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Why are people complaining about Rotk ending??

The "Mouth of Sauron" was his Human ambassador, who comes out to parley with the Army of the West before the final battle at the Black Gate. (He shows them Frodo's mithril coat, the hobbits' elven robes and other evidence that Frodo has been captured.)

I don't know, but I'm gonna guess no, because in the movie Theoden told Eowyn that she was to rule after him.

Women do not rule in Rohan, the succession goes to the closest male heir. A king who leaves a daughter but no son would be succeeded by a nephew, not his daughter. When the women, children and elderly are moved into the hills for safety Theoden tells Eowyn that she must lead the people of Rohan if he does not return. The assumption is that if he doesn't come back, none of the rest of the army is coming back either - which means all the adults capable of leading (and probably the only possible heir to the royal house since Eomer is unmarried) will be dead on the field with the king. I don't think he was annointing her his heir under all circumstances and whenever he should happen to die. Eomer should still be king and I hope we see the scene where that happens - and his meeting with Aragorn in the midst of the battle, for that matter. I thought Eomer got very short shrift this time around and hope the EE fills things in. I supsect it will with the Faramir/Eowyn story (see my comments on "significant looks", above) but I think he'll still end up Prince of Ithilin, as in the books.

Regards,

Joe
 
Well. I believe that Mouth of Sauron scene was shot. Because in (please don't hit me) Rotk game, you have to fight with him. And in my opinion, as we all know, the game uses the same (but low poly) models that they had in movies... Well, you get my point, at least I don't think that the Mouth of Sauron was created by EA team who made the game, he was just too "lotr" to be made by some.. Well, my point is, that I'm sure that there will be something more at the Black Gates of Mordor.
 
The Rohan monarchy seems to be similar to the British
monarchy. When a monarch dies, the succession goes to the closest male heir - usually a son. Of course, if that monarch only has daughters, then rhe succession falls to the oldest daughter. If the monarch has no children at all, the succession would fall to the monarch's next oldest brother [or sister if he had no brothers]. From there, I'm not quite sure how it works.
Elizabeth II was not expected to ever be queen when she was born. Her father [later George VII, I think] was the second son of the reigning king. That made hin first-in-line to the throne, should his older brother Edward fail to have children. If everything had gone as it should have, Edward would have become king, married a woman of appropriate royal or noble rank, had at least one heir, and ruled Britain for many years. Elizabeth and his sister Margaret would have lived out their lives as important [but not super-important royals] - they probably would have been the Duchess-of-something-or-other. They would have married men of the appropriate rank, had babies, performed the odd public duty, and become patrons of a some worthy charity.
That is how it should have gone - but it didn't. Edward, the Prince of Wales, got the hots for a twice-divorced American, much to the horror of British aristocracy. He might have gotten away with a morganatic marriage if Wallis Simpson had not been twice divorced. [This is where a king marries a commoner, and can become king. Any children they have are considered legitimate, but cannot inherit the throne] But, Edward was not about to give up Wallis, and the British estabslishment were not about to see a twice-divorced woman become queen of England.
So Edward abdicated, so he could stay with Wallis.
Elizabeth's father, being the second-eldest son, was now expected to become king. He was very different from the out-going, flamboyant Edward. Quiet, painfully shy, perfectly content to live quietly in the country with his wife and two children, he now had to become king. He had not been trained for the job, had never expected to get the job, and certainly - he had never wanted it. But, even though he hated the idea, he did become king.
And perhaps it was best for England - and the world that he did. Edward, it seems now, was a Nazi sympathiser. He never would have taken England into the war against Germany. He would probably have negotiated peace at the first possible moment if there had been a war. At the very least, Hitler would have been free to run amok in Europe for many more years than he did. The final death-toll from WWII was horrific, but I think that it would have been far worse if Britain, and later America, had not stuck to their guns, and seen the war out.

But getting bac on topic!

Theoden's son had died [leaving no children of his own], and Theoden had no other children. His cloest relatives were his nephew Eomer, and niece Eowyn, children of his sister Theodwyn - who had died not long after her husband, when Eomer and Eowyn were still young children. So, Eomer became Theoden's heir.
However, Eomer was also Theoden's most important soldier, his second-in-command - his best general if you will. To ride off to war, and not take your best general in Rohan would not be a good idea.
And Theoden was well-aware that in going to the aid of Gondor, that he was essentially leading a suicide mission. He says in the film that he know that they cannot win against Sauron's forces - but they're going anyway. And, of course, Eomer, is going as well. Theoden knows that the chances of either of them returning are not good. So, Eowyn, being the last of Theoden's family is appointed heir, and will lead the people of Rohan.
That's how it should have gone - but once again, it didn't.
Theoden had underestigated Eowyn's desire to become a warrior and fight for her people. He certainly never though that she would disguise herself, shanghai Merry, and head off to the Pelennor Fields with him!
And again, a good thing that she did.
 
