What were the "worst" B-5 Episodes?

[Chilli]

Re: What were the \"worst\" B-5 Episodes?

One scene I've always found extremely painful is Jason Ironheart's god-becoming in Mind War. I don't know what it is, but a whole lot of things that bugged me came together there. Ironheart's voice, which I found highly annoying .. horrible music .. and some visuals that were just SO painfully clichee ...

... I'm probably alone on this one

 

[Galahad]

Re: What were the \"worst\" B-5 Episodes?

I actually liked the "Zog" scene.

 

[KoshN]

Re: What were the \"worst\" B-5 Episodes?

One scene I've always found extremely painful is Jason Ironheart's god-becoming in Mind War. I don't know what it is, but a whole lot of things that bugged me came together there. Ironheart's voice, which I found highly annoying .. horrible music .. and some visuals that were just SO painfully clichee ...

... I'm probably alone on this one

That does it. You're the new Simon Cowell of the group.

 

[KoshN]

Re: What were the \"worst\" B-5 Episodes?

I actually liked the "Zog" scene.

"Zog" as a non-B5 reference?

Zog, as in Walkers of Sigma 957 Zog? ...or Zarg, as in "Grey 17 is Missing" Zarg?

That last one I can see being in this thread.

 

[Galahad]

Re: What were the \"worst\" B-5 Episodes?

Zog as in Walkers.... it just tickled me. I'm sure somebody said it wrecked the episode.

Not the Zarg... that was pretty irredeemable. Even though it seemingly re-used the same exoskeleton body costume as the Ikaaran protector from Infection... it still somehow managed to look a lot worse.... and considering it was the "deadliest" predator in the known universe, it failed to give any real credible sense of threat or danger. Now that really WAS a power ranger monster.

 

[KoshN]

Re: What were the \"worst\" B-5 Episodes?

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the War Prayer. There's not many episodes of B5 that I would label 'bad', but that is one of them. The bad guys have stealth camouflage but forget to use it when they need it the most at the end. And the story of the old flame coming back is so cliched and obvious. The Centauri plotline was a bit lame too, though Londo is always good value.

It did have the "My shoes are too tight, but it doesn't matter because I have forgotten how to dance." line, though. That scene, with Londo & Vir in the garden, was pretty good.

I don't mind Infection, sure its generic and not terribly imaginative and could easily be a Star Trek episode, but B5 did it much better than Star Trek could.

And it has David McCallum.

I can even enjoy Grey 17 is Missing - the first half of the episode is fun, the Neroon/Marcus fight is great, its only the clumsy Zarg and the method by which Garibaldi kills it that are really bad.

True. They did a better monster in "The Long Dark."

As for worst scenes, well, anything with Byron in,...

That's pretty much a given.

...the zog scene in Voices of Authority (which totally spoiled an otherwise fine episode in my opinion),

The one with Susan and Marcus? "Zog yes? Zog no?" Marcus, the bucket, and the Vorlon god Boojii? No that was cute/funny.

... and the 'lovebat' or whatever it was called from River of Souls.

Love Bat: "I'm an idiot. I'm a loser. No one likes me. My mommy dresses me funny."
No, that was definitely funny, if only for the lawyer's double-take at the end.

 

[Springer]

Re: What were the \"worst\" B-5 Episodes?

The reason why I didn't like the zog scene in Voices of Authority, aside from the fact that it is not very subtle, is that JMS is always going on about bringing wonder and awe back into science fiction, and there can be nothing more wondrous than the First Ones, and the first time we really meet one (not including Kosh) what do we get? Zog. It was just inappropriate, I thought. Rather than making B5 look intelligent, it made it look stupid.

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: What were the \"worst\" B-5 Episodes?

The sex scene was pretty bad, but nothing makes me wince more than N'Grath. And so my vote for the worst scene ever is when the soul hunter went to N'Grath to hire a guide/bodyguard. Here you have a guy that sounds like the Frankenstein monster talking to a giant praying mantis, resulting in the emergence of a pig-monster that looks like it battled the original Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. Fantastic.

Had that been my first exposure to B5, I'd have never continued watching and spent all that free time I had chasing whores or experimenting with halucaginecs.

