who are the real villains here ???

[AngelSummers]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>No. Adults take responsibility for their own actions. Perhaps as an atheist my view is made subjective because I don't believe we answer to a god or any such non-human judgement. We are our own judges.

Besides, it doesn't matter if we "call them innocent." They are our enemies and must be treated as such, regardless of how they came to be that way.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At long last, we finally agree with something.

Well, the responsibility part anyway. In buddhism, nobody actually judges our bad deeds. Karma is like a universal law that records down everything you do in life. Think of it as an eternal account of our bad deeds. No actual God governs the law of Karma, but it is there. Very simple: do good and your chances of reborning into a better life increases , do bad and the opposite happens. And hell is not the only place you go too. There's animals, there's ghosts(ala Sixth Sense) and there's the demons.But your right in saying we all control our own actions and therefore must be responsible for them. We can't blame anybody else. (Satan for example)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> AngelSummers, what the heck is 1/4 atheist, anyway? Either you believe in god or ya don't. I'm just curious. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh I believe in God alright. I just don't believe what He thinks He is. And as I said previously, there are still a few areas in Buddhism I still don't understand if not actually disagree with. Maybe atheist isn't a good word. Free thinker is more like it. So if I'm not a hundred percent Buddhist, I guess I had to be atheist or free thinker.

As for believing in God, well, First of all I respect all religions and don't like to dismiss them out of hand. So I accept them with a pinch of salt. Also in Buddhism there are sixth planes of godly realms or heavens, one of which, the fifth highest I think, where the gods or devas delight in the creation of things.

That's what I love about Buddhism. Apart from the outwardly themes, in terms of phsycology, all the theories about Human behaviour is actually logical.

------------------
May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.

May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.

 

[GKarsEye]

I sincerely apologise to AngelSummers and everyone else for being such an ass about this, but this is something that sticks in my craw, and I have to say this. I promise this is the last I'll talk about it here.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Oh I believe in God alright. I just don't believe what He thinks He is. And as I said previously, there are still a few areas in Buddhism I still don't understand if not actually disagree with. Maybe atheist isn't a good word. Free thinker is more like it. So if I'm not a hundred percent Buddhist, I guess I had to be atheist or free thinker.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then you are not and atheist. Period.

I don't mean to yell at you specifically, but words should mean the things they mean. Atheism is simply the opposite of theism, which is belief in god. You say you believe in god; therefore, not an atheist.
There are plenty of folks who don't identify with a religion, but still believe in god. Fine. They are still theists.

Atheism also does not mean "free thinker" (which is such an arrogant term that means nothing, but that's another topic). You can be an atheist and still be ignorant, foolish, close minded, etc. It speaks nothing of personal behoviour, action, character, philosophy, etc. There are many atheists who have a very positive outlook on things, that are kind of "spiritual" in a way. They just don't believe in god. An atheist can even believe in ghosts and reincarnation and astrology. (Of course, I would call the person a stupid atheist, but that's just me

).

------------------
"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

 

[B5_Obsessed]

Wow, this thread has taken off!
This is the part where I bring out one of my favorite JMS postings from Usenet. It touches upon atheism, religion, and everything in between.
*****************************************
"There needs to be some relationship with god, or else what you build your life on will collapse."

Nope. Start with many of the Founding Fathers, many of whom were deists or freethinkers or non-believers. Go back to pre-christianity, to the great works of literature and art and architecture that survive to this day. You cannot stand in the shadow of the Pyramids, or in the massive burial mound in New Grange (the oldest standing structure on the planet, pre-bronze age), and not feel awe and respect for what has been done.

Lots of people pretend to, or offer lip service to, or may even in their view have "some relationship with god." But not damned nearly enough of them have some relationship with the suffering of their fellow human beings.

Understand clearly and do not misrepresent in any reply: I have NO problem whatsoever with believers of any stripe. My problem emerges when someone tells me that if I don't think as they do, my life is without
meaning or foundation. No one is entitled to make that determination but me.

