What's your rewatching thoughts?

[Jan]

I have to say, I'm a little bummed that JMS is going to do a Superman comic. Does anyone else on here read his comics? I just don't think there's that much to work with in Superman. It's just a simple concept, which has been beaten to death. I still want more B5 comics, with all the wonderful complexity he could work with in that universe (again, I know). I just think he's going in the wrong direction with this. I still might read it though.

I'll definitely be reading it. Sure, I'd love more B5 comics (with decent art this time, please) but I'm interested to see what he'll do with Superman. I've only read a few Supes since I was a kid and all of them were superficial at best. With the opportunity to relaunch Superman and not be tied to the 22-page format, I think he'll do good things.

Jan

 

[A_M_Swallow]

watched 'shadow dancing' last night......

Why the hell did the shadow fleet come out of hyperspace so far away from their target ?

Straight from the horse's mouth (via JMS Speaks on the Lurker's Guide): " Why didn't the Shadows emerge right next to their targets?
So they could drive any other ships toward the center, into the killing zone. If they come in into the center, everybody splits in every possible direction, and that makes running 'em all down harder.

If the shadows were to materialize in the midst of the refugee ships, they'd just scatter in every direction. The purpose is to wipe out all those ships quickly and efficiently...so you start at the outer fringe, drive everyone inward, and then wipe them all out. To jump into the middle of them makes it very hard to do this...it's like herding kittens. "

In which case the Shadows would have boxed the refugee ships in by coming out of hyperspace at 8 points - the corners of a box. In theory 3 points in a big 3D triangle could work but that leaves lots of escape room.

 

[A_M_Swallow]

{snip}
As for the PPG, Sheridan might have had an unloaded one on him in plain sight, or one with a dead energy cap, knowing that it would be taken from him.

A little earlier Sheridan gives his wife the PPG in his hip holster, she hands it over.

 

[KoshN]

Yep, opposite the Super Bowl, in Colorado, anyway. I tend to forget it was a syndicated program then.

D'oh! that's right! I have no idea when it aired on FOX-53 here in the Pittsburgh, PA.

 

[Shaal Mayan]

I would like to see more B5 period .I have been rewatching the series lately and it is just as good as it was when I first saw it ,years age

 

[Starkiller]

And up until ‘Z’ha’dum’, we see several humans who are spoiling for another war with the Minbari. But of course, the second Earth-Minbari War storyline got dropped. Or postponed…


Raw Shark

My bold. I've always been intrigued as to whether a second war between Earth and Minbar would ever occur. I can imagine many humans who would want to do to the Minbari what was done to them. Given Earth's technological advancements and acquisitions, it seems that Earth would be able to hand itself more adequately. Furthermore, since humanity is destined to reach 'first one' status and become just as the Vorlons, pure energy. Could the humans and Minbari repeat the mistakes of the Shadows and Vorlons? In essence humans and Minbari forming opposing ideological movements? I'm sure I read somewhere that a character (perhaps a Vorlon or other elder being) remarks something to the effect of "Earth and Minbar are friends, for now..."?

 

[Raw Shark]

Hmm, I don't remember that quote, does anyone else? But whether it's Sheridan being taught by Kosh, or given the White Star (with Vorlon tech), or if it's the secretive Earth agencies working with the Shadows and studying their tech, it is clear that Earth's future is being heavily influenced by the First Ones. And with their tech left behind, it appears they're not done. The kind of tech being used seems to dictate the actions of those using it. Sheridan and Delenn use Vorlon tech to establish the ISA and a new galactic order. EarthForce uses Shadow tech to build warships, which seem to be good only for destruction. And controlling them is a problem, so their use results in killing sprees and chaos. Rule by hidden hand. Oh, those sneaky First Ones...

Damn I miss B5!

Raw Shark

"Oh the peddlers of death always come calling, one more time...
Bearing promises of feeling fine..."
Zakk Wylde, Peddlers of Death

 

[Starkiller]

By my limited reckoning of Babylon 5 lore. Earthforce's experimentation and use of Shadow technology stopped after President Clark's corrupt regime was toppled? I'm not sure whether tampering with Shadow technology may have contributed to the "Great Burn" but it seems mankind becomes enlightened by the year 1,000,000 nonetheless. So if mankind evolves to become pure energy, wearing encounter suits which mimic that of the Vorlons and even taking their old homeworld as their own. Will any race stand in opposition?

