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What timeline problem?(spoilers)
- Thread starter GKarsEye
- Start date
hypatia
Regular
Once again, I find myself having to admit that I agree with G'karsEye. (Sorry, I'll try not to make it a habit, GKE.) I think I did hear that some little thing might have not fit in with the original B5 timeline, but I could have sworn that was from “Crusade” and not “Rangers/TLADIS”.
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"The Bible is a book: it is a good book, but is is not the only book" - Inherit the Wind
"I do not believe that the same God who
has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."—Galileo
hypatia@b5fan.b5lr.com
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"The Bible is a book: it is a good book, but is is not the only book" - Inherit the Wind
"I do not believe that the same God who
has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."—Galileo
hypatia@b5fan.b5lr.com
I too am a bit nonplussed. I thought that "Rangers" was to take place a few years after B5 and a few years before "Crusade". Since no specific date was mentioned, that I remember, how can there be a problem? All we really know for certain is that the Rangers had time to implement a change of wardrobe.
Frizzell
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"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
"Good in theory...
Lousy in practice...
It implies that I am expendable. I am many things. I am bright, personable, charismatic and not a bad dancer but expendable? No."
Frizzell
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"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in a confederacy against him."
-Jonathan Swift
"Good in theory...
Lousy in practice...
It implies that I am expendable. I am many things. I am bright, personable, charismatic and not a bad dancer but expendable? No."
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
the only year i've heard mentioned was 2265(?)
i don't know of any problems this may cause b/c this was a somewhat uneventful period if i remember correctly...
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I have no one to envy...
I envy you having me to envy...
"love to stay, can't, have to go, kiss kiss, love love, bye" G'Kar
i don't know of any problems this may cause b/c this was a somewhat uneventful period if i remember correctly...
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I have no one to envy...
I envy you having me to envy...
"love to stay, can't, have to go, kiss kiss, love love, bye" G'Kar
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
I've only seen a few people mention "timeline" problems, and they're all confused about when the movie is supposed to take place. (JMS has said 2265, about 2 1/2 years after "Objects at Rest", but I really think they could have put a title on-screen to say that, as the did in In the Beginning - "2278 Earth Calendar" Would have saved a lot of confusion.)
One great one asked how Sheridan could be mentioned, and how B5 could show up at the end of the movie when everybody knew that Sheridan was beyond the Rim and B5 destroyed. (He even asked if they had rebuilt the station.)
Then there were all the people who asked why there was no metion of the plague or the Drakh.
I guess some people can't handle the concept of related stories being released out of chronological order.
What I have seen more frequently is complaints about continuity, not "time-line", problems. These all boil down to the notion that the Hand is described (by their spy) as more powerful than the Shadows. The fact that a war with the Hand is not mentioned by Delenn in the closing narration of "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars" or by Maggie Eagan's ISN reporter at the beginning of A Call to Arms suggests to them that there is something missing. They say the continuity is screwed up. I say that there isn't going to be a war with the Hand, and that the whole thing is going to be resolved in a much quieter way.
Which only makes sense. If we couldn't physically defeat the Shadows and the Vorlons, but had to think our way out of the problem, it would clearly be impossible for us to defeat the Hand, if they really are as powerful as has been suggested. So we're going to have to do something other than slug it out with them fleet to fleet.
Regards,
Joe
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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
One great one asked how Sheridan could be mentioned, and how B5 could show up at the end of the movie when everybody knew that Sheridan was beyond the Rim and B5 destroyed. (He even asked if they had rebuilt the station.)
Then there were all the people who asked why there was no metion of the plague or the Drakh.
I guess some people can't handle the concept of related stories being released out of chronological order.
What I have seen more frequently is complaints about continuity, not "time-line", problems. These all boil down to the notion that the Hand is described (by their spy) as more powerful than the Shadows. The fact that a war with the Hand is not mentioned by Delenn in the closing narration of "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars" or by Maggie Eagan's ISN reporter at the beginning of A Call to Arms suggests to them that there is something missing. They say the continuity is screwed up. I say that there isn't going to be a war with the Hand, and that the whole thing is going to be resolved in a much quieter way.
Which only makes sense. If we couldn't physically defeat the Shadows and the Vorlons, but had to think our way out of the problem, it would clearly be impossible for us to defeat the Hand, if they really are as powerful as has been suggested. So we're going to have to do something other than slug it out with them fleet to fleet.