I think you are getting two scenes mixed up. The Soul Hunter goes to N'Grath (who I'm not fond of either) to get complete access... tricky... requires level 5 security clearance... expensive.

It is G'Kar who goes to him for the bodyguard... and what an excellent business transaction that turned out to be.... might as well have hired a bad guy from power rangers.

Ah, right, my bad- G'Kar hires the pig-monster to protect him from the hired assassin, an otherwise fun episode.

Still, the point is that N'Grath is retarded.

 

[AnlaShokGrey]

Re: What were the \"worst\" B-5 Episodes?

The teddy bear story, short form:

JMS's Teddy Bear Story

 

[Galahad]

Re: What were the \"worst\" B-5 Episodes?

The sex scene was pretty bad, but nothing makes me wince more than N'Grath. And so my vote for the worst scene ever is when the soul hunter went to N'Grath to hire a guide/bodyguard. Here you have a guy that sounds like the Frankenstein monster talking to a giant praying mantis, resulting in the emergence of a pig-monster that looks like it battled the original Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. Fantastic.

Had that been my first exposure to B5, I'd have never continued watching and spent all that free time I had chasing whores or experimenting with halucaginecs.

I think you are getting two scenes mixed up. The Soul Hunter goes to N'Grath (who I'm not fond of either) to get complete access... tricky... requires level 5 security clearance... expensive.

It is G'Kar who goes to him for the bodyguard... and what an excellent business transaction that turned out to be.... might as well have hired a bad guy from power rangers.

Ah, right, my bad- G'Kar hires the pig-monster to protect him from the hired assassin, an otherwise fun episode.

Still, the point is that N'Grath is retarded.

Yes I really enjoyed hearing that he'd "gone down" in Learning Curve. Maybe his wife ate him after an amorous night.

 

[AnlaShokGrey]

Re: What were the \"worst\" B-5 Episodes?

One scene I've always found extremely painful is Jason Ironheart's god-becoming in Mind War.

Chill, I have to agree. I think that the problem was in how it was rendered. I think a little more 2001: A Space Odyssey and a little less Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (I mean the actual Guide entries, the line drawings), and it might have worked.

And Galahad, I love the "it is missing...its...attributes!" scene with Londo, too.

I'm about to run the entire series for the ninth time, having taken a break of more than a year. It'll be interesting to jump into some of these discussions with the material much fresher in my mind, for awhile.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Re: What were the \"worst\" B-5 Episodes?

Yes I really enjoyed hearing that he'd "gone down" in Learning Curve. Maybe his wife ate him after an amorous night.

Wouldn't that make her the one who had "gone down"?

Ah, right, my bad- G'Kar hires the pig-monster to protect him from the hired assassin, an otherwise fun episode.

Apparently N'Grath used the same temp agency as Jabba the Hutt.

Joe

 

[GKarsEye]

Re: What were the \"worst\" B-5 Episodes?

Yeah I got no love for Ironheart also, with his forced-perfect announciation and annoyingly soft voice. He sounds like an English teacher.

 

[Galahad]

Re: What were the \"worst\" B-5 Episodes?

More like an art critic or winetaster if you ask me. They usually reside in their own colons too!

 

[PillowRock]

Re: What were the \"worst\" B-5 Episodes?

...the zog scene in Voices of Authority (which totally spoiled an otherwise fine episode in my opinion),

The one with Susan and Marcus? "Zog yes? Zog no?" Marcus, the bucket, and the Vorlon god Boojii? No that was cute/funny.

Not to mention: "Who knew they were French?" ....... which always cracked me up.

The reason why I didn't like the zog scene in Voices of Authority, aside from the fact that it is not very subtle, is that JMS is always going on about bringing wonder and awe back into science fiction, and there can be nothing more wondrous than the First Ones, and the first time we really meet one (not including Kosh) what do we get? Zog. It was just inappropriate, I thought. Rather than making B5 look intelligent, it made it look stupid.

Well, then they needed to have somebody other Susan and Marcus go to find them.