When a monarch dies, the succession goes to the closest male heir - usually a son. Of course, if that monarch only has daughters, then rhe succession falls to the oldest daughter

That's how it would work today, and how it worked 60 or so years ago. But further back in history (and Middle Earth is nothing if not further back in history) that was not the tradition. Prior to the Norman conquest the kingship was not technically hereditary at all. Though it frequently passed from father to son, this was not automatic and had to be approved by a council of nobles (the Witan.) It was precisely a dispute over promises made regarding the succession and the refusal of the Witan to recognize his claim that led William the Bastard to invade England in the first place.

After 1066 there were two laws of inheritance. French law allowed for inheritance through the female line and ruling duchesses and queens. The Normans had already deviated from that practice, following the more strictly patrilinear law of their Viking forebearers. While at various times people claimed the throne under different theories, a ruling queen was still seen a completely unacceptable by English statesmen as late at the reign of Henry VIII (which is why it was considered so vital that he produce a male heir, and why he married as often as the did.)

Only the fall-out from the religious crisis that followed the deaths of Henry and his son, made it possible for first Mary and then Elizabeth to take the throne - and Elizabeth was under intense pressure to marry and reproduce at least as much to "complete" and "legitimize" her own rule as to continue the dynasty. Mary and Elizabeth established the precedent of a dead king's daughters becoming ruling queens. Prior to their time there was no such tradition in England. (Although their grandfather, Henry VII, had married the sister of the king he killed in taking the throne by force in an effort to legitimize his own reign.)

And I'm quite sure that Tolkein envisioned no such tradition in Rohan, which is why Theoden's words to Eowyn would have only applied after both he and Eomer were dead, and only for the brief time before Sauron's armies inevitably overtook the refugees of Edoras and killed them all. :) My point in reply to GKE was that Theoden was not so naming her his heir in place of Eomer, and that Eomer, having survived the war, would certainly become king.

Edward, it seems now, was a Nazi sympathiser. He never would have taken England into the war against Germany. He would probably have negotiated peace at the first possible moment if there had been a war. At the very least, Hitler would have been free to run amok in Europe for many more years than he did.

This "theory" doesn't hold water because it exaggerates Edward's importance as king. The monarch hadn't had the kind of power suggested above in something like a hundred years by the time Edward took the throne. He would no more have been able to direct the nation's military and foreign policy than Elizabeth II is today. He might have leant influence to the native Nazi sympathizers like Oswald Whatsizface and whichever of the Mitford sisters was so hot for Adolf, but he would not have been able to prevent Churchill from forming a coalition once it became clear that France was in danger of falling. He could have embarassed England (even more than he did) but not destroyed it.

Regards,

Joe
 
After 1066 there were two laws of inheritance. French law allowed for inheritance through the female line and ruling duchesses and queens. The Normans had already deviated from that practice, following the more strictly patrilinear law of their Viking forebearers. While at various times people claimed the throne under different theories, a ruling queen was still seen a completely unacceptable by English statesmen as late at the reign of Henry VIII (which is why it was considered so vital that he produce a male heir, and why he married as often as the did.)

Joe,

I presume what you mean by that is that in France a male heir could succeed through the female line if the male line died out? Because Salic law did not allow women to become queens in their own right - thus no ruling Queens in France.

BTW, did you hear about the latest piece of research that shows that the current royal family are descended through an illegitimate king - namely Edward IV? Apparently the true king of England is currently living in Australia (descended from the male heirs of the Duke of Clarence - brother of Edward IV and Richard III).
 
The claim that Edward was a bastard rests on fairly shaky ground. And Clarence's children were legally barred from the succession by Act of Parliament - their father had committed treason (he was executed for it) and they fell under the attainder. As far as I know it was never reversed. (If it had been Henry VII would have lost his throne and there would never have been an Elizabeth I.)

Regards,

Joe
 
From what I can remember reading about it, whilst George and his descendents were banned from ascending the throne, it wasn't an issue, as Henry VII (or his father) had married one of Edward IV's daughters? grand-daughters? He himself claimed descent from John of Gaunt, and thus was of the Plantaganet blood-line.

