What's in a Wing

[QMCO5]

What\'s in a Wing

Being in the military I'm very interested in JMS's use of military customs and terminology. I was watching "Believers" and Ivanova takes out a "wing" to escort an Earth ship to B5. There was only one other starfury besides herself. In the first episode "Midnight on the Firing Line" Sinclair takes out "Delta flight" consisting of 9 starfuries, including himself. In "Survivors" the Earth President presents B5 with a new "wing," Zeta wing, which is shown to be 7 starfuries. In the modern Air Force or Navy a "wing" is a large organization and certainly has more than two or seven aircraft. Of course, JMS didn't write "Believers" or "Survivors" so he could probably blame the lack of accuracy on those writers.

QMCO5

 

[KoshFan]

Re: What\'s in a Wing

Y'know, I've been wondering that myself.

I think the term wing applies to a group, but the actual number of people and ships going out varies from situation to situation. Some are in the shop, etc. Of course, that doesn't explain Zeta Wing only having seven on arrival.

IIRC, however, when Zeta Wing arrives it's just the fighters. Can we believe that they loaded all their clothes and personal belongings into their StarFuries? I expect a ship with their gear arrived seperately, and perhaps they detatched one or two fighters to escort it in. Or maybe a few got told off to help escort EarthForce One, although EarthForce One seems to have its own permanent StarFuries.

I think that above all, the Babylon 5 fighter groups have flexibility, and are thus not bound to guidelines. You need a fighter escort? It might be three, or it might be seven, depending on the situation and how many fighters are available.

 

[Sigma]

Re: What\'s in a Wing

Maybe a little off-topic, but can QMCO5 or anyone else who know military answer this...

what is the definision (sp?) of "battle group"? I'm a little interested in modern military technology but havent figured out what it meaned?

 

[RW7427]

Re: What\'s in a Wing

It's probably just a generic term that could cover any number of ships that you want it to be or however many are being used without actually having to state how many there are.

 

[anlashok1]

Re: What\'s in a Wing

A 'battle group' is a Naval term meaning a group of ships composed of an aircraft carrier at its center and a number of support ships that provide a defensive shield. These generally include crusiers, destroyers, frigates, one or two submarines, and supply ships. I hope this info helps.

 

[QMCO5]

Re: What\'s in a Wing

Actually, the first episode had the term right. A "flight" is a group of four or more aircraft and is the most appropriate term for the number of starfuries based on B5. A "wing" is the largest organization involving aircraft found in the military services and includes subordinate elements handling administration, logistics, maintenance and transportation. Size-wise a "wing" is larger than a squadron or a group. For some reason the term "flight" was abandoned in favor of "wing" on B5, probably because it just sounded better and more military for an audience unfamiliar with military organization. Of course, one could assume the use of "wing" is applicable if you allow that the entire wing is not based on B5 and they are portions of air wings that have their HQ back on Earth.

If you're interested in definitions for military terms you can go to: http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/doddict/

QMCO5

 

[KoshFan]

Re: What\'s in a Wing

Which would have made the secession of B5 even harder than it already was.

Of course, perhaps the term "wing" was something the command staff at B5 came up with for their own convenience. We have Alpha, Beta, and Zeta Wings that I recall. This terminology has to refer to fighters at B5, because there simpy aren't enough Greek letters to cover all the fighter groups in EarthForce.

In the Babylon 5 Security Manual (which is not always trustworthy, I'll admit) the wings are given squadron numbers, implying that the wing names were something the B5 command staff made up.

 

[FunkyMikeMoses]

Re: What\'s in a Wing

Of course, perhaps the term "wing" was something the command staff at B5 came up with for their own convenience. We have Alpha, Beta, and Zeta Wings that I recall. This terminology has to refer to fighters at B5, because there simpy aren't enough Greek letters to cover all the fighter groups in EarthForce.

unlikely. The use of greek letters could work throughout Earthforce. Alpha, Beta and Zeta wings in this case are those wings assigned to b5.
So if identifying themselves to other earth ships the id could be: b5-zeta
in the same way the Damocles (not going to try and spell aggame...aga..sod it) could have the fighter ID: Dam-zeta

Once the root assignment is made then the greek letters can be easily shared.

Or something like that

FMM

 

[KoshFan]

Re: What\'s in a Wing

So if identifying themselves to other earth ships the id could be: b5-zeta
in the same way the Damocles (not going to try and spell aggame...aga..sod it) could have the fighter ID: Dam-zeta

Once the root assignment is made then the greek letters can be easily shared.

That's basically what I meant, but seeing what I actually wrote I can see how it was confusing. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[HeinleinFan]

Re: What\'s in a Wing

Having spent a number of years in the military, I found that one of the big things I had to do in order to enjoy B5 was to suspend my credulity regarding military terminology, rank structure, etc.

