Vorlons!

[Ragzus]

Some random thoughts i had about the vorlons.

First off, Kosh's death killing a character is a good way to create drama he was a moderate character but not a major character from a story stand point it was a good idea.

I don't like it, I think the pace of season 3 and 4 could've been slower had kosh not died and not pushed the vorlons into an anti b5 pose as quickly. perhaps he could've been replaced "you've been tainted by that which you were meant to guide"

But i liked the character perhaps more than i was suppose to.


"We are all.. Kosh" - there have been assumptions that Kosh is a rank or like "Sensei" in japanese where its not really only said to teachers but people with more experience.
However the b5 wiki (http://babylon5.wikia.com/wiki/Ulkesh) lists ; Rank: Naranek
Which would assume that kosh isn't a title as they both have different first "names"
Also they both look so different why did they think everyone would be fooled by this?
and why did it work?? oh Kosh you just went through some black paint and anger management classes had a reverse effect? oh that's fine! lol

While the vorlons might make a good story choice for a movie it'd be a movie full of jar-jar binks cgi characters lol


Also 1000 years since the last war, the shadows were rebuilding, what were the vorlons doing?
If you win a war you do slow your building of ships but you make damn sure you have enough for the next one, but the vorlons are slow to re-build slower than the shadows?
Perhaps maybe because the shadows are using human beings as ships and vorlons refuse to do that? but why? the vorlons don't seem to like humans much more than the shadows do anyway, lying to genetically modfiying and leaving them be to the ensuing chaos that results from it.

I'd like to see more of kosh more of the vorlons but i don't know how it'd be done.
http://babylon5.wikia.com/wiki/Naranek

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Some random thoughts i had about the vorlons.

First off, Kosh's death killing a character is a good way to create drama he was a moderate character but not a major character from a story stand point it was a good idea.

I don't like it, I think the pace of season 3 and 4 could've been slower had kosh not died and not pushed the vorlons into an anti b5 pose as quickly. perhaps he could've been replaced "you've been tainted by that which you were meant to guide"

I actually don't think Kosh was SUPPOSED to die. At least not so early and not like that. I think JMS painted himself into a corner, and realized there was no logical way the Shadows WOULDN'T kill Kosh, and it strained credulity that they didn't.. So he did, and blamed it on Sheridan. I think he even admits this in the script:

Sheridan: "I know, I know, if I go to Z'ha'dum I will die."
Kosh: "Yes. Now."

Implying his fate wasn't sealed UNTIL there wasy no rational way NOT to remove Kosh from the story.

"We are all.. Kosh" - there have been assumptions that Kosh is a rank or like "Sensei" in japanese where its not really only said to teachers but people with more experience.
However the b5 wiki (http://babylon5.wikia.com/wiki/Ulkesh) lists ; Rank: Naranek
Which would assume that kosh isn't a title as they both have different first "names"

"We are all Kosh" implies something a little different than "We are all Sergent Majors." It means something, but JMS has never really explained it. He's said he knows how it works, but it's difficult to explain.

My own baseless hunch is this: the Vorlon were somewhere between a hive-mind and a corporate entity. Each Vorlon was a node of this consciousness, and was more-or-less autonomous, but fulfilled a certain function for the Vorlon consciousness as a whole. So "We are all Kosh" could mean somehting like "We are all the same person" or "We are all the same mind" or whatever.

We're told the vorlon went crazy when Kosh died. Kosh was the one who cared, who stayed their hands. Perhaps Kosh's function was the impulse-control part of the mind. WHen he died, the Vorlons lost their impulse control, and went mad.

Also, I've toyed with the notion...well, I've toyed with several notions. If you're curious, I'll talk more about 'em.

Also they both look so different why did they think everyone would be fooled by this?
and why did it work?? oh Kosh you just went through some black paint and anger management classes had a reverse effect? oh that's fine! lol

Fashion. People change their clothes. WHy not alien angels? I mean, who's goign to accuse him of being an imposter.

Also 1000 years since the last war, the shadows were rebuilding, what were the vorlons doing?

Well, they were engineering human telepaths for one thing. Presumably they were doing this with other species as well.

If you win a war you do slow your building of ships but you make damn sure you have enough for the next one, but the vorlons are slow to re-build slower than the shadows?