Those two were always so given to sarcasm and side comments ..... and frustration when they couldn't understand something right away; and they were not going to understand First Ones right away ....... that any other reaction from those two characters would have been entirely out of character.

I liked that JMS kept the characters consistent.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Re: What were the \"worst\" B-5 Episodes?

Well, then they needed to have somebody other Susan and Marcus go to find them.

Also what did anyone expect from an encounter with the kind of First One who (unlike the Vorlons and the Shadows) is not accustomed to dealing with these barely-above-the-level-of-an-ant Younger Races? The whole problem with the First Ones as dramatic entities is that they (especialy the aloof ones) have so little in common with us and are so hard for us to understand. That's why I can't imagine anything more deadly dull than a depiction of the Shadow Wars of millions of years ago or their Journey Beyond the Rim. Lorien, the Shadows and the Vorlons all had created personas that could interact on our level. Most of the other First Ones didn't because they had no need of such. It was diffcult for them to communicate with any Human at all. Depicting this via Zog was a way of giving us the "sense of Wonder" of SF, as much as the Walkers were.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Springer]

Re: What were the \"worst\" B-5 Episodes?

Well, then they needed to have somebody other Susan and Marcus go to find them.

Also what did anyone expect from an encounter with the kind of First One who (unlike the Vorlons and the Shadows) is not accustomed to dealing with these barely-above-the-level-of-an-ant Younger Races? The whole problem with the First Ones as dramatic entities is that they (especialy the aloof ones) have so little in common with us and are so hard for us to understand. That's why I can't imagine anything more deadly dull than a depiction of the Shadow Wars of millions of years ago or their Journey Beyond the Rim. Lorien, the Shadows and the Vorlons all had created personas that could interact on our level. Most of the other First Ones didn't because they had no need of such. It was diffcult for them to communicate with any Human at all. Depicting this via Zog was a way of giving us the "sense of Wonder" of SF, as much as the Walkers were.

Regards,

Joe

To me, a sense of wonder is G'Kar picking up an ant in Mind War and imagining it saying, 'what was that?'. A sense of wonder is seeing the evolved human at the end of Deconstruction of Falling Stars. A sense of wonder is Sheridan going to Z'Ha'Dum and flinging himself off a cliff into the unknown (ok, there was more than just a sense of wonder to that).

It wasn't Marcus and Ivanova's reaction to 'zog' that bothered me - it was the fact that the JMS wrote 'zog' into it in the first place. It was an attempt at a joke. To me, wonder comes from looking face-to-face with the unknown and attempting to understand it, and growing by the process and understanding ourselves better. Deconstruction of Falling Stars showed that process took one million years and showed it beautifully. B5, on the whole, showed a sense of wonder beautifully. But 'zog' did not, in my opinion.

 

[PillowRock]

Re: What were the \"worst\" B-5 Episodes?

One could also argue that it is only Susan and Marcus' reactions that makes "Zog" a joke.

If they stand there stunned and trying to think through what "Zog" might refer to or mean while the Walkers leave ...... then "Zog" becomes the indecpherable and uncomprehendable transmission of a species millions of years ahead of us.

 

[Recoil]

Re: What were the \"worst\" B-5 Episodes?

I think you all are making too big a deal about that scene.

Lorien told everyone that the First Ones (the Watchers especially) hadn't had contact with any other species than their own in millions of years, and that they were arrogant. I took the whole scene to mean that after Susan goaded them into fighting on their side, they replied "Zog" and left out of anger and being super-beings, they are probably beings of few words and get right to the point. I always took "Zog" to mean "Yes" and they said it with as much disgust as contempt.

I dont think it took wonder out of the whole thing. Us puny humans were dragging them into a fight they didn't want to participate in, and hadn't in thousands of years. Doesnt surprise me they wouldnt be all smiles.

But I never took the scene as a joke. I thought it was right in context.

 

[Chilli]

Re: What were the \"worst\" B-5 Episodes?

I always saw Zog as "yes" .. just that the walkers were too annoyed, pissed and arrogant to step down to "ant level" and translate for them. I found the scene funny, but I never saw it as a joke per se.

I loved the Walkers - both in Mind War and in Voices of Authority.