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vorlons vs shadows
- Thread starter jnk5y
- Start date
A_Ranger
Regular
Of course it's going to hurt them more. That's why they created telepaths, planet killers, and tried to manipulate the other races into doing it first
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We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it
------------------
We're all born as molecules in the hearts of a billion stars, molecules that do not understand politics, policies and differences. In a billion years we, foolish molecules forget who we are and where we came from. Desperate acts of ego. We give ourselves names, fight over lines on maps. And pretend our light is better than everyone else's. The flame reminds us of the piece of those stars that live inside us. A spark that tells us: you should know better. The flame also reminds us that life is precious, as each flame is unique. When it goes out, it's gone forever. And there will never be another quite like it
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
I think most of the fighters on both sides are remote-controlled. As for general strategy... it is quality versus quantity.
As the Vorlons participate directly, they risk with their own lives and naturally use quality ships. Their ships are powerful, their telepathic ability can easily distract Shadow vessels. One Vorlon cruiser may easily fight against several Shadow vessels.
The Shadows avoid direct battle, considering it inefficient. They build/grow more ships than the Vorlons, equip them with the cheapest and most powerful computers (living beings) and send them to their death, only to build more. At least that is their usual practise.
They might choose to personally fly their planetkillers, but the strange structure (or lack thereof) of the Shadow planetkiller leaves it unclear how it is guided.
Given that the Shadows had to travel long before the current generation of battlecrabs came into existence, they might use different ships where their personal safety is concerned.
------------------
"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn
As the Vorlons participate directly, they risk with their own lives and naturally use quality ships. Their ships are powerful, their telepathic ability can easily distract Shadow vessels. One Vorlon cruiser may easily fight against several Shadow vessels.
The Shadows avoid direct battle, considering it inefficient. They build/grow more ships than the Vorlons, equip them with the cheapest and most powerful computers (living beings) and send them to their death, only to build more. At least that is their usual practise.
They might choose to personally fly their planetkillers, but the strange structure (or lack thereof) of the Shadow planetkiller leaves it unclear how it is guided.
Given that the Shadows had to travel long before the current generation of battlecrabs came into existence, they might use different ships where their personal safety is concerned.
------------------
"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn
RW7427
Super Moderator
Right. I think that is part of the reason why you don't see the Vorlons directly engaging the Shadows. They know they could lose their own people when the Shadows are just losing people like humans that they have stuck inside their ships. Plus they have that ages old rule about not fighting each other directly. So if the Shadows are plugging people into their ships and the Vorlons are using races like the Humans and Minbari to fight for them, then they can oppose each other without crossing the line and violating the agreements made with each other long ago.
------------------
Dulann: You don't solve your problems by hitting them.
David Martel: Yeah, well, it made me feel better.
------------------
Dulann: You don't solve your problems by hitting them.
David Martel: Yeah, well, it made me feel better.
whitestar90
Regular
Thats right and when the vorlons openly engaged the shadows even though vorlon ships seemed more powerful but the price for the victory was that Kosh had to surrender himself to darkness....
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"When it is time, come to this place, call our name, we will be here" -Walkers of Sigma957
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"When it is time, come to this place, call our name, we will be here" -Walkers of Sigma957
You are assuming that a Living, Intelligent Vorlon ship NEEDS a Pilot.
A Vorlon ship IS the pilot.
And, if the Shadows are never in Their ships and so don't "care" about their ship losses, Why were they so annoyed with Kosh that they killed him??
The only good explanation for Kosh being killed is that there Was a Shadow in at least One of the ships the Vorlons destroyed.
The Shadow ships tend to get a little bit carried away when not being restrained.
They may prefer to supervise groups of them in person so they can be sure that what gets destroyed is what they Wanted destroyed.
And not everything Else, too.
An Shadow ship assigned to destroy a Settlement will try to destroy the entire Planet if not restrained.
------------------
Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."
A Vorlon ship IS the pilot.
And, if the Shadows are never in Their ships and so don't "care" about their ship losses, Why were they so annoyed with Kosh that they killed him??
The only good explanation for Kosh being killed is that there Was a Shadow in at least One of the ships the Vorlons destroyed.
The Shadow ships tend to get a little bit carried away when not being restrained.
They may prefer to supervise groups of them in person so they can be sure that what gets destroyed is what they Wanted destroyed.
And not everything Else, too.
