemed to think that this was a bit of a pointless show of respect, since he considered them to have lost their way in much more important ways.
I thought that when Lorien and Sheridan were talking "between tick and tock", Lorien said specifically that the reason the Shadows keep coming back to Z'ha'dum was because he was there. Lorien seemed to think that this was a bit of a pointless show of respect, since he considered them to have lost their way in much more important ways.
But the point is that when the First Ones "still walked openly among us" Z'Ha'Dum was already the Shadows' "ancient home."
And while the discussion between them says that the Shadows return to Z'Ha'Dum, perhaps, because Lorien is there, this says nothing whatever about whether the Shadows or Lorien arrived there first. I think the fact that the term "homeworld" is used for the Shadows and Z'Ha'Dum is suggestive, though.
PillowRock
Regular
The phrase "ancient home" would have a very different meaning to Shadows or Lorien than it would to Minbari. We hear Minbari use it.
How long would you think that Shadows would have to live somewhere for their minions to call it their "home world". The fact that Morden or Anna Sheridan call Z'ha'dum the Shadows' "home world", or even if a Shadow did (though we never hear them directly, that I can remember, except in Into the Fire where they don't have occassion to refer to the planet), does not necessarily mean that the planet is their place of origin. It has been where they have lived for a long time, but that is not the same thing.
How long would you think that Shadows would have to live somewhere for their minions to call it their "home world". The fact that Morden or Anna Sheridan call Z'ha'dum the Shadows' "home world", or even if a Shadow did (though we never hear them directly, that I can remember, except in Into the Fire where they don't have occassion to refer to the planet), does not necessarily mean that the planet is their place of origin. It has been where they have lived for a long time, but that is not the same thing.