Regards,
Joe
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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
One great one asked how Sheridan could be mentioned, and how B5 could show up at the end of the movie when everybody knew that Sheridan was beyond the Rim and B5 destroyed. (He even asked if they had rebuilt the station.)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You have got to be kidding me !!
*shakes head in disbelief*
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
I say that there isn't going to be a war with the Hand, and that the whole thing is going to be resolved in a much quieter way.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree. We also hear nothing in any newscast/future episode about the invasion from Thirdspace. You'd think such an event would get it's 15 minutes on the news and a chapter in history books. Or did things like that happen inbetween every other episode we saw
?
The hand is probably dealt with in a similar way as the invasion from Thirdspace (one time deal, no more invasions possible).
The way into our universe is closed, the hand are forgotten, and we move on to the real theme of the show.
Though something tells me that's too simple for evil JMS ...
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"I walk, i shop, i sneeze. I'll be a fireman when the floods roll back. There's trees in the desert since you moved out ... and i don't sleep on a bed of bones."
One great one asked how Sheridan could be mentioned, and how B5 could show up at the end of the movie when everybody knew that Sheridan was beyond the Rim and B5 destroyed. (He even asked if they had rebuilt the station.)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You have got to be kidding me !!
*shakes head in disbelief*
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>
I say that there isn't going to be a war with the Hand, and that the whole thing is going to be resolved in a much quieter way.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree. We also hear nothing in any newscast/future episode about the invasion from Thirdspace. You'd think such an event would get it's 15 minutes on the news and a chapter in history books. Or did things like that happen inbetween every other episode we saw
The hand is probably dealt with in a similar way as the invasion from Thirdspace (one time deal, no more invasions possible).
The way into our universe is closed, the hand are forgotten, and we move on to the real theme of the show.
Though something tells me that's too simple for evil JMS ...
------------------
"I walk, i shop, i sneeze. I'll be a fireman when the floods roll back. There's trees in the desert since you moved out ... and i don't sleep on a bed of bones."
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>You have got to be kidding me !!
*shakes head in disbelief*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am incapable of making that up.
Here's the link.
Regards,
Joe
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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
*shakes head in disbelief*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am incapable of making that up.
Here's the link.
Regards,
Joe
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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
Ninja_Squirrel
Regular
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> whos sharington? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Understudy to Mac and Bo. We didn't see him in A View From the Gallery, because he was sick during that episode. If he's believed dead, maybe he got eaten up by another Zarg.
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An Old Egyptian Blessing: May God stand between you and harm in all the empty places that you must walk.
Thoughts & prayers to soldiers fighting overseas and to their families.
Understudy to Mac and Bo. We didn't see him in A View From the Gallery, because he was sick during that episode. If he's believed dead, maybe he got eaten up by another Zarg.
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An Old Egyptian Blessing: May God stand between you and harm in all the empty places that you must walk.
Thoughts & prayers to soldiers fighting overseas and to their families.
GKarsEye
Regular
So, let me get this straight: people are complaining because they didn't mention the Hand in future episodes and movies that take place after the Rangers movie/series.
*sigh*
Listen, first of all, they are assuming that the Hand was a huge, major news event, like the Earth Civil War or the Drakh Plague that everyone knew about. The Rangers often work in the underground, doing secret missions, preventing major threats before they become bigger. Most will not become public knowledge. "We walk in the dark places...," not "We are being interviewed by Barbara Walters."
And even if the Hand was some huge piece of news, people just don't go around reciting the past 20 years of history all the time, as some folks are expecting the characters in B5 to. "Hey, John, how are ya? Fine, but that Gulf War sure was a bitch, huh?"
Alls we know about major galactic events after watching B5 and Crusade about what happened after season 5 is:
- Centauri are controlled by Drakh who are eventually ousted.
- Telepath War, Psi-Corps is gone, but some policies remain.
- Drakh War of some kind. Alliance wins.
- Alliance manages to hold together and become successful.
There is absolutely no coninuity problem. There must have been hundreds of problems that came up in all this time. This Hand dealy is just one of them.
So, now that we've realised there are no timeline or coninuity problems, can we please stop refering to them as if there are? Even statements like, "I liked the Rangers movie despite the errors in timeline" or "Continuity problems aside..." will royally piss me off from now on- because there simply are no such issues!
Can we mention this on the homepage or the FAQ of this site, because this is going to be one of those things that's going to be spread around the 'net and people will accept as fact (as many already are)- all because a couple of people got it wrong and have a modem.