An Shadow ship assigned to destroy a Settlement will try to destroy the entire Planet if not restrained.
------------------
Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."
The Technomage trilogy was canon.
In the trilogy, we learn about the
<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>awesome power of the mages. They could tap into the 'power of the universe' or something to that effect. Put in a little more perspective, Galen could unleash a tremendous amount of power due to implants within his body. Talk about POWER DENSITY!
If Galen's implants can act as a conduit of such incredible power, imagine what a larger conduit could do, assuming size does matter (We are talking about fantasy physics. Hell, anything involving such high energy and interdimensional physics is awfully fantastic given our current state of understanding.).
Okay, so assuming bigger conduits yield bigger bangs, a very reasonable assumption, imagine what First Ones, Shadows and Vorlons, could do. They could wield incredible destruction well beyond what we saw with their planet killers, yes their planet killers.</font></td></tr></table>
I suspect that Lorien intervened to mediate the formation of rules of engagement between the Vorlons and Shadows to prevent or stop the massive destruction that unconstrained clashes between them could/did yield. Thus, the rules of engagement specified the types of weaponary/equipment that was permissable in addition to how it could be used.
Further, they probably agreed upon rules about what they could and couldn't do with the younger races.
Perhaps, they were not permitted to genetically engineer new species entirely. I know the Vorlons modified the genetic code of many to introduce telepathy to many races. But this is far different from engineering species from scratch.
Anyway, because of the Technomage trilogy, I believe that the Shadow and Vorlon spacecraft were intentionally limited in their capabilities and that they could easily have wielded far more powerful weaponary.
I've been wondering if JMS was 100% comfortable with this implication that the trilogy made. I'm not saying it is a glaring contradiction. I'm saying that it is a very influential element in the B5 universe.
You see, I find it interesting that, while clearly more advanced than the technology of the younger races, the First One's spacecraft seem somewhat conventional compared to what they should be capable of doing considering what we learn in the mage trilogy.
That said, the combat we witnessed between the Shadows and Vorlons were essentially just conflicts among their chess pieces. I don't think we ever saw or read about anything that the Vorlons or Shadows would consider capital ships by their standards. Thank goodness too, because they'd be so incredibly powerful.
Now, tying this to the Rangers tapestry (a spoiler for those that may not have seen it),
<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>the 'Hand' are considered First One's. They are NOT, as far as we know, constrained by any rules of engagement. In fact, from what we know of them, the other First One's banished them BECAUSE the 'Hand' were so reckless and destructive.
Finally, consider what the 'Hand' could do in the B5 universe in the absence of the First One's. Given these points, I think the 'Hand' have not re-entered our dimension yet. However, they have found a way to communicate and influence our dimension. This would explain why they haven't simply overwhelmed the younger races with their incredibly destructive 'power of the universe' technology. I suspect that they're trying to get a younger race(s) to construct a "gate" so that the 'Hand' can return to our dimension and kick ass in an unthinkable manner.</font></td></tr></table>
Well, lots of fun.
Eirik
------------------
It never ends; it only changes!
In the trilogy, we learn about the
<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>awesome power of the mages. They could tap into the 'power of the universe' or something to that effect. Put in a little more perspective, Galen could unleash a tremendous amount of power due to implants within his body. Talk about POWER DENSITY!
If Galen's implants can act as a conduit of such incredible power, imagine what a larger conduit could do, assuming size does matter (We are talking about fantasy physics. Hell, anything involving such high energy and interdimensional physics is awfully fantastic given our current state of understanding.).
Okay, so assuming bigger conduits yield bigger bangs, a very reasonable assumption, imagine what First Ones, Shadows and Vorlons, could do. They could wield incredible destruction well beyond what we saw with their planet killers, yes their planet killers.</font></td></tr></table>
I suspect that Lorien intervened to mediate the formation of rules of engagement between the Vorlons and Shadows to prevent or stop the massive destruction that unconstrained clashes between them could/did yield. Thus, the rules of engagement specified the types of weaponary/equipment that was permissable in addition to how it could be used.
Further, they probably agreed upon rules about what they could and couldn't do with the younger races.
Perhaps, they were not permitted to genetically engineer new species entirely. I know the Vorlons modified the genetic code of many to introduce telepathy to many races. But this is far different from engineering species from scratch.