What makes you think that? The Vorlons are patient. And they WON the last Shadow War. We're repeatedly told that the Shadows have been awakened too early, and are forced to operate before they're really ready.

Perhaps maybe because the shadows are using human beings as ships and vorlons refuse to do that? but why? the vorlons don't seem to like humans much more than the shadows do anyway, lying to genetically modfiying and leaving them be to the ensuing chaos that results from it.

I don't think 'like' or 'dislike' has anything to do with it. The shadows used humans (And others) as the CPU of their ships. The vorlons used humans (And others) as weapons to immobilize said ships.

In terms of philosophy, you've got lords of order versus lords of chaos. While both are detestable in the show, I think the Shadows are the slightly-less-evil of the two in that they really don't care what you do as long as you do something. The vorlons only wanted you to do THEIR thing.
I'd like to see more of kosh more of the vorlons but i don't know how it'd be done.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Ragzus]

Yeah i'd like to hear more of your thoughts, bouncing around ideas of "what if, what might be" is interesting to me.

And my thoughts on the vorlons not rebuilding were if they knew the shadows were coming back, because they purposely didn't wipe them out since they were battling ideals over and over and abiding by their little rules.

But from the shows point of view having an all powerful race whom the bad guys could never touch wouldn't be much of a threat.
And being on more even terms would mean a more fair ruling of "who was right and who was wrong" they could've had a written agreement like the battleship limits before ww2.
Which vorlons were more likely to obey than the shadows were.

But back to the universe point of view, if they had discovered third space around then they would've wanted to rebuild their forces to make sure they could defend themselves veruses this threat.
But that also answers why they may not have had the resources required, perhaps the incident with the third space gate caused a great drain on people/ships it was long ago however?

They're birth rate could've also been a reason.
The mysterious reasoning has always made me wonder.

 

[Springer]

I actually don't think Kosh was SUPPOSED to die. At least not so early and not like that. I think JMS painted himself into a corner, and realized there was no logical way the Shadows WOULDN'T kill Kosh, and it strained credulity that they didn't.. So he did, and blamed it on Sheridan. I think he even admits this in the script:

Sheridan: "I know, I know, if I go to Z'ha'dum I will die."
Kosh: "Yes. Now."

Implying his fate wasn't sealed UNTIL there wasy no rational way NOT to remove Kosh from the story.

Around the time Interludes and Examinations aired, JMS made a post along the lines that Kosh was always intended to die but not originally that early in the series. He described it as the character basically telling him, "It's time." But yeah, the script kind of demands it really. I had a trawl through JMS news but can't find said post, if I can find it I'll link to it later.

I think Sheridan was always intended to go to Z'Ha'Dum alone (although he wasn't really – Kosh was with him, in a way.)

 

[Republibot 3.0]

I actually don't think Kosh was SUPPOSED to die. At least not so early and not like that. I think JMS painted himself into a corner, and realized there was no logical way the Shadows WOULDN'T kill Kosh, and it strained credulity that they didn't.. So he did, and blamed it on Sheridan. I think he even admits this in the script:

Sheridan: "I know, I know, if I go to Z'ha'dum I will die."
Kosh: "Yes. Now."

Implying his fate wasn't sealed UNTIL there wasy no rational way NOT to remove Kosh from the story.

Around the time Interludes and Examinations aired, JMS made a post along the lines that Kosh was always intended to die but not originally that early in the series. He described it as the character basically telling him, "It's time." But yeah, the script kind of demands it really. I had a trawl through JMS news but can't find said post, if I can find it I'll link to it later.

I think Sheridan was always intended to go to Z'Ha'Dum alone (although he wasn't really – Kosh was with him, in a way.)

I remember the quote in question.

I've wondered if Kosh and Lorien were originally the same character. Like Kosh was only pretending to be a Vorlon, or if Kosh had some role he was supposed to fulfil, but couldn't because JMS had to kill him off, so he created Lorien to fulfil that function. I don't place great stock in it, but I've wondered about it.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Yeah i'd like to hear more of your thoughts, bouncing around ideas of "what if, what might be" is interesting to me.

Ok. One theory is that the Vorlons are inherently a big blob-like entity, a gestalt (not a physical blob, mind you). They bud off bits of themselves as needed to do functions away from the gestalt, and these are re-absorbed after the job is done. Kosh was away from the blob for so long that his opinions and thinking began to conspicuously differ from the gestalt as a whole. He started to identify with us, or care for us, or whatever. This put him in dutch with the getalt as a whole.