But it was because of the marriage to the daughter of Edward IV that allowed his and his childrens succession to the throne. If it was known that Edward was illegitimate, then it would have passed to George, as he was of the elder house (descended from Lionel, Duke of Clarence), as opposed to Henry VII (who was descended through John of Gaunt through his father's side). I'll check my books on this.
 
But it was because of the marriage to the daughter of Edward IV that allowed his and his childrens succession to the throne.

Henry VII did marry one of Edward's daughters as a way of improving his claim to the throne and that of his heirs, but not as a way of establishing it. His claim was based primarily on the same ground as William I's claim - right of conquest. His forces had defeated and killed the annointed king, who had no direct heir, and Parliament recognized his title to the throne. His claim of descent from John of Gaunt was itself a secondary claim to the throne, and his marriage to Edward's daughter at best a tertiary one. That was mostly a political move aimed at reuniting the York and "Lancastrian" branches of the Plantagent tree, and thus symbolically end the Wars of the Roses once and for all. So I wouldn't start addressing that Aussie chap as "Your Majesty" just yet. :)

Regards,

Joe
 
While at various times people claimed the throne under different theories, a ruling queen was still seen a completely unacceptable by English statesmen as late at the reign of Henry VIII...

... Mary and Elizabeth established the precedent of a dead king's daughters becoming ruling queens. Prior to their time there was no such tradition in England.

Not quite correct :)

In 1135, when Henry I died, he was succeeded by his daughter, the Empress Maud (or Matilda - she was known by both names), who Henry had named as his heir.

Unfortunately, her cousin, Stephen, siezed the throne while she was still in France with her husband, unable to travel because of her pregnancy.

This led to a period of civil was lasting from 1136 to 1147. The issue was only resolved when Stephen's son, Eustace, died, and he named Maud's son, Henry as his heir, bypassing his own young son, another William, in the process.

And so the English were preserved from having a King Eustace, and got Henry II and the Plantagenets as a result :)
 
Edward, it seems now, was a Nazi sympathiser. He never would have taken England into the war against Germany. He would probably have negotiated peace at the first possible moment if there had been a war. At the very least, Hitler would have been free to run amok in Europe for many more years than he did.

This "theory" doesn't hold water because it exaggerates Edward's importance as king. The monarch hadn't had the kind of power suggested above in something like a hundred years by the time Edward took the throne. He would no more have been able to direct the nation's military and foreign policy than Elizabeth II is today. He might have leant influence to the native Nazi sympathizers like Oswald Whatsizface and whichever of the Mitford sisters was so hot for Adolf, but he would not have been able to prevent Churchill from forming a coalition once it became clear that France was in danger of falling. He could have embarassed England (even more than he did) but not destroyed it.
Not quite.

Edward would not have stopped Chamberlain going to war with Germany that was outside his powers. When Chamberlain resigned the King used his emergency powers to appoint Churchill prime minister. Edward may have used the same powers to appoint Lord Halifax. Halifax wanted to negotiate a peace treaty with Hitler - in simple English surrender France for peace.

Churchill got rid of Lord Halifax by sending him to Washington as British Ambassador, where he could negotiate much better treaties.
 
I decided to skip over the whole Stephen/Maud thing because (a) it is too damned hard to keep straight in my head and I didn't want to go digging up references and (b) as a practical matter it was not agreed that Maud could and should inherit. The main reason that many nobles supported Stephen was because they refused to be ruled by a woman, and there were legal arguments against her taking the throne. (I'm not saying they were good arguments, just that they existed.) So both at law and on the ground there was no clear decision in favor of Maud and the principle of female rule. The ensuing civil war and repeated changes of advantage finally put Maud's son on the throne through mutual agreement of the parties, but the precise nature of the succession and the right of a woman to rule in her own name were never really settled. Scholars continued to argue both sides of the issue and - again - by the beginning of Henry VIII's reign competent statesmen were virtually unanimous in their belief that a woman on the English throne was unthinkable.

Re: Churchill and Hallifax.

It has been awhile since I've studied the political side of Churchill's rise in 1940, buy my impression was that King George, who was not personally crazy about Churchill, called upon him to form a government because he was correctly seen as the leader of the opposition to the policies of Chamberlain, which had so spectacularly failed. He was, in other words, the only leader who could for a coalition. Hallifax was too identified with appeasement and would not have been accepted by Parliament. A King Edward might have asked him to form a government, but would have had to bow to reality when he failed. Also Edward might have been much more personally inclined to choose Churchill, who had loyally tried to keep Edward on the throne and avoid the abdication when others were urging it.