Anyway, because of the Technomage trilogy, I believe that the Shadow and Vorlon spacecraft were intentionally limited in their capabilities and that they could easily have wielded far more powerful weaponary.
I've been wondering if JMS was 100% comfortable with this implication that the trilogy made. I'm not saying it is a glaring contradiction. I'm saying that it is a very influential element in the B5 universe.
You see, I find it interesting that, while clearly more advanced than the technology of the younger races, the First One's spacecraft seem somewhat conventional compared to what they should be capable of doing considering what we learn in the mage trilogy.
That said, the combat we witnessed between the Shadows and Vorlons were essentially just conflicts among their chess pieces. I don't think we ever saw or read about anything that the Vorlons or Shadows would consider capital ships by their standards. Thank goodness too, because they'd be so incredibly powerful.
Now, tying this to the Rangers tapestry (a spoiler for those that may not have seen it),
<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>the 'Hand' are considered First One's. They are NOT, as far as we know, constrained by any rules of engagement. In fact, from what we know of them, the other First One's banished them BECAUSE the 'Hand' were so reckless and destructive.
Finally, consider what the 'Hand' could do in the B5 universe in the absence of the First One's. Given these points, I think the 'Hand' have not re-entered our dimension yet. However, they have found a way to communicate and influence our dimension. This would explain why they haven't simply overwhelmed the younger races with their incredibly destructive 'power of the universe' technology. I suspect that they're trying to get a younger race(s) to construct a "gate" so that the 'Hand' can return to our dimension and kick ass in an unthinkable manner.</font></td></tr></table>
Well, lots of fun.
Eirik
------------------
It never ends; it only changes!
Jade Jaguar
Regular
From all the discussion I have seen, it is generally accepted that Kosh was killed because he broke the longstanding rules of engagement with the Shadows, by having the Vorlons attack them directly, so I don't think it was just the loss of Shadow ships per se, with or without Shadows aboard that caused them to target Kosh.
That said, I can't prove it, but I have always assumed that there were at least a few Shadows aboard each capital ship, and probably a few soldiers of darkness too, sort of like a Marine gaurd. But as to who or what controls a Battle Crab, I don't have a good idea. I don't think they are run by human CPUs, or run themselves since they are organic tech, but there are times when we see Battle Crabs alone, so that would seem to rule out remote control by near by capital ships. So my best guess is that they used the pods later placed in Centauri vessels.
As to the Vorlons, we know their ships are sentient organic beings, but I still think that at least their capital ships had a Vorlon or two aboard to direct their actions. Perhaps the little Vorlon fighters used the Vorlon equivalent of a pod too.
------------------
You're speaking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Maid Marian
Fluently! Errol Flynn as Robin Hood
You're talking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Arabella Bishop
I trust I'm not obscure. Errol Flynn as Dr. Peter Blood
Pallindromes of the month: Snug was I, ere I saw guns.
Doom an evil deed, liven a mood.
That said, I can't prove it, but I have always assumed that there were at least a few Shadows aboard each capital ship, and probably a few soldiers of darkness too, sort of like a Marine gaurd. But as to who or what controls a Battle Crab, I don't have a good idea. I don't think they are run by human CPUs, or run themselves since they are organic tech, but there are times when we see Battle Crabs alone, so that would seem to rule out remote control by near by capital ships. So my best guess is that they used the pods later placed in Centauri vessels.
As to the Vorlons, we know their ships are sentient organic beings, but I still think that at least their capital ships had a Vorlon or two aboard to direct their actions. Perhaps the little Vorlon fighters used the Vorlon equivalent of a pod too.
------------------
You're speaking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Maid Marian
Fluently! Errol Flynn as Robin Hood
You're talking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Arabella Bishop
I trust I'm not obscure. Errol Flynn as Dr. Peter Blood
Pallindromes of the month: Snug was I, ere I saw guns.
Doom an evil deed, liven a mood.
At the end of the war we saw that although the Vorlons may have seemed different to the shadows initially ( and Kosh definitely was!) they eventually sank to a level rather similar to the shadows way of doing things. Who is to say that the Vorlons and Shadows are not very few in number? I mean if you look at some of the older races that joined in the fight, there were no mass fleets. There was one ship at best to represent that specific species!
I think that the Vorlons achieved the same end as the shadows. Telepathically powered ships. Shadows forced the telepathic angle but the Vorlons could have induced greater telepathic strength, Lyta for example! Nobody ever saw the inside of a Vorlon ship.