Hollywood just never does get it right. Ever.

Every time someone would address Ivanova as *Lieutenant Commander,* I cringed. When speaking to someone with the rank of Lt. Commander, one would address him/her simply as *Commander.* But, I nitpick.

 

[FunkyMikeMoses]

Re: What\'s in a Wing

Having spent a number of years in the military, I found that one of the big things I had to do in order to enjoy B5 was to suspend my credulity regarding military terminology, rank structure, etc.

Then again, it is set 200 odd years in the future, who knows how much it's changed.
I think JMS said it was a much more formal time too.

then again, I get the joy of being totally ignorant about the military structure and protocol

FMM

 

[FunkyMikeMoses]

Re: What\'s in a Wing

That's basically what I meant, but seeing what I actually wrote I can see how it was confusing. Thanks for the clarification.

Just re-read your post and it's a pebcak* at my end. Really shouldn't do this while working at the same time

FMM

*Problem Exists Between Chair And Keyboard

 

[KoshFan]

Re: What\'s in a Wing

Every time someone would address Ivanova as *Lieutenant Commander,* I cringed. When speaking to someone with the rank of Lt. Commander, one would address him/her simply as *Commander.*

Now, most of the time Ivanova was a Lt. Commander, Sinclair was on station. Would correct protocol still be to address them both as commander, which might lead to confusion?

Although when it came to rank, I was always uncertain where majors stood in the hierarchy on B5. I watched Babylon Squared again lately, and I wondered where Major Krantz stood in relationship to Sinclair. And then later on, when Major Ryan arrives aboard the Alexander in Severed Dreams -- was he senior to Sheridan? Because it seemed like Sheridan sort of took over leading the opposition to Clark after Hague died.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Re: What\'s in a Wing

It is about time the military abolished giving different ranks the same title. A Lieutenant Commander is the equivalent rank to an army Major. Below General/Admiral there is no need for officer ranks to contain 2 words, inventing a few new words is not that hard.

Also the two rank of captain should be abolished and the title reserved for the Commanding Officer of a ship (or base).

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Re: What\'s in a Wing

Although when it came to rank, I was always uncertain where majors stood in the hierarchy on B5. I watched Babylon Squared again lately, and I wondered where Major Krantz stood in relationship to Sinclair. And then later on, when Major Ryan arrives aboard the Alexander in Severed Dreams -- was he senior to Sheridan? Because it seemed like Sheridan sort of took over leading the opposition to Clark after Hague died.

Major Ryan should have been a Colonel or Brigadier. They just gave the character a higher rank than Captain, without realising that army and navy Captains are very different ranks.

 

[DaRkEnEdStAr]

Re: What\'s in a Wing

i think when we are in a proffesion , and it is shown on tv (in this case a drama/scfi series ) we allways like to nitpick maybe because it gives us "our little say " and lets us shine for the moment .

 

[HeinleinFan]

Re: What\'s in a Wing

KF wrote: *Now, most of the time Ivanova was a Lt. Commander, Sinclair was on station. Would correct protocol still be to address them both as commander, which might lead to confusion?*

In the real world, *correct* protocol dictates that both would be addressed verbally as *commander.* Any potential confusion IRL would be removed because a Lt Commander's rank insignia is a gold leaf, while a (full) Commander's insignia is a silver leaf.

Sheridan's rank insignia (on each shoulder) was that of an Army/Air Force *Captain.* This would have placed him *below* Ivanova in the chain of command. I always assumed that Sheridan's shoulder insignia should have been a *naval* Captain's, or a silver eagle.

It's JMS's world, and he's entitled to populate it as he sees fit. IMHO, his world could have used a military technical advisor. (Hell, he used NASA specialists to vet his science ideas. Why not at least ask his elderly veteran uncle about the difference in rank structure between navies and armies.

)

Again, I admit, I nitpick.

 

[LightNZ]

Re: What\'s in a Wing

if i ever make my own sci-fi series, i'll give you are call

 

[A_M_Swallow]

Re: What\'s in a Wing

There is an even easier solution - invent your own ranks.

The other thing to remember is that the wardrobe girls have never been in the military so they do not know much about uniforms. They may however be able to design something totally different.

 

[DarkVorlon]

Re: What\'s in a Wing

Well in Signs and Portents Ivanova left the station with a "wing" of 9 starfurys and returns only with seven even when she didn't have to defend the freighter... go count them.

Now, did you saw the First One armadas those were really "wings". Is a shame that they are now gone! But who needs an armada when you are a vorlon. As a Vorlons you have your own personal fleping wings!!!

Long live to the First Ones!!!