If this is true, then "We are all Kosh" could be taken to mean that "We are all disconnected aspects fo the Vorlon Consciousness"

There's my not-entirely-unrelated theory that each vorlon had some aspect of the Vorlon Overmind that he controled or regulated or whatever. Kosh's death affected their sanity. In this sense "We are all Kosh" could mean something along the lines of "We are all nodes in one huge mind."

Then there's this one: Lorien was the first one. Lorien was energy based, but took humanoid form when it suited him. The Vorlons did this same trick. Lorien talks about his people achieving immortality and consciousness spontaneously from the beginning, which doesn't make much sense in and of itself, unless we consider that Lorien was some kind of echo of the big bang itself which gradually developed an identity, then decided to replicate himself. His species have all since gone extinct, he says, but he also says that the younger races were guided by him and his.

Shadows and Vorlons were among the first. Vorlons could have been direct creations of the "Lorienites" in which case it could mean something like "We are all children of Lorien" or "Servants of Lorien" or "Worshipers of Lorien" or something like that.

(For this one to work, it makes more sense if we assume Kosh himself was originally intended to fulfil the narrative functions of Lorien before JMS needed to kill him off and hence had to introduce a new character)

It's also possible that Kosh was, himself, "The First One." At least in an early draft. This would explain the Vorlons going nuts when he died, and as they're directily created by him, "We are all Kosh" would make literal sense. (Remember: in the earliest draft of B5, the Vorlons lose. Badly.)

There's also the question of whom Kosh 2 (Gezundheit) is talkign to when he says "We are all Kosh." Who's the "We" he's talking about? Most of Sinclair's role got put on Sheridan. We know that humanity evolves into a Vorlon-like state in a million years. We know there's time travel involved. What if Sinclair (or Sheridan) personally evolves into something like that and travels back in time. What if Sinclair/Sheridan *IS* Kosh, come back in time. What if K2(Gezundheit) is his kid or offspring or energy-based clone or whatever?

What if the "We" refers to the chunk of Kosh in Sherian? (Which is admittedly unlikely as he seems not to know such a thing exists). The idea that the "We" refers to K2 and Sheridan can't be ignored.

So there's my theories. The major ones, anyway.

 

[ranger phil]

Ooh Lots of theories. Firstly I always had the feeling that Lorien almost WAS Sheridan. Sheridan that didnt do the jump so was stuck in purgatory for eternity. Unable to action until another came along and freed him from his prison. (much like in the lost tales with the demon)

Nah maybe not. It's late.

Happy new year one and all.

 

[Ragzus]

Oh!! i like those theories, i'll have a thinks about it later today and get back to you with some more thoughts ^_^
One theory sounds kind of like the founders from DS9 but cooler lol

 

[Springer]

I've wondered if Kosh and Lorien were originally the same character. Like Kosh was only pretending to be a Vorlon, or if Kosh had some role he was supposed to fulfil, but couldn't because JMS had to kill him off, so he created Lorien to fulfil that function. I don't place great stock in it, but I've wondered about it.

Lorien had that throwaway line about Kosh: "I think I met him once, long ago." Kosh undoubtedly knew about Lorien and knew where he was and intended for Sheridan to find him to try and bring an end to the cycle. Kosh must have had some Vorlon forces loyal to him with which to attack the Shadows. Maybe Kosh headed up a rogue group in the Vorlon Empire who realised the constant cycle between chaos and order wasn't the way forward any more, but they didn't make their presence known until Interludes and Examinations? That was maybe another reason why Kosh was reluctant to help Sheridan at first, because it wouldn't only put Kosh in danger but would expose his group?

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Ooh Lots of theories. Firstly I always had the feeling that Lorien almost WAS Sheridan. Sheridan that didnt do the jump so was stuck in purgatory for eternity. Unable to action until another came along and freed him from his prison. (much like in the lost tales with the demon)

Nah maybe not. It's late.

Happy new year one and all.