We at least saw schematics for the Shadow interior, run by a human telepath. The Vorlons had a habit of abducting humans, remember Jack the ripper? who is to say they didn't make off with human telepaths in the past?
Just a thought!
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"I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light. I come to take the place that has been prepared for me"
I think that the Vorlons achieved the same end as the shadows. Telepathically powered ships. Shadows forced the telepathic angle but the Vorlons could have induced greater telepathic strength, Lyta for example! Nobody ever saw the inside of a Vorlon ship.
We at least saw schematics for the Shadow interior, run by a human telepath. The Vorlons had a habit of abducting humans, remember Jack the ripper? who is to say they didn't make off with human telepaths in the past?
Just a thought!
------------------
"I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light. I come to take the place that has been prepared for me"
On the point about conducting or controlling the Shadow battlecrabs, we learned from the mage trilogy that it is
<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> the "Eye" </font></td></tr></table>
that does so.
Eirik
------------------
It never ends; it only changes!
<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black> the "Eye" </font></td></tr></table>
that does so.
Eirik
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It never ends; it only changes!
Kraig
Regular
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> If all the shadow vessals were run by people and all the vorlon ships are piloted by a vorlon isn't a battle between the two going to always hurt the vorlons more. Am i missing something? And also who's flying the small vorlon and shadow fighters? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I thought the shadow vessels used people as their CPUs and as such were only computer parts.
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Remember dear readers, you heard it here first. Off the record, on the Q.T., and very hush-hush - Danny DeVito as Sid Hudgens in L.A. Confidential
I thought the shadow vessels used people as their CPUs and as such were only computer parts.
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Remember dear readers, you heard it here first. Off the record, on the Q.T., and very hush-hush - Danny DeVito as Sid Hudgens in L.A. Confidential
essentially yes, the human component is the cpu but the trick comes in when you look at the vessel itself. It's organic and that starts to muddy up the water a bit. Nobody can really explain the vessel, it's part machine, part organism and also part sentient. How and to what degree we don't know but here is somthing we do know for certain. The vorlon shipes exhibit the exact same characteristics!
Makes you think!
------------------
"I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light. I come to take the place that has been prepared for me"
Makes you think!
------------------
"I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light. I come to take the place that has been prepared for me"
GaribaldisHair
Regular
On the subject of who controls shadow ships, from the Technomage trilogy:
<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>In all the sections involving Anna, when she was merged into a shadow ship, she talks as though she is controlling the ship under orders from "The Eye". I have always thought of it as kind of a collective - if that isn't too Star Trekky for comfort.</font></td></tr></table>
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DaveC
"Let me be the first to say that this is the nuttiest idea you've ever had."
<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>In all the sections involving Anna, when she was merged into a shadow ship, she talks as though she is controlling the ship under orders from "The Eye". I have always thought of it as kind of a collective - if that isn't too Star Trekky for comfort.</font></td></tr></table>
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DaveC
"Let me be the first to say that this is the nuttiest idea you've ever had."
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
Technomage spoilers as well, in reply to GaribaldisHair:
<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>Their mental connection is similar to that of a "collective mind", but they are not equal. They Eye sees what the vessels see, feels what they feel. They do not consciously "report back" or suggest anything. They only accept orders. What is even more strange, given the Shadow fondness of decentralized systems: the Eye is centralized.
If you follow the "chain of command" to the very top, you find a single person. A technomage who, in the right conditions can choose his/her actions and shut down the Eye.</font></td></tr></table>
------------------
"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn
<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>Their mental connection is similar to that of a "collective mind", but they are not equal. They Eye sees what the vessels see, feels what they feel. They do not consciously "report back" or suggest anything. They only accept orders. What is even more strange, given the Shadow fondness of decentralized systems: the Eye is centralized.
If you follow the "chain of command" to the very top, you find a single person. A technomage who, in the right conditions can choose his/her actions and shut down the Eye.</font></td></tr></table>
------------------
"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn
This all comes from the Agents of Gaming Babylon 5 Wars game, and in particular the "Wars of the Ancients" supplement (so has at least been past the canon, but YMMV)
The Shadows don't (currently) fly their own ships, but use the living CPUs (orders dispatched to these from the Eye) but did in Ancient times. Current day Shadow vessels are really quite puny compared to what a Shadow would be willing to go out in (and also could not be controlled by a mere CPU). The fighters are remote drones, controlled by the vessel's pilot be it CPU or Shadow as they are split off from the ship.