 

[KoshFan]

There's evidence that the Minbari have gotten that far by that point too, as the ship which carries the pure-energy/encounter-suited human away from Sol going nova has a Rangers logo on the side, Minbari figure included. And JMS said afterward that the Minbari got that far, too. The Narns and Centauri, while possibly not extinct, didn't.

As I see it, it's the perfect partnership. The Minbari take on a older-mentor and wisdom-of-the-ancients role, guiding the younger human energy, while the Humans make sure the Minbari don't get stagnant. It's as if the Shadows and Vorlons worked together from the start, rather than in opposition.

Would anyone eventually oppose us? Of course. Just as we grew up and replaced the First Ones before us, someone will grow up and replace us. But as Sheridan is still remembered a million years later, perhaps we'll go more gracefully.

 

[Raw Shark]

Okay Starkiller, ready for spoilers?

There is a bunch of material about Earth and Shadow tech, before and after Clark. Clark's regime was short-lived, but Earth's obsession with Shadow tech was going on for some time before it. These are the people tasked with developing the weapons to fight and win the next war, and as far as they are concerned, the likely enemy is the Minbari (and the Shadows exploited this psychological fixation). With Humanity almost being annihilated the last time, they must win next time. This project also involves IPX and Psi Corps (see below).

Ivanova destroyed Clark's battlegroup of Shadow Omegas in 'Between the Darkness and the Light,' but we never find out where those ships came from. After Clark dies and the war is won, she then exits stage left and goes on to command the Warlock destroyer Titans, which is revealed in the short story 'Hidden Agendas' to be using Shadow tech as its central control system.

The Shadow hybrid ship that destroys the Cerberus in 'Crusade' (further explained and used in two of the unproduced scripts for the series) is one result of this project. And the Cerberus was destroyed in 2259, so the hybrid design is at least eight years old by the time 'Crusade' begins. Galen also, umm, interacts with one toward the end of the second Technomage novel (same event as Gideon's flashback of the Cerberus). And the unfilmed script for the season finale, 'End of the Line', really goes into who's building these ships and why.

So after Clark's death, Earth's interest in Shadow tech is still quite strong. The project continues, presumably carried out by IPX, EarthForce New Technologies Division, the Office of Planetary Security, and whoever else is lurking in the darkest corners of EarthDome. I know the short stories and unproduced scripts are not (yet) readily available, but they can be found. Cool stuff, too.

I'm halfway through the first Psi Corps novel, and there's a part where IPX is experimenting with organic tech they've found on Mars, 100 years before Babylon 5 begins. And the MRA, soon to be the Psi Corps, wants in. Really good book, I love Keyes' writing. Right man for the job.

Raw Shark

"And that, my friend, is how you win an Opium War."
Monty Burns

 

[vorlonlovechild]

By my limited reckoning of Babylon 5 lore. Earthforce's experimentation and use of Shadow technology stopped after President Clark's corrupt regime was toppled? I'm not sure whether tampering with Shadow technology may have contributed to the "Great Burn" but it seems mankind becomes enlightened by the year 1,000,000 nonetheless. So if mankind evolves to become pure energy, wearing encounter suits which mimic that of the Vorlons and even taking their old homeworld as their own. Will any race stand in opposition?

Hang on there is no evidence that 'mankind' is enlightened at all. We only saw one ranger. Who's to say that he wasn't the exception to the rule, rather than an example of all humans by that point.

 

[KoshFan]

*coughcough*RangerInsignia*coughcough*

 

[Starkiller]

Hang on there is no evidence that 'mankind' is enlightened at all. We only saw one ranger. Who's to say that he wasn't the exception to the rule, rather than an example of all humans by that point.

