<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>I do not. But I can analyze and guess. To me it seems simple. No infrastructure equals no traffic. No traffic equals no younger races.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Things like that are never simple. There are bound to be innocents there working for the shadows, and those homes certainly do not look like what a Shadow would live in. Most likely be like what Elizar and co. experienced inside the Shadow ship.
We saw a city though, a rather low tech city and JMS describes there being other humans in the city (ones that injured Sheriden).
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Younger races need surface-based space ports, roads and buildings. Mars, which has a climate resembling Z'ha'dum, has a lot of surface-based infrastructure. The technology of the younger races allows no mass movements without it. But there was nothing on the surface near one of Z'ha'dums largest cities.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The Shadows can easily supply all that.
That makes no sense, really.. you think that proves there were no younger races around? Because they live underground? Why would the Shadows need buildings to sleep in etc. Does Kosh? No, he only uses it to hide his appearance.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>The surface of Z'ha'dum barren and lifeless. Thus there would be no way for numerous representatives of the younger races to come and go. If none could come and go, neither could many be present. Those present would be limited to a few "associates".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
They would come to the Shadows, and live inside the city of Z'Ha'Dum just like Joseph shows this simple basic fact. They would not need to come and go, they'd LIVE there just as Joseph did.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>He had reasons to doubt if the Shadows were fully sincere. Neither Sheridan nor anyone close to him had talked with a Shadow person-to-person. He did not know what to expect. Going there was the only chance to find out. Perhaps they could be talked to?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, and I gave you those reasons... only a fool would go to the heart of an enemy billion years old with a history of deceit and expect to change the Shadows views. They've been doing it for longer than a the Human race has been around, as above he would be a fool to think they'll change their mind simply because he went there to talk.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Thus he hoped the best, but prepared for the worst. A warship, by its very nature, is an instrument of destruction. A ship with powerful bombs is simply a more horrible instrument of destruction.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The best being he convinces the Shadows to stop.
Yes, Sheriden is far superior in intelligence to a billion year old being. C'mon, seriously... he never gave any indication of this and if he did then that'd make him about the stupidest man alive. Which I frankly do not believe. Did he even try to convince them to stop? No, he didn't even ask or bring up the subject of stopping.
A warship would be no match for their warships, but it would against a city filled with innocents.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Now let us assume that you are Sheridan.
You are sure your enemy wishes to start a hundred wars (which will wipe out tens of sentient species). By attacking you, they have proved they no longer wish to negotiate. You are sure you will not survive. They will gladly use anything they can extract from your mind. You have never met a peaceful individual of their species.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I all ready said I'd do the same as Sheriden, difference is I wouldn't be a hypocrite by preaching to others who are doing the same thing. They never wanted to negotiate in the first place, that much was blatently obvious by the fact they've killed so many, done it again and again and plan to do it forever. He knew this, but he OBVIOUSLY wanted to strike at the heart of the Shadows. This being the perfect chance since how many times does the enemy invite you to the heart of their territory?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>1. Jump, hoping that they can do nothing to catch & revice you.
2. Nuke them, giving your alliance a chance to defeat them.
Given the situation he faced, given what the Shadows' intentions were, given what he knew of the Shadows... I consider his choice not only probable but the best of bad options.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
THIS is not what I am arguing against. I'm arguing against the fact people do not apply the same logic to others.
Vorlons do it = They must be bad
Elizar does it = He must be bad
The only difference between what they and Sheriden did was the fact they did not boast about it, explored every other option beforehand thoroughly, offered the people a choice beforehand (kill yourself, join us, drive off the shadows etc.) and were not hypocrites by judging others who do the same.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>He might have. But due to Kell's mistakes Elizar got too close to them. If the order of technomages had been more open, he would have found many to join him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Elizar was not 'close' he explains clearly he was merely playing to the crowd of the Shadows while trying to raise up a resistance. He tried getting the technomages together but they spat in his face about it, even though THEY were the ones who had done far worse (galen killing so many innocents and Kell lying to everyone and secretly taking from the Shadows). Yet Elizar is seen as the bad guy and Galen the hero, THAT's what I disagree with.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>But he didn't. Kell's mistakes had got him too close to the Shadows. Fear of not becoming a full mage prevented him from telling it all as an apprentice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, Elizar was lying. This is what technomages do, they show you one hand, while the other hand does the real work. It's how they think. He was working for the Shadows, getting secret information and more power while on the overhand was asking Galen, Isabelle, Kell and Blaylock to help him fight them.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>Having become aware of Galen's powers, the Shadows demanded a proof of loyalty. After Isabelle's death there could be very little hope of any help from Galen. And the Shadows might always demand a new proof of loyalty.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But as with Sheriden, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Galen should suck it up and do a small bad thing in order to do a greater good. Elizar and Sheriden realised this, Galen obviously did not. Galen killed Isabelle, Elizar gave him another way out, one where they would live and could work together to take out the Shadows but he spits it back in his face. Even after this Eliar offers him ANOTHER chance to help the technomages and stop the shadows, what does he do? Spits it back in his face again but this time wipes out a large city with innocents because he was 'angry'. Elizar is then led to believe that the technomages are dead, so he has nothing left to save.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, arial">quote:</font><HR>While Elizar may have succeeded in openly fighting the Shadows, trying to do it as their "associate" decided his fate. The Shadows were simply too experienced in manipulating others.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hardly, what decided his fate was the idiocy of the technomages. If they had only HELPED him with his plan and not spat it back in his face everytime he offered them the chance to help then he could have been instrumental in taking down the Shadows.
The Shadows had NOTHING to do with it, Elizar KNEW what the shadows were up to... which is why he was trying to SAVE the technomages. HE asks for the technomages help and they won't give it, leaving him stuck with the Shadows. The technomages are what turned him into a Shadow worker. Not to mention the fact Galen keeps killing those Elizar wanted to protect as well as those who are watching him. Making Elizar more suspect to the Shadows when he lets Galen live all the time.
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Marc Cosgrove
"From chaos, order came. As was inevitable." -Summoning light