There's at least one Vorlon on each non fighter normally, controlling the beast directly. Apart from the fighters, which are piloted by members of vassal races.
All the Vorlon vessels apart from the fighters may operate autonomously, but at decreased effectiveness.
You also have to bear in mind that a lot of the vessels that looked like Vorlon transports in the battle scenes were in fact larger vessels (destroyers etc) - notably the one that is seen breaking through the battlecrab in the first battle and just looks the same (probably a transport that's been raised with lots and lots of steroids).
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Paddy Sinclair
"I think it's an excellent plan. But then, I've been shot through the head on five or six occasions"- Troop Leader Keitel, The Corps
The Shadows don't (currently) fly their own ships, but use the living CPUs (orders dispatched to these from the Eye) but did in Ancient times. Current day Shadow vessels are really quite puny compared to what a Shadow would be willing to go out in (and also could not be controlled by a mere CPU). The fighters are remote drones, controlled by the vessel's pilot be it CPU or Shadow as they are split off from the ship.
There's at least one Vorlon on each non fighter normally, controlling the beast directly. Apart from the fighters, which are piloted by members of vassal races.
All the Vorlon vessels apart from the fighters may operate autonomously, but at decreased effectiveness.
You also have to bear in mind that a lot of the vessels that looked like Vorlon transports in the battle scenes were in fact larger vessels (destroyers etc) - notably the one that is seen breaking through the battlecrab in the first battle and just looks the same (probably a transport that's been raised with lots and lots of steroids).
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Paddy Sinclair
"I think it's an excellent plan. But then, I've been shot through the head on five or six occasions"- Troop Leader Keitel, The Corps
so in other words.. we have never seen the true destructive power of a vorlon or shadow. Their ships are dumbed down versions of better ships. I guess that's why the other first ones kicked butt in into the fire cause those were actually their good ships. I get a little confused though. Can someone summarize for me on how really powerful the shadows and vorlons are.
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> how really powerful the shadows and vorlons are.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, the Vorlon Planet Killer was about the size of a small Moon.
And, when it attacked, the planet was Gone.
Not messed up. Gone.
Except for a truckload or so of Gravel where it Used to Be.
The thing to remember is that, considering their real objectives, they had a small problem with their most powerful weapons.
You don't spank a kid with a bazooka.
And, if you Destroy a Planet, it's a bit difficult for anything living on it to Grow and Evolve a greater intelligence.
So, they both limited themselves to weapons that would not cause Too Much damage.
Until they went off the deep end.
------------------
Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, the Vorlon Planet Killer was about the size of a small Moon.
And, when it attacked, the planet was Gone.
Not messed up. Gone.
Except for a truckload or so of Gravel where it Used to Be.
The thing to remember is that, considering their real objectives, they had a small problem with their most powerful weapons.
You don't spank a kid with a bazooka.
And, if you Destroy a Planet, it's a bit difficult for anything living on it to Grow and Evolve a greater intelligence.
So, they both limited themselves to weapons that would not cause Too Much damage.
Until they went off the deep end.
------------------
Do not ascribe your own motivations to others:
At best, it will break your heart.
At worst, it will get you dead."
RW7427
Super Moderator
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bakana:
You are assuming that a Living, Intelligent Vorlon ship NEEDS a Pilot.
A Vorlon ship IS the pilot.
And, if the Shadows are never in Their ships and so don't "care" about their ship losses, Why were they so annoyed with Kosh that they killed him??
The only good explanation for Kosh being killed is that there Was a Shadow in at least One of the ships the Vorlons destroyed.
The Shadow ships tend to get a little bit carried away when not being restrained.
They may prefer to supervise groups of them in person so they can be sure that what gets destroyed is what they Wanted destroyed.
And not everything Else, too.
An Shadow ship assigned to destroy a Settlement will try to destroy the entire Planet if not restrained.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This reminds me of the episode "Hunter, Prey" where Dr. Jacobs is on board B5 and that Cranston dude is looking for him. Sheridan hides him inside of Kosh's ship, and when Cranston insisted on scanning Kosh's ship, the computer said that only one lifeform was detected and that it wasn't human. Plus the good doctor said that while he was inside of the ship, it sang to him. Kosh didn't even need to be on board the ship for it to do that.