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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
*sigh*
Listen, first of all, they are assuming that the Hand was a huge, major news event, like the Earth Civil War or the Drakh Plague that everyone knew about. The Rangers often work in the underground, doing secret missions, preventing major threats before they become bigger. Most will not become public knowledge. "We walk in the dark places...," not "We are being interviewed by Barbara Walters."
And even if the Hand was some huge piece of news, people just don't go around reciting the past 20 years of history all the time, as some folks are expecting the characters in B5 to. "Hey, John, how are ya? Fine, but that Gulf War sure was a bitch, huh?"
Alls we know about major galactic events after watching B5 and Crusade about what happened after season 5 is:
- Centauri are controlled by Drakh who are eventually ousted.
- Telepath War, Psi-Corps is gone, but some policies remain.
- Drakh War of some kind. Alliance wins.
- Alliance manages to hold together and become successful.
There is absolutely no coninuity problem. There must have been hundreds of problems that came up in all this time. This Hand dealy is just one of them.
So, now that we've realised there are no timeline or coninuity problems, can we please stop refering to them as if there are? Even statements like, "I liked the Rangers movie despite the errors in timeline" or "Continuity problems aside..." will royally piss me off from now on- because there simply are no such issues!
Can we mention this on the homepage or the FAQ of this site, because this is going to be one of those things that's going to be spread around the 'net and people will accept as fact (as many already are)- all because a couple of people got it wrong and have a modem.
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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
Leto II
Regular
Re: the timeline placement issue...
JMS mentioned that the film is set in the year 2264, which seems to place it, at first glance, directly following the Telepath War...and this is later confirmed near the end of the movie when G'Kar talks about Lyta and her death (well actually, he says, "She is gone, now," but I'm assuming it fits in with what we know from the backstory given in J. Gregory Keyes' novels and so forth).
An interesting question, here: precisely how long following the war is the movie set, and might the mission against the raiders as the film opens somehow be related to its end, a mopping-up mission, perhaps?
Also, it's interesting to note that G'Kar is on Minbar at this particular time, and in conversations with the Grey Council...something to do with diplomatic functions following the war? Not to mention his consultations there with President Sheridan at the time. He didn't seem to be the type of person to be right in the political "thick" of things after the Shadow War, and especially not since he spurned complete leadership of Narn as a messiah-figure, so it's interesting to speculate as to why JMS saw fit to have him now working as a diplomat of sorts around there.
Which is very interesting, as far as his character development goes.
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[This message has been edited by Leto II (edited January 24, 2002).]
JMS mentioned that the film is set in the year 2264, which seems to place it, at first glance, directly following the Telepath War...and this is later confirmed near the end of the movie when G'Kar talks about Lyta and her death (well actually, he says, "She is gone, now," but I'm assuming it fits in with what we know from the backstory given in J. Gregory Keyes' novels and so forth).
An interesting question, here: precisely how long following the war is the movie set, and might the mission against the raiders as the film opens somehow be related to its end, a mopping-up mission, perhaps?
Also, it's interesting to note that G'Kar is on Minbar at this particular time, and in conversations with the Grey Council...something to do with diplomatic functions following the war? Not to mention his consultations there with President Sheridan at the time. He didn't seem to be the type of person to be right in the political "thick" of things after the Shadow War, and especially not since he spurned complete leadership of Narn as a messiah-figure, so it's interesting to speculate as to why JMS saw fit to have him now working as a diplomat of sorts around there.
Which is very interesting, as far as his character development goes.
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[This message has been edited by Leto II (edited January 24, 2002).]
coldsoup753
Regular
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Leto II:
Also, it's interesting to note that G'Kar is on Minbar at this particular time, and in conversations with the Grey Council...something to do with diplomatic functions following the war? [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can solve your problem, that's not the Grey Council. It's a council that heads the Ranger but looks exactly like the Grey Council (or so I'm told).
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Faith Manages
Also, it's interesting to note that G'Kar is on Minbar at this particular time, and in conversations with the Grey Council...something to do with diplomatic functions following the war? [/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can solve your problem, that's not the Grey Council. It's a council that heads the Ranger but looks exactly like the Grey Council (or so I'm told).
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Faith Manages
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
This seems to be a detail which many people overlooked:
G'Kar does not talk to the Grey Council, which would mean direct involvement in Minbari politics. Instead he presents his views to the Ranger Council, suggesting closer involvement with Rangers.