I'm an atheist. Straight up. I believe in the stubborn nobility of the human being singular, the dignity and grace of our art and our intellect and our heart. I believe that a race which can write a sonnet, split the atom, and walk on the moon has *nothing* to apologize for. I believe that because we are only here for the duration of our life, and that there is nothing after, that therefore *each* life is as precious and valuable a resource as diamonds, and far rarer. The Mona Lisa is of note because there's only one. There is only one of each of us. To quote from Lost Horizon, I believe there can be no greater or nobler creed than
the simplicity of, "Be *kind* to one another." I believe that we are stewards of our planet and brothers and sisters to the entirety of its population. I believe in the power of common men and women who, despite
pain and loss and overwhelming odds, can come together in common cause and walk together into the future. I look to World War II, where ordinary people, starting out outgunned and unprepared for war and hit by
depression and surprise attack, shrugged off their coats, straightened their spines, and walked off to beat the mightiest military force the world had ever known; David facing a black-uniformed Goliath that stood astride the planet on legs of fire and steel.

*That's* what we can do when we make up our minds to do it.

As Delenn said, we are better than we think and nobler than we know, and at the end of the day, when we face that black, implacable
wall of death, for my money what matters is being able to look back at one's life the way one looks at the end of a long day; did we fight our own battles, were we as kind as we could be, did we move the future a little closer, did we uplift and ennoble and enrich?

It says in the Bible, "no greater love hath a man than that he lay down his life for his brother." In the case of Ramirez, or the crew of the Narn cruiser in "Acts of Sacrifice," it's true regardless of whether
the person is an atheist or an alien race.

Your question is framed around the premise of "who serves god?" but my concern is "who serves humanity?" One may be a monk and remain in a monestary, and speak once in a dozen years, and serve god through the daily effort and daily prayers that are the beginning and end of his days. One may be an atheist who gives to charity, helps build homes for the homeless, and helps his fellows where possible. The former serves only himself; the latter serves humanity. Both may approach their bed at night with a clear conscience within the dictates of their beliefs. (And yes, obviously those are two extreme examples, I'm not trying to
describe one camp or the other in such all-encompassing terms.)

That which I choose to build my life upon will not "collapse" because it has met the criteria I set for it. I've told my stories,
touched other people; daily I receive letters from people who say that my show has inspired them to begin careers in the sciences, or helped them to deal with the death of a parent, or were moved by the sacrifices portrayed in this show to give a little of themselves and switch to major
in social sciences or social work, or to become involved in charities.

The good work of this series will continue long after I am gone, and that cannot be taken away, cannot collapse. It is already done.

And in the end, yes, all we have is the question of whether we go with dignity and honor, knowing that we have lived our lives with passion and compassion in equal measure. For me, that knowledge is enough to sustain me when the game is finally called on account of darkness.

You do not have to believe as I do. I do not consider your choice a vain or foolish one, or attempt to invalidate it, or suggest that it will collapse of its own weight. All I ask is the same in response.

Do not consider this a flame, for it is not meant as such; only as a most...vigorous response.

jms
*********************************
Damn, that boy can write!

------------------
"Draal gave Zathras list of things not to say.
This was one. No.... *tsk tsk*
No. Not good.
Not supposed to mention... "one", or... THE one.
Hmmmm.
You never heard that."

[This message has been edited by B5_Obsessed (edited November 27, 2001).]

 

[hypatia]

Didn't JMS himself say that nothing will turn one into an atheist faster than an open, honest study of religions? I'm not sure if he has a degree in it, but I think he does. (A degree in religious studies, I mean, maybe a graduate degree, I don't know.)

I think that's why his writing is so rich with religious parallels, and yet he is an atheist himself.

------------------
"I do not believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense,
reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."-- Galileo

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>...what the heck is 1/4 atheist, anyway? Either you believe in god or ya don't. I'm just curious.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the tricky part, GKarsEye.

If you define atheism as not believing in any god, you will also have to provide a definition of what you consider a god.

An example: would the Minbari belief of the universe having some degree of consciousness qualify as a belief in god? Where to draw the line?

I bet that different people are going to define a god in different ways, leaving a large grey area between "belief in a god" and "no belief in a god".

------------------
"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Shadow hour of scampering, run for ya lives!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>GKarsEye wrote:

An atheist can even believe in... [snip] ...and reincarnation and [snip]. (Of course, I would call the person a stupid atheist, but that's just me.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No offense taken. On the "snip" parts I agree.

These concepts leave me indifferent. But for the fun of it, let me try to explain why I find the idea of reincarnation attractive (to escape the rambling and skip to conclusions, go to the next-to-last paragraph).

This concept can be approached from a number of angles. But the basic idea means believing that a person has some lasting essence -- which may continue in (or come back to) this world even after the person is gone.

What might the essence of a person comprise? What defines a person? What makes you you and me me? I would say that it is our view of the world, principles, beliefs, memories, thoughts and deeds.