------------------
Dulann: You don't solve your problems by hitting them.
David Martel: Yeah, well, it made me feel better.
You are assuming that a Living, Intelligent Vorlon ship NEEDS a Pilot.
A Vorlon ship IS the pilot.
And, if the Shadows are never in Their ships and so don't "care" about their ship losses, Why were they so annoyed with Kosh that they killed him??
The only good explanation for Kosh being killed is that there Was a Shadow in at least One of the ships the Vorlons destroyed.
The Shadow ships tend to get a little bit carried away when not being restrained.
They may prefer to supervise groups of them in person so they can be sure that what gets destroyed is what they Wanted destroyed.
And not everything Else, too.
An Shadow ship assigned to destroy a Settlement will try to destroy the entire Planet if not restrained.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This reminds me of the episode "Hunter, Prey" where Dr. Jacobs is on board B5 and that Cranston dude is looking for him. Sheridan hides him inside of Kosh's ship, and when Cranston insisted on scanning Kosh's ship, the computer said that only one lifeform was detected and that it wasn't human. Plus the good doctor said that while he was inside of the ship, it sang to him. Kosh didn't even need to be on board the ship for it to do that.
------------------
Dulann: You don't solve your problems by hitting them.
David Martel: Yeah, well, it made me feel better.
GaribaldisHair
Regular
Thank you Lennier for your correction - you seem to have hit the nail on the hea there.
Just as a follow up to that point (trilogy again)
<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>I found it really interesting that as well as the Eye being such a centralized construct (oops Americanised spelling :rolleyes
Wierden passed control of the Eye to Galen because he had proved himself to have greater control than all the others.
Who would have thought that the centre of Shadow society was an ordered, centralised "being" whose primary qualification was control.</font></td></tr></table>
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DaveC
"Let me be the first to say that this is the nuttiest idea you've ever had."
Just as a follow up to that point (trilogy again)
<table bgcolor=black><tr><td bgcolor=black><font size=1 color=white>Spoiler:</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size=2 color=black>I found it really interesting that as well as the Eye being such a centralized construct (oops Americanised spelling :rolleyes
Who would have thought that the centre of Shadow society was an ordered, centralised "being" whose primary qualification was control.</font></td></tr></table>
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DaveC
"Let me be the first to say that this is the nuttiest idea you've ever had."
GaribaldisHair
Regular
And then I forgot the on-topic bit I wanted to add ...
As far as the original question is concerned, I think it depends how you look at it.
Assuming both sides have an equal number of ships, and lose an equal number in battle, certainly the Vorlons as a race will be the greater affected, particularly as no Vorlon before Kosh had died in a long time (as stated by Delenn in Interludes and Examinations).
However, both sides would have been equally affected militarily and strategically by the loss of ordnance and personpower.
As for the death of Kosh, it was always my belief that this was retribution for breaching the accepted rules of engagement, by persuading his forces to attack the Shadows directly.
This belief is reinforced by Kosh's resignation to his fate (even before he made the call), and the calm response of the Vorlon High Command.
There was no attempt to protect him, and no angry reply when he was killed. Both sides knew and accepted what must happen to Kosh for what he had done.
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DaveC
"Let me be the first to say that this is the nuttiest idea you've ever had."
[This message has been edited by GaribaldisHair (edited February 01, 2002).]
As far as the original question is concerned, I think it depends how you look at it.
Assuming both sides have an equal number of ships, and lose an equal number in battle, certainly the Vorlons as a race will be the greater affected, particularly as no Vorlon before Kosh had died in a long time (as stated by Delenn in Interludes and Examinations).
However, both sides would have been equally affected militarily and strategically by the loss of ordnance and personpower.
As for the death of Kosh, it was always my belief that this was retribution for breaching the accepted rules of engagement, by persuading his forces to attack the Shadows directly.
This belief is reinforced by Kosh's resignation to his fate (even before he made the call), and the calm response of the Vorlon High Command.
There was no attempt to protect him, and no angry reply when he was killed. Both sides knew and accepted what must happen to Kosh for what he had done.
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DaveC
"Let me be the first to say that this is the nuttiest idea you've ever had."
[This message has been edited by GaribaldisHair (edited February 01, 2002).]