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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn
G'Kar does not talk to the Grey Council, which would mean direct involvement in Minbari politics. Instead he presents his views to the Ranger Council, suggesting closer involvement with Rangers.
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"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn
hypatia
Regular
I have read some folks commenting that G'kar's placement in this story makes no sense. (And that he's referred to as Citizen G'kar, not Ambassador G'kar.)
Couldn’t he be there as an observer for the Alliance?
------------------
"The Bible is a book: it is a good book, but is is not the only book" - Inherit the Wind
"I do not believe that the same God who
has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."—Galileo
hypatia@b5fan.b5lr.com
Couldn’t he be there as an observer for the Alliance?
------------------
"The Bible is a book: it is a good book, but is is not the only book" - Inherit the Wind
"I do not believe that the same God who
has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."—Galileo
hypatia@b5fan.b5lr.com
GKarsEye
Regular
I still don't see a problem. G'Kar is back from his space adventures with Lyta. He has not held an official political position with Narn since season 2 of Babylon 5, when the Centauri won the war and G'Kar got sanctuary on B5. At the time of Rangers, he's working for the Alliance, which is also what he is doing in the Centauri novel trilogy.
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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
hypatia
Regular
GkarsEye, we simply MUST STOP agreeing like this!
------------------
"The Bible is a book: it is a good book, but is is not the only book" - Inherit the Wind
"I do not believe that the same God who
has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."—Galileo
hypatia@b5fan.b5lr.com
------------------
"The Bible is a book: it is a good book, but is is not the only book" - Inherit the Wind
"I do not believe that the same God who
has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."—Galileo
hypatia@b5fan.b5lr.com
Kribu
Administrator
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GKarsEye:
He has not held an official political position with Narn since season 2 of Babylon 5, when the Centauri won the war and G'Kar got sanctuary on B5.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Didn't he get back his job as an ambassador after his return from imprisonment (after the end of Shadow war) in Season 4?
I sort of remember him attending the meetings etc again... and he represented Narn when Centauri was accused of the attacks on Alliance ships in S5; plus he only appointed Ta'Lon to his place when he finally left B5.
But at the time of the Rangers, he is probably a free agent, Sheridan's friend and right hand man in intergalactic matters - with his vast amounts of experience and knowledge, he's perfect for any important odd jobs that the ISA needs doing. He's obviously not interested in returning to Narn, so he's got to keep busy some other way.
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"Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't live anywhere else." - G'Kar, B5: Rangers
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com
He has not held an official political position with Narn since season 2 of Babylon 5, when the Centauri won the war and G'Kar got sanctuary on B5.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Didn't he get back his job as an ambassador after his return from imprisonment (after the end of Shadow war) in Season 4?
I sort of remember him attending the meetings etc again... and he represented Narn when Centauri was accused of the attacks on Alliance ships in S5; plus he only appointed Ta'Lon to his place when he finally left B5.
But at the time of the Rangers, he is probably a free agent, Sheridan's friend and right hand man in intergalactic matters - with his vast amounts of experience and knowledge, he's perfect for any important odd jobs that the ISA needs doing. He's obviously not interested in returning to Narn, so he's got to keep busy some other way.
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"Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't live anywhere else." - G'Kar, B5: Rangers
Kribu's Lounge | kribu@ranger.b5lr.com
GKarsEye
Regular
Hmm, you may be right Kribu. I don't remember for certain if he had the official title of ambassador back. But if he did, he must have given it up when he flew off with Lyta.
hypatia, if you want to go back to fighting with me, check out the thread in the Off-Topic forum where sassy and I embark in yet another round of Gender Wars. You're bound to find something offensive in there.
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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
[This message has been edited by GKarsEye (edited January 24, 2002).]
hypatia, if you want to go back to fighting with me, check out the thread in the Off-Topic forum where sassy and I embark in yet another round of Gender Wars. You're bound to find something offensive in there.
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"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."
[This message has been edited by GKarsEye (edited January 24, 2002).]
Joseph DeMartino
Moderator
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>JMS mentioned that the film is set in the year 2264...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, he said 2265 (and I still wish they'd've put that on the screen and avoided much tedious argument.) He also said that the Teep War starts in 2264 (when Lyta returns from exile, as per her conversation with Garibaldi, "Objects in Motion.") It ends in 2265.
And, you're right, we don't know how long the war lasted, or how recently it ended as the film opens. (I once posted a note on usenet saying that for all we know the Teep War starts on December 31st 2264 and ends on January 1st 2265. JMS replied
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>See, you know what's the most fun for me in all this?