That's interesting. We both felt that we were looking at multiple versions of the same character (Though not the same ones)

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Lorien had that throwaway line about Kosh: "I think I met him once, long ago." Kosh undoubtedly knew about Lorien and knew where he was and intended for Sheridan to find him to try and bring an end to the cycle. Kosh must have had some Vorlon forces loyal to him with which to attack the Shadows. Maybe Kosh headed up a rogue group in the Vorlon Empire who realised the constant cycle between chaos and order wasn't the way forward any more, but they didn't make their presence known until Interludes and Examinations? That was maybe another reason why Kosh was reluctant to help Sheridan at first, because it wouldn't only put Kosh in danger but would expose his group?

Hm.

Well, Kosh's purpose in coming to B5 was to make sure Sinclair-the-arrow flew when and how and why he was supposed to. Then Sinclair left the station, and Kosh got sidetracked.

Part of his job was evidently to screen messianic types, and in at least 400 years, probably longer, he never found any. Then he came across DeLenn and Sheridan. As DeLenn was tied up in the Sinclair biz, he probably was keeping a perfunctory eye on her, but he probably didn't give a crap about Sheridan.

Then Sheridan - who he wasn't even on his radar as false messiahs go - suddenly turns up and is everything they were looking for, without even looking for him. Their messiah found THEM. They were going about it all wrong.

I think that marks a major shift in Kosh. Up to that point, it was business as usual, but after that he starts showing a lot more interest in things, particularly Sheridan, and he obviously grows to love him. He quite literally does what Sheridan offered to do: "Greater love hath no man than this: that he lay down his life for another."

So I think Kosh accepted the eternal-war-rematch party line until Sheridan gave him a new perspective, and then he began to question the whole thing.

 

[Ragzus]

Thinking back on it now as a story point that makes good sense that lorrian was a kosh replacement but i never really put the pieces together until now.

I would've thought that Kosh with his interest in humans would have been the one to give Jack the ripper his new job, But if you think back he was watching human history perhaps as you say it was his interaction with Sinclar/Sherridan that peeked his already some what curious mind on "younger races" as to why he spent time among the minbari also to learn, and his companion may have been a leash so he didn't reveal himself too openly or step out of line.

Then as he comes to babylon 5 he's lost his watch dog, but perhaps there is a nearby vorlon fleet ready to destroy the station if it happen to fall into shadow hands.
Though each time a vorlon fleet appears it isn't instant, so maybe they come from that pocket in hyperspace.

Deathwalker may had been a plot by the shadows to kick start the war between the younger races. which might explain by the warrior cast were not in the war if they were manipulated by the shadows not to take part and to allow deathwalker to live.

I don't know why the lack of Kosh in season one, maybe it was money issues maybe they weren't ready to intro him yet, But more Kosh would've liven up that season however then Sinclar appears and Kosh is interested and it feels like some magic happened between them which you know the build was good for.
But at the end of season 1 when Sinclar left was the scirpt at the point of replacing him? or were these changes just all made on the fly?


The theory that the vorlons are a hive mind and kosh has a calming effect on the others does seem to be a possibility in the gahtering when he's poisoned and possibly dying they are ready to blow up the entire station to get sinclar for what vengence? they can't be *that* eager to read his mind to see if he is really guilty i mean if they do blow the place up kosh would die and the alliance vs the shadows would be harder to setup without babylon 5.

I still think that while Kosh might be his name it is also a title like Elder giving rise to the "we are all kosh" as i said before we are all your seniors we are all above you/better than you lol whatever meaning kosh has in vorlon.

Because of the third space incident i think the hive mind is less likely with some vorlons being effected and changed to the other side (same goes for humans when it happens again) if they were a hive mind i imagine they'd either have much more resistance to it, or even less and could've all been controlled.

Also the thought behind the door was "to meet god" most hive minds in scifi (though who knows what a real one would be like)
are thinking "we are perfection, we will become perfection" and don't really believe in gods or the like.
Killiks(sp) or Borg or Zerg (and on and on lol)
if anything the shadows are more likely to have a hive mind as they have one objective and only really commiuncate though "joiners" in the form or morden and others.



The vorlons and minbari is another interesting part for the most part since the last war the vorlons hadn't contacted the minbari besides perhaps their leaders like dukat and deelen(sp) was going to replace him.
but they shared tech so the whitestars could be built, but on the other hand weren't open with info like the shadows return until deleen asked.

Also if they had been more or less accustomed to dealing with minbari (who are both somewhat not the norm) how/why did it take so long to deal with sinclar/sherridan?