There isn't anything which proves otherwise. Furthermore there's no need for any 'evidence', it's implied in the episode "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars". The 'lone' Ranger is on his own because he clearly is in charge of archiving humanity's history from the year 2262 to 1,000,000 and transmitting it to mankind's new homeworld; New Earth. The computer reminds the Ranger the Sun will go supernova in five hours and he tells the computer to reassure the 'others' he will make it to New Earth in time for the celebrations. As he wouldn't miss it for anything. To me when the Ranger remarks that humans have "left the cradle for the last time" it is a significant statement. Humanity has irrevocably changed both in evolutionary terms and in its existence as a species. One cannot escape the clear metaphor of him changing into a ball of energy and flying towards a new homeworld to be with his people.

 

[vorlonlovechild]

Hang on there is no evidence that 'mankind' is enlightened at all. We only saw one ranger. Who's to say that he wasn't the exception to the rule, rather than an example of all humans by that point.

There isn't anything which proves otherwise. Furthermore there's no need for any 'evidence', it's implied in the episode "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars". The 'lone' Ranger is on his own because he clearly is in charge of archiving humanity's history from the year 2262 to 1,000,000 and transmitting it to mankind's new homeworld; New Earth. The computer reminds the Ranger the Sun will go supernova in five hours and he tells the computer to reassure the 'others' he will make it to New Earth in time for the celebrations. As he wouldn't miss it for anything. To me when the Ranger remarks that humans have "left the cradle for the last time" it is a significant statement. Humanity has irrevocably changed both in evolutionary terms and in its existence as a species. One cannot escape the clear metaphor of him changing into a ball of energy and flying towards a new homeworld to be with his people.

Yep. I'm not debating that.

Its just a funny impression I got at the end of the episode. Now I believe JMS has said that 'something' is making the sun explode. What is this? Who is doing it? Why are they doing it?

Has Humanity split into 2? We get glimpses of 'history' which indictates humanity is divided. Did the Pro-Earth faction come out on top, or did the Alliance supporters gain the upper hand in mankinds evolution?

(dont shoot me, but I always got the impression the man in the encounter suit was David Sheridan (alright take that gun away please) - which is why the gathering of information was so personal to him)

 

[vacantlook]

Its just a funny impression I got at the end of the episode. Now I believe JMS has said that 'something' is making the sun explode. What is this? Who is doing it? Why are they doing it?

Has Humanity split into 2? We get glimpses of 'history' which indictates humanity is divided. Did the Pro-Earth faction come out on top, or did the Alliance supporters gain the upper hand in mankinds evolution?

I always assumed it was some outside group, perhaps some future Drakh or other Shadow minions, but the idea that it was some rejected group of humans would be interesting.

 

[Sindatur]

Its just a funny impression I got at the end of the episode. Now I believe JMS has said that 'something' is making the sun explode. What is this? Who is doing it? Why are they doing it?

Has Humanity split into 2? We get glimpses of 'history' which indictates humanity is divided. Did the Pro-Earth faction come out on top, or did the Alliance supporters gain the upper hand in mankinds evolution?

I always assumed it was some outside group, perhaps some future Drakh or other Shadow minions, but the idea that it was some rejected group of humans would be interesting.

in 1 Million years, but, who knows about in 2 MIllion years (if they survive that long)

 

[Starkiller]

Its just a funny impression I got at the end of the episode. Now I believe JMS has said that 'something' is making the sun explode. What is this? Who is doing it? Why are they doing it?

I find the matter of the Sun being destroyed by an unknown party to be a last minute addition. It doesn't make sense to me. During the final sequence with the future Ranger, the computer with which he's 'conversing' states: "Note : atypical solar emissions increasing in intensity." "Estimate Sol will hit nova in less than five standard hours." Now during that sequence JMS states on the commentary "there's a line (of dialogue) in here about unusual frequencies bothering the sun. Some one is destroying the Sun. Some one is actually taking that thing out." However, in the episode there's no mention of an outside force inducing the Sun to go supernova. All the computer states is that the Sun's irregular level of "solar emissions" is increasing. Furthermore, the Ranger also seems very calm and composed. Perhaps this is due to the poise and manner in which humans conduct themselves in the year 1,000,000 who do not become emotional nor hysteric so easily as one may expect. Afterall, this is a mankind which has elevated itself to apotheosis (ascending rather than "falling toward apotheosis").