Where does this essence originate from? I would say "from the world" -- and from other persons, no matter if our contemporaries or distant predecessors. A brain can build a new personality only basing on information, information which it accepts from the world. This includes an understanding of how the world works, combined with thoughts, deeds, ideas and opinions from other persons. Only by building on this can a person create something new, contribute to the world which created it.

How much of this essence dies with the person? Can some of it come back? I would say that something is definitely lost... but a lot remains. What this person thought and did has been recorded in the world, some things more and some less directly. I has already helped and will continue to help in forming new persons -- as long as life exists.

This approach would make our essence similar to the Minbari description of soul: unique yet very old, not localized and yet attached to places. Unique -- none is exactly the same, each creates something new. Old -- based on previos generations, history, past thoughts and ways. Not localized -- influences from one person do not continue together. Attached to places -- a being's view of the world depends on his or her species, environment, history and living conditions.

This is why I like how Minbari philosophy was depicted in Babylon 5 (and find Delenn's speech upon leaving the station very touching). It is intriguingly similar to how I think and has given me many interesting ideas to consider.

This is why I find the concept of reincarnation attractive (and find it easy to relate to similar approaches). If our beliefs, thoughts and deeds will re-assemble themselves in new generations, one could easily express this as "building the future for ourselves" -- or being reborn into a life which we create in previous lives. I find that such views can promote responsibility for our choices, while still valuing the uniqueness of each life.

Rambling over... I did not manage to say what I wished to say, but didn't drift very far off course. It is just my opinion, I thank you for thinking differently. The Shadow in me thinks that diversity can only make us stronger.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited November 27, 2001).]

 

[GKarsEye]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> Didn't JMS himself say that nothing will turn one into an atheist faster than an open, honest study of religions? I'm not sure if he has a degree in it, but I think he does. (A degree in religious studies, I mean, maybe a graduate degree, I don't know.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know if he said it, but I am such a case. People's reactions to my staunch atheism are at first negative, but are taken aback when it is revealed that I know my stuff. I spent a lot of time in high school and college with this stuff. I should put that effort into more useful things, like video games and girls.

------------------
"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

 

[AngelSummers]

I think we're getting a little too much of religious discussion. G;Karseye, fine, I'm not an atheist if you say I'm not with adequate truth. I'm sorry I ever brought this subject up.

------------------
May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.

May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.

 

[GKarsEye]

Geez, Lennier, you don't have to complicate the issue. "My definition" of god is the same as anyone else's. It's basically a supreme being.

I don't know enough about Minbari religion to know whether or not they believe in a god or gods. It seems that it may have been JMS' way to create a religion without gods, a sort of "atheist religion," in a sense.

Minbari do worship Valen, though. If they deify him, well, then he's a god to them, therefore, not atheists.

The whole "universe as a consciousness" thing seems like a cop out. The universe created people to understand itself? WTF? I can certainly understand the warrior caste not getting along with the religious caste.

I think the ultimate tell-tale signs of a theist is the act of prayer. If you pray, you must be praying to some god or gods. In order to pray to gods, you must believe in them. Who do Minbari pray to? The universe? That just doesn't make any sense. And please don't tell me that prayer is meditation. Sure, the two can serve each other, be done together, and so forth, but they're two different things. Since Minbari pray, it stands to reason that they believe in some supreme being and are therefore theists, which makes sense since they have an entire caste dedicated to religion.

The difference between believing in a god as Supreme Being, like the Judeo-Christian mythos, and the deification of natural objects, such as primitive Naturalistic faiths, some pagan practices, and, apparently, the Minbari religion, is that the former involves a being that is understood completely in the abstract, while the latter anthropomorphizes observable objects (moon, trees, the universe). Whether or not you make up a seperate god, or you make the tree a god, you're stilling believing in god. Therefore, I would conclude that Minbari are theists.

Well, that must have been boring to read. I babble.

------------------
"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

No, not boring at all.

But I spotted a weakness in your reasoning... and in a truly annoying Minbari manner will try to poke a hole into it.

Perhaps we should also define the term "prayer". From your comments I conclude that you define it as making requests to an all powerful entity -- someone who has the power to grant these requests. But if the universe is confused and has divided itself up to understand itself... how can it be all-powerful or adressable as a single entity?