That people can actually have enough information to be able to discuss a sequence of events two hundred years in the future, *to within a few weeks one way or another* in a fictional universe.
That's just boss....
jms<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Regards,
Joe
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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
Actually, he said 2265 (and I still wish they'd've put that on the screen and avoided much tedious argument.) He also said that the Teep War starts in 2264 (when Lyta returns from exile, as per her conversation with Garibaldi, "Objects in Motion.") It ends in 2265.
And, you're right, we don't know how long the war lasted, or how recently it ended as the film opens. (I once posted a note on usenet saying that for all we know the Teep War starts on December 31st 2264 and ends on January 1st 2265. JMS replied
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>See, you know what's the most fun for me in all this?
That people can actually have enough information to be able to discuss a sequence of events two hundred years in the future, *to within a few weeks one way or another* in a fictional universe.
That's just boss....
jms<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Regards,
Joe
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Joseph DeMartino
Sigh Corps
Pat Tallman Division
joseph-demartino@att.net
Lyta
Moderator
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph DeMartino:
[BActually, he said 2265 (and I still wish they'd've put that on the screen and avoided much tedious argument.) He also said that the Teep War starts in 2264 (when Lyta returns from exile, as per her conversation with Garibaldi, "Objects in Motion.") It ends in 2265.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am curious as to when/where JMS stated that the Rangers telemovie was set in 2265? I suspect that the -series- would be set in 2265 but that is just a guess. I have tried searching came up with nothing other than the quote you stated above. I agree that the year the movie took place in should have been made more obvious in the movie. It would clarify matters.
Still, the program description on the TiVo said, "In 2264 a military group consisting of humans and aliens tries to enforce intergalactic peace." and Douglas Netter said, "The new Babylon 5 movie takes place in 2264 after the wars are over and a new age of space exploration has begun." Is there reason to doubt the accuracy of these two sources?
The only place where I saw JMS talk about timeline issues was on 6.10.98 when he said:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> The fifth season ends in 2262.
The telepath war: 2264/5.
Crusade: 2267.
jms <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
When you write a date like 2264/5, I take it to mean either date and not from 2264 to 2265. Could be an interpretation issue but even if that is the case, I also think it is -possible- that JMS adjusted the dates after having a chance to think about it for almost 4 years now.
I am sorry to keep hashing out this subject, but I have yet to be convinced otherwise (and I have asked people to do so). Personally, I think that no one can possibly know what exactly happens in the B5 universe except JMS (and even -he- says misspeaks at times).
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Monica Hübinette | Abyss : B5 <- New & Improved!
Pouch-sucking spawn of a bladder fish! Son of a fitch piece of smelt! Tok-swallowing fenbarger! Thrak it! --Na'Feel swearing in B5LR
[BActually, he said 2265 (and I still wish they'd've put that on the screen and avoided much tedious argument.) He also said that the Teep War starts in 2264 (when Lyta returns from exile, as per her conversation with Garibaldi, "Objects in Motion.") It ends in 2265.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am curious as to when/where JMS stated that the Rangers telemovie was set in 2265? I suspect that the -series- would be set in 2265 but that is just a guess. I have tried searching came up with nothing other than the quote you stated above. I agree that the year the movie took place in should have been made more obvious in the movie. It would clarify matters.
Still, the program description on the TiVo said, "In 2264 a military group consisting of humans and aliens tries to enforce intergalactic peace." and Douglas Netter said, "The new Babylon 5 movie takes place in 2264 after the wars are over and a new age of space exploration has begun." Is there reason to doubt the accuracy of these two sources?
The only place where I saw JMS talk about timeline issues was on 6.10.98 when he said:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> The fifth season ends in 2262.
The telepath war: 2264/5.
Crusade: 2267.
jms <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
When you write a date like 2264/5, I take it to mean either date and not from 2264 to 2265. Could be an interpretation issue but even if that is the case, I also think it is -possible- that JMS adjusted the dates after having a chance to think about it for almost 4 years now.
I am sorry to keep hashing out this subject, but I have yet to be convinced otherwise (and I have asked people to do so). Personally, I think that no one can possibly know what exactly happens in the B5 universe except JMS (and even -he- says misspeaks at times).
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Monica Hübinette | Abyss : B5 <- New & Improved!
Pouch-sucking spawn of a bladder fish! Son of a fitch piece of smelt! Tok-swallowing fenbarger! Thrak it! --Na'Feel swearing in B5LR