Now if you listen to the wording of JMS he did say "some one is taking the thing out". One would think it to imply a deliberate act of destruction. However, does it have to be a willful act of belligerence? Could it simply have been a measure to prevent knowledge and technology falling into the wrong hands? Imagine all the libraries and pieces of technology amassed by mankind which enabled it to ascend to first one status. Even though their new home had the old Vorlon technology and architecture. It could still be more advanced that what the humans of 1,000,000 C.E created. Whatever they left behind on Earth could be found by a lesser advance race who may misuse that knowledge and technology. In such a case why not strip the planet of all such knowledge and technology? Perhaps they're unable to do so and thought it safer to destroy such knowledge. Now we're not given exact details but I would guess that when mankind returned to the stars en mass after the "Great Burn". It evolved to become better than it was before and so a new equilibrium started to develope within mankind. Perhaps the holy scriptures of "Babylon 5'" had preordained that humans would one day be permitted to 'enter the gates of paradise' although rather than a celestial Heaven their paradise was the old Vorlon homeworld; New Earth. Most if not all of mankind may have migrated to the new homeworld with no one to act as a custodian for the old Earth (other than the sole Ranger who had departed).

Of course I could be incorrect and it was simply a rival faction/civilisation of humans or hostile aliens.

Has Humanity split into 2? We get glimpses of 'history' which indictates humanity is divided. Did the Pro-Earth faction come out on top, or did the Alliance supporters gain the upper hand in mankinds evolution?

The glimpes or snapshots of mankind's progression up until the "Great Burn" had shown that a residual 'movement' for want of a better term from the Shadows-Clark alliance had endured and perhaps slowly sown the seeds of discontent. To me, the "Great Burn" began to signify mankind's shedding of the old ways and a purging of any belief which would allow it to repeat the mistakes of the past. It's also important to bear in mind what the anti-alliance man from 2762 says to Garibaldi. Something to the effect of "we're tired of being restricted by the Interstellar Alliance. We want more room to expand". Essentially it was a power grab and it all started because one side of Earth was expansionist. It's still possible that a similar or descendent faction remained even through to the year 1,000,000 C.E. However, given that JMS said mankind had "come full-circle" and "Vorlon-like" (minus their failings and mistakes), they were now the teachers and custodians of the younger race. A process which would not be bestowed upon a race unless it had become enlightened. To answer your question more clearly. Yes I feel the Instellar Alliance supporters became dominant although we know the Rangers had a hand in pushing mankind back to the stars.

(dont shoot me, but I always got the impression the man in the encounter suit was David Sheridan (alright take that gun away please) - which is why the gathering of information was so personal to him)

PPG

I thought David Sheridan had dark hair and not red hair (the future Ranger seemed to have red or 'ginger' facial hair). He could have been a descendent of Sheridan but since JMS makes no special mention of him. I don't think he is David Sheridan. The Ranger may have been a 'keeper' or a future chronicler. He's charged with keeping records of human history and of course preserving it for future generations. As for the significance of what he's doing. He mentions that the world will be consumed in fire but not darkness but its spirit will live on through the recording of all the voices of from his ancestors to the last generation. It's a very poignant, portentous and emotionally moving moment for him.

 

[Sindatur]

I personally always assumed it was the Earthlings themselves who were blowing up Earth to protect the younger races from their technology. It is an interesting thought though that it could have been an enemy

 

[babylonfan]

I personally always assumed it was the Earthlings themselves who were blowing up Earth to protect the younger races from their technology. It is an interesting thought though that it could have been an enemy

I also think we are blowing up Earth ourselves. The guy is far to composed and calm to be in a (apparantly loosing!) war. Also: the guy is asked to hurry or else he would miss the celebration. You´re hardly likely to celebrate when your homeworld is about to be destroyed by hostile forces.

 

[vorlonlovechild]

The humans have moved on mass to the vorlon homeworld. Something had to trigger that. We would not just move for the sake of moving, unless something was happening which would threaten our very existance.

If we were destroying any chance of anyone else getting their hands on technology why not just destroy earth?



Typical JMS to leave more questions than answers.