If the closest thing to god in Minbari beliefs is the universe (including the person who presents the prayer) then who would they pray to? No matter who, it would include themselves -- and you can't request things from yourself. Neither can you request things from other entities who are powerless to grant your request. Therefore by Minbari definitions, a prayer would not be a request.

What might the Minbari definition of prayer be? Have you considered the simplest answer: it would be a formulation of one's hopes (no matter if verbal or mental). Defining what you hope helps in clarifying your objectives, finding better ways to make them come true.

Perhaps it is in this way?

------------------
"We are the universe, trying to figure itself out.
Unfortunately we as software lack any coherent documentation."
-- Delenn

 

[AngelSummers]

Now I'm even more sorry I brought this up. Look wher this discussion is heading?

Next time, I keep Buddhsim to myself.

------------------
May the light of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha protect you.

May you all be well and happy, free from suffering, free from sickness.

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

enough allready !!!!

i wish i didnt post the damn topic !!!!!

------------------
"Your patience is also a weapon, when used properly. We will arrive when we arrive and we will have the weapons we have. You can not win this war through force, you must .. understand your way out of this. Sheridan knows. What remains to be seen is whether he knows that he knows."
-- Lorien to Ivanova in Babylon 5:"Into the Fire"

------------------------visit my website - http://www.babylonfive.net

 

[GKarsEye]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR> From your comments I conclude that you define it as making requests to an all powerful entity -- someone who has the power to grant these requests. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never said this at all. Everyone knows it's more than that.

Lennier, you can't try to prove points by making up definitions for things and then using that to make a point. We all know what prayer and god are.

Summers and Healey, have you not noticed now that threads tend to stray off-topic? Well, we hijacked your thread, so nyeh-nyeh

------------------
"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

 

[Jade Jaguar]

G'Kar's Eye, that seems a rather common definition of prayer to me. Webster's defines it as an address or petition to God or a god. So, although there are other reasons for prayer, such as to ask advice, Lennier's example is probably the most common one. Really, prayer is supplication, and in common usage might not even be addressed to God. I believe the Romans sometimes prayed to the Emperor, and although they sometimes claimed to be gods, I'm not sure many believed them. So, I think it is possible for someone who does not believe in a supreme, supernatural being, to pray. Historically, the English used it so much in ordinarry speech, aimed at other humans, that it was reduced to prithee, meaning: I pray thee... throw me a coin, sir, or whatever.

------------------
You're speaking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Maid Marian
Fluently! Errol Flynn as Robin Hood
You're talking treason! Olivia De Havilland as Arabella Bishop
I trust I'm not obscure. Errol Flynn as Dr. Peter Blood

Pallindromes of the month: Snug was I, ere I saw guns.
Doom an evil deed, liven a mood.

 

[GKarsEye]

I now appoint Jade and Lennier the "Confusing the Issue Twins."

Prayer is as commonly, if not more so, especially in modern Western culture, used to give thanks, as well as to "ask for stuff." In fact, most people I know pray to give thanks. Isn't that what most did this past Thursday (in the US)?

So, we all know damn well what prayer is. Prayer means god is involved, plain and simple.

------------------
"You do not make history. You can only hope to survive it."

 

[**DONOTDELETE**]

My apologies for nitpicking, but is is my view that good-natured nitpicking does no harm. There are a thousand ways to define each word, but my fondness for nitpicking refuses to give way. Before agreeing to disagree with GKarsEye, I would like to to present this example.

---

A ship has suffered damage from a collision and powers up its reactor for the first time. The Minbari who repaired the reactor is asked what will happen. "I will push the button and pray that it works." What could the word which gets translated to English as "pray" mean for the Minbari?

---

1. It can't be asking for wisdom. Everything that matters has been done. You can not push the button any more wisely.

---

2. It can't be asking someone to make the reactor work. There are no such entities in the Minbari view of the world. Yes, they consider the universe conscious -- but not omnipotent, certain or perfect. What the universe does depends on what what individual beings do. They influence it by choosing what they do, doing their part of the duty.

So who has influenced what becomes of the reactor? Those who designed it, those who built it, those who used it. And the person who repaired it. No place for god, at least for the Minbari.

---

3. It is most probably a simple formulation of your hopes.

"I hope that it works."
"I hope that I made no mistakes."
"I hope that they built it well."
"It would be nice if the damn thing would work."

No requests, no asking for advise, no god included. A definition of one's hopes is IMHO the most general definition of prayer. One independent of all systems of belief.

[This message has been edited by Lennier (edited November 30, 2001).]