(Now I'm going to have to go to the library and pick up a couple of Churchill bios. What a bother. :))


Regards,

Joe
 
I decided to skip over the whole Stephen/Maud thing because (a) it is too damned hard to keep straight in my head and I didn't want to go digging up references and (b) as a practical matter it was not agreed that Maud could and should inherit.

Amen to that - I tell you, those English will come up with any excuse for a civil war... :p

How many have they had anyway? 4, I think...

Anyway, re: Henry VII, yes Joe is correct when he says that his claim to the throne is through right of conquest, post-Bosworth Field.

BUT - the nobles would never have supported him without some substantial claim to the Royal house. His marriage to Elizabeth of York provided that. And having checked, his only claim to the royal bloodline was through the Beaufort line (via his mother), and thus back up the tree to John of Gaunt.

And re: Edward VIII and his supposed warm attitude to Hitler, I had always thought that this was never in play when the 1936 crisis came. It is always tempting to look at political factors when something like this occurs, but I think this was really what it appeared to be - Edward's desire to marry a divorcee (and an AMERICAN to boot).

It was only much later that rumors of Hitler's plans to invade England and keep Edward VIII on the throne as a nazi supporter came to be known, and people started supposing that there must have been a link between the two.
 
Well gosh, that sure is a lot of stuff that happened after my innocent fictional royalty remark. Sweet.

The thing about the movies is that I'm now having trouble remembering what was in the books vs the films and since I never re-read novels, I'm going to have to rely on others to keep it straight.

The impression of Eowyn inheriting the throne came from my memory of the cinematic representation of that scene. I do plan on seeing the movie again (maybe tomorrow). While I don't doubt you're correct over Rohirim politics, it could just be different in the film. Maybe Peter Jackson decided to make Eowyn the heir by Theoden's choice to make her character more sympathetic. But, it wasn't clear cut.
 
Oh, there was one thing I wanted to ask you: you've stated before that Frodo would have been powerful enough to be challenge Sauron if he kept the ring. Why? There was nothing in the book (as I recall) or the film to give the impression that any hobbit, or Frodo in particular, could be so powerful. Gollum is the end result of a hobbit with prolonged exposure to the ring.
 
Oh, there was one thing I wanted to ask you: you've stated before that Frodo would have been powerful enough to be challenge Sauron if he kept the ring.

I don't think I quite said that Frodo could have effectively challenged Sauron if he'd kept the Ring at that point on Mount Doom. But I've said that he might have given Sauron (sans Ring] a run for his money if he'd actually had time to grow accustomed to using the Ring. As it is I think the Nazgul would have had a short unhappy lifed if they'd tried to take it from him by force. In the end I think that Sauron would have been obliged to come and take it from Frodo himself, and while I think he'd win, I also think he'd have to work for his victory.

Why? There was nothing in the book (as I recall) or the film to give the impression that any hobbit, or Frodo in particular, could be so powerful. Gollum is the end result of a hobbit with prolonged exposure to the ring.

The Ring's potential less to do with one's species than with one's person. Sauron may have originally been as powerful as he was due to the kind of being he was (a Maia, one of Tolkein's angelic servants of the One), but when he forged the One Ring he had to transfer much of his native power into the object, in order to be able to control the wearers of the lesser rings. Once he did that he made it possible for any sentient being who wore the Ring to add that power to whatever native power that creature already had.

That's why people like Aragorn are a threat to Sauron and why capture of the Ring is as important to him as its destruction is to his enemies. As long as the Ring remains lost, Sauron is almost literally a shadow of his former self. But as long as it is lost his material power and sway over men is such that he can assemble a conventional army that will allow him to destroy his enemies. If a leading figure among his enemies (Aragorn, Denethor perhaps, certainly Elrond or Galadriel or Gandalf) were to find it and master it, they could defeat Sauron's armies and kill his current body - leaving him to face another several centuries of slowly taking physical form again while his enemy became the new Dark Lord and consolidated his power.

But lesser figures, like Boromir or Eomer or Sam Butterbur, despite being just as Human as Aragorn, could no more defeat Sauron than could Merry or Pippin. Nor could most of the Elves. It is even doubtful that Radagast the Brown, wizard though he was, could have used the Ring as anything like the weapon it had the potential to be. Their selves are somehow smaller, and the Ring bestows power according to the stature of its bearer. It bestows the most power is bestowed on the wise, the learned and the extraordinary - regardless of species.