And my biggest question.
If the vorlons were modifying races for centuries to see them as angels why did that never amount to anything?
Was it just because they were going to use it later knowing the war would repeat and progress to fight with the vorlons verses the shadows had already reached above expectations?


Their "Madness" attributed to the death of Kosh and then of the second vorlon it makes *more* sense if they were a hive mind and connected and lost a part of themselves, or if they were the leaders or spiritual leaders perhaps positions of reverence, But it may have just been poor story telling to get rid of all "first ones" without having to kill them off.


Anyway those are my thoughts from yesterday and today lol

 

[Springer]

Hm.

Well, Kosh's purpose in coming to B5 was to make sure Sinclair-the-arrow flew when and how and why he was supposed to. Then Sinclair left the station, and Kosh got sidetracked.

Part of his job was evidently to screen messianic types, and in at least 400 years, probably longer, he never found any. Then he came across DeLenn and Sheridan. As DeLenn was tied up in the Sinclair biz, he probably was keeping a perfunctory eye on her, but he probably didn't give a crap about Sheridan.

Then Sheridan - who he wasn't even on his radar as false messiahs go - suddenly turns up and is everything they were looking for, without even looking for him. Their messiah found THEM. They were going about it all wrong.

I think that marks a major shift in Kosh. Up to that point, it was business as usual, but after that he starts showing a lot more interest in things, particularly Sheridan, and he obviously grows to love him. He quite literally does what Sheridan offered to do: "Greater love hath no man than this: that he lay down his life for another."

So I think Kosh accepted the eternal-war-rematch party line until Sheridan gave him a new perspective, and then he began to question the whole thing.

I really like that theory. That makes sense if Kosh is just there just to make sure Sinclair becomes Valen – we saw that Kosh was there when B4 travelled into the past. Then Sheridan comes along and is a game-changer. I think Kosh also saw an opportunity in Sheridan – he knew his wife had been on the Icarus, and took advantage of that. Maybe Sheridan didn't necessarily give Kosh a totally new perspective, but he certainly gave him an opportunity.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

I really like that theory. That makes sense if Kosh is just there just to make sure Sinclair becomes Valen – we saw that Kosh was there when B4 travelled into the past. Then Sheridan comes along and is a game-changer. I think Kosh also saw an opportunity in Sheridan – he knew his wife had been on the Icarus, and took advantage of that. Maybe Sheridan didn't necessarily give Kosh a totally new perspective, but he certainly gave him an opportunity.

Thank you!

 

[Ragzus]

I might believe that Kosh was meant to keep sinclar straight and on path to become valen if he had more plot interaction if that was a budget problem or not is unknown to me.

There is a perfect peak where sherridan comes and he does pay more attention but from a watchers point of view it feels more budget guided, Though he has strong feelings towards him to appear to him at his death and tell him he loved him i do kind of wonder where that came from.

Perhaps it was when he started to "teach him about himself" and sherridan went along with his requests where most people would just be "oh screw this" perhaps Kosh felt like Sherridan was becoming like his pet human lol
Or perhaps he had not had anyone who he could "Talk to" (i use that term loosly in this case) for many hundreds of years perhaps and Sherridan was one of the people he could while still being held back by the rest of the vorlons he might not have said many of the things he wanted to but sherridan was *there* willing to listen to him where deleen(sp) only seemed to come to him when her interests were at risk, perhaps under the assumption that he didn't want company?

I do question how many of the interactions between Lyta and Sherridan happened while Kosh was inside or part of him, I wish they had played that hand a little more before he left.

 

[ranger phil]

I always assumed Kosh was a bit of a chicken shit to be honest. He hid in his 'office' and only came out when he really had to. He hid behind the scenes, much like the shadows, influencing the actions of others. Only when the one person Kosh realised could end this war called his bullshit did he intervene, knowing it would cost him his life. How many lives had already been lost in the conflict by then though?

Unless he had to hide for another reason.

Kosh seemed to hate the fact he had to 'reveal' himself as an angelic creature (which he clearly was not) 'because it was necessary' to save Sheridan. Why did he have to save sheridan? Look at it from his point of view. He is a near immortal creature with virtually unlimited power, who can command the respect of all races that believe in angelic deity. Why is it so specific he has to save sheridan? More the question... In who's best interests would it be for Sheridan to survive?

"You have always been here" That is a very specific statement.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

I might believe that Kosh was meant to keep sinclar straight and on path to become valen if he had more plot interaction if that was a budget problem or not is unknown to me.

No budget problems that I'm aware of. It was just a guy in a costume. He walks into a room, he walks out. How much can that cost?

He was just supposed to be aloof and distant in the first season, showing up just to remind us (As do other forces in that season) that there are giants in the playground. His arc hadn't really kicked in yet.

Though he has strong feelings towards him to appear to him at his death and tell him he loved him i do kind of wonder where that came from.

Well, Sheridan was the unexpected messiah. The one who snuck up on Kosh while Kosh was aggressively looking the wrong way. He was the one who could open unexpected doors. Kosh took interest in him, and they grew close.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

I always assumed Kosh was a bit of a chicken shit to be honest. He hid in his 'office' and only came out when he really had to. He hid behind the scenes, much like the shadows, influencing the actions of others. Only when the one person Kosh realised could end this war called his bullshit did he intervene, knowing it would cost him his life. How many lives had already been lost in the conflict by then though?

Unless he had to hide for another reason.

Kosh seemed to hate the fact he had to 'reveal' himself as an angelic creature (which he clearly was not) 'because it was necessary' to save Sheridan. Why did he have to save sheridan? Look at it from his point of view. He is a near immortal creature with virtually unlimited power, who can command the respect of all races that believe in angelic deity. Why is it so specific he has to save sheridan? More the question... In who's best interests would it be for Sheridan to survive?

"You have always been here" That is a very specific statement.

No offence, but I disagree with just about every bit of that statement.

First: Kosh was immeasurabley old. Probably hundreds of thousands of years. He'd lived through hundreds of these Shadow wars. Both sides fought by proxy, manipulating lesser species to do their biddings, only showing themselves when they had to, or when it was in their best interests. So it's entirely fitting that he'd stay in his room most of the time. What? You'd expect the puppetmaster to take the stage and shout "Here I am?"

Second: Sheridan was falling to his death three weeks after Kosh found out the guy was the unexpected messiah, the guy who could change the balance of power. A major asset. And he's just gonna' let him die? Why would he do that?

Thirdly: Sheridan "Calling him on his shit" meant basically telling Kosh (A) to break the million-years-old rules of engagement by fighitng the Shadows directly and (B) in so doing to expose himself directly to reprisals. The Shadows and Vorlons evidently gave each other diplomatic immunity. By that point, Kosh knew it was the right thing to do to get involved, but he also knew he'd die. And he also knew he wouldn't be around to protect Sheridan. Attacking Sheridan in the hall was clearly a case of Kosh being afraid of doing the right thing.

But he did it anyway, knowing it would kill him. Again: "What greater love hath a man than this: that he lay down his life for his brother" Which he did.

Not a bit of chickenshit in there.

 

[ranger phil]

I always assumed Kosh was a bit of a chicken shit to be honest. He hid in his 'office' and only came out when he really had to. He hid behind the scenes, much like the shadows, influencing the actions of others. Only when the one person Kosh realised could end this war called his bullshit did he intervene, knowing it would cost him his life. How many lives had already been lost in the conflict by then though?

Unless he had to hide for another reason.

Kosh seemed to hate the fact he had to 'reveal' himself as an angelic creature (which he clearly was not) 'because it was necessary' to save Sheridan. Why did he have to save sheridan? Look at it from his point of view. He is a near immortal creature with virtually unlimited power, who can command the respect of all races that believe in angelic deity. Why is it so specific he has to save sheridan? More the question... In who's best interests would it be for Sheridan to survive?

"You have always been here" That is a very specific statement.

No offence, but I disagree with just about every bit of that statement.

First: Kosh was immeasurabley old. Probably hundreds of thousands of years. He'd lived through hundreds of these Shadow wars. Both sides fought by proxy, manipulating lesser species to do their biddings, only showing themselves when they had to, or when it was in their best interests. So it's entirely fitting that he'd stay in his room most of the time. What? You'd expect the puppetmaster to take the stage and shout "Here I am?"

Second: Sheridan was falling to his death three weeks after Kosh found out the guy was the unexpected messiah, the guy who could change the balance of power. A major asset. And he's just gonna' let him die? Why would he do that?