Frodo is an extraordinary Hobbit, even moreso than his mentor Bilbo. Scholar, Elf-Friend, pupil of a Wizard, seeker-out of wanderers and strangers from beyond the borders of the insular Shire. The whole of his journey is one continuous education and period of personal growth. His ordeal in Morder paradoxically makes his spirit stronger, even as it ravages his body. When he says "I do not choose to do this thing; the Ring is mine" he means it in a way that Gollum doesn't and can't, because Frodo knows what the Ring is. And he has grown to the point where he can actually do something with it. (This growth - the sense in which Frodo grows progressively more Elf-like as the story progresses - also accounts in part for his later passage to the West.)

Gollum, by contrast, was a small, mean soul even when he was more like a hobbit. (Gandalf never says that Smeagol's people were hobbits, by the way, only that they were "of hobbit kind" who may have split off from the main hobbit line in the days of "the father's of the father's of the Stoors." The hobbits themselves, after all, are divided into three "types".)

Smeagol was a sneak, a gossip, an eavesdropper and a petty theif before he murdered Deagol. The Ring did not make Smeagol evil. It amplified his existing tendencies. It mostly corrupted him in the sense that it added an obsessive lust for the Ring itself to his already nasty tendencies, it didn't turn him evil all by itself. Gollum as we see him is not so much a result of the Ring's direct action as it is a by-product of the Ring's natural ability to extend the life of the wearer. It is centuries of living the wretched life Gollum had made for himself, not some alchemy of the Ring, that reduces him to the thin, mad, grapsing thing that Bilbo and Frodo encounter. (He is not improved by his experiences after the lust for the Ring finally drives him out from beneath the mountains in pursuit of Bilbo and he is captured and questioned first by Sauron, then by Aragorn and Gandalf, and then imprisoned by elves of Mirkwood.)

If hobbits have a quality about them that sets them apart from others in relation to the Ring it is not an inability to use it or tendency to be physically twisted by it, but rather an unusal resistance to its lure. Gollum is not driven totally mad by its loss, does not immediately kill himself in despair. Bilbo actually gives it up voluntarily (albeit with help and encouragement from Gandalf) - a moment virtually unique in the long history of the Ring. And because he has a "good heart", he takes "little hurt" from the Ring, despite having it and using it frequently for many years. (Gollum, by contrast, almost never used the Ring once he was settled in his pool beneath the mountains. In the utter darkness there invisibility was no advantate.)

Frodo does the nearly miraculous. He carries the Ring into Mordor, almost never wears it, and doesn't march it straight to Barad'dur and hand it over - which has to be what the Ring is urging him to do so close to its master, so much under the almost gravitational pull of Sauron.

Sam also resists this pull. Sam only carries the Ring very briefly, and uses it only once or twice. He is mostly protected by the fact that his only obession is saving Frodo. But in the book, when Sam puts on the Ring, he has a vision of himself, sword in hand, putting the Shire to rights and overcoming Ted Sandyman and his mill, finally becoming The Gardner of the Shire. That is Sam's idea of omnipotence, and the limit of his vision. If Sam could imagine that, think about what wrongs the deeply moral and deeply learned Frodo might think himself capable of righting - including Sauron's several personal attempts to have Frodo murdered. But Sam also recognizes that "that's where it would start" and realizes it wouldn't end there. Again, even Sam (who has also grown on the journey) can see a vision of power. Gollum's version of this vision is one where he is The Gollum (not Smeagol) and has all the fishes he wants and where the nasty hobbit is punished. Small minds, small dreams, small power. Sam, most realistic about himself as always, realizes the limits of his dream and the danger of its becoming a nightmare. And when the time come he emulates Bilbo in voluntarily handing over the Ring to another. (If anything earns Sam a place in a ship to the West it is this act, just as Bilbo's mercy in sparing Gollum when he might have killed him earns him the "reward" of little harm from the Ring and the chance to rest and heal in the Undying Lands.)

Anyway, that was my thinking in coming to the conclusion that by the end Frodo had become the kind of formidable being who might have genuinely challenged Sauron - although without time to truly master the Ring he could not possibly have beaten him, or even fought him for very long.

Regards,

Joe
 
Small minds, small dreams, small power.

I don't know why, but something about that phrase made me think of Morden and his question, "What do you want?" The danger in the question is in the greatness of the person asked. The greater the person, the greater the dream, the greater the danger.
 

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