Thirdly: Sheridan "Calling him on his shit" meant basically telling Kosh (A) to break the million-years-old rules of engagement by fighitng the Shadows directly and (B) in so doing to expose himself directly to reprisals. The Shadows and Vorlons evidently gave each other diplomatic immunity. By that point, Kosh knew it was the right thing to do to get involved, but he also knew he'd die. And he also knew he wouldn't be around to protect Sheridan. Attacking Sheridan in the hall was clearly a case of Kosh being afraid of doing the right thing.

But he did it anyway, knowing it would kill him. Again: "What greater love hath a man than this: that he lay down his life for his brother" Which he did.

Not a bit of chickenshit in there.

Of Course. For debate.

And yet he still hid away. He could (and perhaps should) have been a hell of a lot more proactive. If not with the council, then at least with Sheridan. At the end he as much hints as much when he's dying. Kosh felt fear. Nowt wrong with that. Nothing at all. He may have been a godlike presence on the station but he was just as much at risk as everyone else.

I can't remember which book it was (one of the technomage trilogy i think) which had that moment from Koshs point of view. The moment of his death. How the shadows killed him. Tore him apart. Ripped him to pieces.

In that one moment he showed courage.

"It's too late for me. I'm sorry for what I did before. I knew what was ahead. I guess .. I guess I was afraid. When you have lived as long as I have, you kind of get used to it"


In fact it kinda mirrors what Lorien tells sheridan on Z'hadum.

"You can't turn away from death simply because you're afraid of what might happen without you. That's not enough! You're not embracing life. You're fleeing death. And so you're caught in between, unable to go forward or backward. Your friends need what you can be when you are no longer afraid, when you know who you are and why you are and what you want, when you are no longer looking for reasons to live, but can simply be."

Finally Kosh knew he had to die.

 

[Republibot 3.0]

Of Course. For debate.

And yet he still hid away. He could (and perhaps should) have been a hell of a lot more proactive. If not with the council, then at least with Sheridan. At the end he as much hints as much when he's dying. Kosh felt fear. Nowt wrong with that. Nothing at all. He may have been a godlike presence on the station but he was just as much at risk as everyone else.

I can't remember which book it was (one of the technomage trilogy i think) which had that moment from Koshs point of view. The moment of his death. How the shadows killed him. Tore him apart. Ripped him to pieces.

In that one moment he showed courage.

"It's too late for me. I'm sorry for what I did before. I knew what was ahead. I guess .. I guess I was afraid. When you have lived as long as I have, you kind of get used to it"


In fact it kinda mirrors what Lorien tells sheridan on Z'hadum.

"You can't turn away from death simply because you're afraid of what might happen without you. That's not enough! You're not embracing life. You're fleeing death. And so you're caught in between, unable to go forward or backward. Your friends need what you can be when you are no longer afraid, when you know who you are and why you are and what you want, when you are no longer looking for reasons to live, but can simply be."

Finally Kosh knew he had to die.

I know the books are supposed to be canon, or varying degrees of canon, but honestly I don't take them terribly seriously. I take 'em more seriously than Trek novels or Star Wars comics, but less seriously than Dr. Who Audioplays, in the grand scheme of things.

If JMS had written them, sure, but as he didn't. As he just gave people a few factoids and then said 'go nuts', and as he complained endlessly about the first batch of books, and has said publicly there are things in the novelization of "In the Beginning" that didn't happen, and because there's an actual BOOK to list the things that are and aren't factual in the novels, and because I don't think he'd hesitate for an instant to chuck ever sentence of all that stuff if it got in the way of some new B5 thing, I just don't place much stock on it.

"Deuterocanonical" at best, as the Catholics say.

Anyway: Kosh had a very specific duty during the first season on B5, which was to keep Sinclair on track for his appointment. Occasionally he'd introduce himself into another situation that threatened the status quo in some way (Immortality, or making sure to keep the station teeps on the leash), but his job was Sinclair. After Sinclair left, that changed.

If he was doing anything, he seems to have been cleaning up dangling threads, of which Delenn was one. Sheridan presented himself, the situation changed.

I don't think Kosh *knew* that he had to die. I think Sheridan made him recognize that he had to take a risk. I think he realized that risk might entail his own death. And when he realized there was no way around it, he laid down his life.

Possibly because he was ashamed of the fact that a puny human would have done it in a heartbeat. For anyone.